Intentional Grounding Rule

upstater1 · Oct 15, 2012

IllegalContact said:
he was being sacked and he threw the ball away.......since nobody was there in the middle, he should have figured there'd be someone in the area in one of the corners .... that is unless he thought they all ran off the field

If he throws to the corners and the ball isn't caught, time runs out.

As it was, one second was left when the ball was thrown over the middle.

ThatllMoveTheChains!!! · Oct 15, 2012

This and offensive PI are rules that I love, but hate how they're enforced.

MoLewisrocks · Oct 15, 2012

PatsFan2 said:
They lost 15 seconds on of those plays why Brady didn't they call a time out earlier is beyond me. To get 0 points on that series alone is mind boggling. The little things killed them yesterday...not a good moment for BB and Brady.

Situational football, that all should have been worked out on the sidelines before the snap. It didn't take Belichick 18 seconds to find an official. He made the decision too late on the spur of the moment. Might have been better off to let the play go there and save the TO to have with 10 seconds left after running that play if it didn't do the trick. That way you get one legitimate shot at the EZ from the 8 with the whole playbook available and still have time via TO for the FG if necessary.

upstater1 · Oct 15, 2012

MoLewisrocks said:
Situational football, that all should have been worked out on the sidelines before the snap. It didn't take Belichick 18 seconds to find an official. He made the decision too late on the spur of the moment. Might have been better off to let the play go there and save the TO to have with 10 seconds left after running that play if it didn't do the trick. That way you get one legitimate shot at the EZ from the 8 with the whole playbook available and still have time via TO for the FG if necessary.

They weren't ready.

The punter committed a colossal error. First play is a long strike down the middle. And both the coaches, the players (milling around) and the QB weren't ready.

Totally uncharacteristic.

Many of us in the gamethread commented that it was totally unPatriot-like and un-Bradylike, and that it would come back to bite them.

BadMoFo · Oct 15, 2012

MoLewisrocks said:
Situational football, that all should have been worked out on the sidelines before the snap. It didn't take Belichick 18 seconds to find an official. He made the decision too late on the spur of the moment. Might have been better off to let the play go there and save the TO to have with 10 seconds left after running that play if it didn't do the trick. That way you get one legitimate shot at the EZ from the 8 with the whole playbook available and still have time via TO for the FG if necessary.

Thought the same thing. Brady was on a roll until Belichick called that timeout there. Not only stopped the momentum, but also gave the defense a chance to regroup. I'm thinking it had a lot to do with how he ****ed up the goal line situation at the end of the half against the Broncos.

upstater1 · Oct 15, 2012

BadMoFo said:
Thought the same thing. Brady was on a roll until Belichick called that timeout there. Not only stopped the momentum, but also gave the defense a chance to regroup. I'm thinking it had a lot to do with how he ****ed up the goal line situation at the end of the half against the Broncos.

The players were also confused getting lined up.

robbomango · Oct 15, 2012

upstater1 said:
If he throws to the corners and the ball isn't caught, time runs out.

As it was, one second was left when the ball was thrown over the middle.

Good point,

BTW, Why was the 1 second taken off the clock? I don't get this part

BrickPat · Oct 15, 2012

upstater1 said:
I like the rule and don't want them to change it BUT it really makes no sense.

The refs are trying to do way too much guessing out there. Now, I have no doubt that Brady tried to get rid of the ball, both at the end of the first half and going all the way back to the Super Bowl. But QBs do those things all the time with no calls. In the SB, in fact, the ball sailed directly over Branch's head as he ran upfield and it landed 10 yards beyond him. ... like no QB has ever overthrown a WR by 10 yards before? How is a ref really supposed to judge that?

What bugs me about the rule is that if a QB in the grasp intentionally grounds it as he's being twisted, it is not a penalty. Why? Because the ref can no longer determine intent because the defender is in control of the QBs body.

Same thing with Brady yesterday. A defender actually had him in his clutches when Brady threw and the defender turned Brady's shoulders around. I do believe Brady had enough command to deliberately throw it away, but do we honestly expect the ref to make that sort of determination right there? The Seahawk had grabbed Brady's shoulder and yanked him.

It makes no sense to me for effectively a sack to be awarded when a defender merely grabs a QB as he's throwing it away, but if a defender grabs and yanks a QB, then the QB escapes effectively without a sack.

It's pure nonsense.

Please just stop...the rule applies to all QBs...Brady made two atypical dumb plays...that does not mean he sucks by default. It's ok to point out the elephant in the room when it comes to those two IGs...he screwed up, period.

rojo8401 · Oct 15, 2012

I have always hated intentional grounding as a rule. A QB should be allowed to throw it away whenever he wants. Judgement calls as to what the QB's intent was on any given play have no place in football.

The loss of down is punishment enough.

brdmaverick · Oct 15, 2012

signbabybrady said:
What I found interesting is that I always thought you could just throw it out the back of the end zone with no penalty?

Yes, I was thinking the same thing. Definitely interpretational. After all, let's think about what intentional grounding was created to prevent.

This penalty was meant to prevent quarterbacks from aimlessly getting rid of the ball TO AVOID A SACK.

At the end of the half it's clear that Brady just wanted to kill the clock (not avoid a sack).

brdmaverick · Oct 15, 2012

Why aren't spikes to kill the clock called 'intentional grounding', I'm not sure any play gets more intentional?

upstater1 · Oct 15, 2012

BrickPat said:
Please just stop...the rule applies to all QBs...Brady made two atypical dumb plays...that does not mean he sucks by default. It's ok to point out the elephant in the room when it comes to those two IGs...he screwed up, period.

Reading comprehension please.

For heaven's sake.

dex13 · Oct 15, 2012

Brady has always had an issue with this rule. He gets called a for international grounding more frequently than any other QB.

QuantumMechanic · Oct 15, 2012

Just for the record, here's the text of the rule from the Official 2012 Rulebook:

Rule 8
Section 2 - Intentional Grounding
Article 1 Definition. It is a foul for intentional grounding if a passer, facing an imminent loss of yardage because of pressure from the defense, throws a forward pass without a realistic chance of completion. A realistic chance of completion is defined as a pass that lands in the direction and vicinity of an originally eligible receiver.

Item 1: Passer or Ball Outside Tackle Position. Intentional grounding will not be called when a passer, who is outside, or has been outside, the tackle position throws a forward pass that lands at or beyond the line of scrimmage, even if no offensive player(s) have a realistic chance to catch the ball (including then the ball lands out of bounds over the sideline or endline). If a loose ball leaves the area bordered by the tackles, this area no longer exists; if the ball is recovered, all intentional grounding rules apply as if the passer is outside this area.

Item 2: Physical Contact. Intentional grounding should not be called if:

(a) the passer initiates his passing motion toward an ineligible receiver and then is significantly affected by physical contact from a defensive player that causes the pass to land in an area that is not in the direction and vicinity of an eligible receiver; or
(b) the passer is out of the pocket, and his passing motion is significantly affected by physical contact from a defensive player that causes the ball to land short of the line of scrimmage.

Item 3: Stopping clock. A player under center is permitted to stop the game legally to save time if, immediately on receiving the snap, he begins a continuous throwing motion and throws the ball directly into the ground.

Item 4: Delayed Spike. A passer, after delaying his passing action for strategic purposes, is prohibited from throwing the ball to the ground in front of him, even though he is under no pressure from defensive rusher(s).

QuantumMechanic · Oct 15, 2012

rojo8401 said:
I have always hated intentional grounding as a rule. A QB should be allowed to throw it away whenever he wants. Judgement calls as to what the QB's intent was on any given play have no place in football.

Despite the name of the penalty, the QB's intent actually doesn't come into play at all. The rule (see my earlier post) makes no reference whatsoever to the QB's intent. It only says that it's IG if a QB, facing an imminent loss of yardage due to defensive pressure, throws the ball nowhere near an eligible receiver. What the QB was thinking or intending doesn't enter into it.

dex13 · Oct 15, 2012

brdmaverick said:
Why aren't spikes to kill the clock called 'intentional grounding', I'm not sure any play gets more intentional?

intentional grounding is based on the idea that the QB is about to be sacked and instead of losing the yards, he throws it away. Spikes to kill the clock are missing this fact.

At the end of a game and in the red zone, this becomes huge. A sack could end the game except the QB threw it away hence the 10 second run off. Throwing it away in the endzone avoids the safety which is why its an automatic safety.

vyrago · Oct 15, 2012

MoLewisrocks said:
Either Gronk made a mistake in judgement or that was one piss poor play call because Brady lacked targets in the one area where he had to have at least one and Branch got held up at the LOS. Coaches can't execute for them but they are supposed to put players in a position to win on every play. The smart playcall there would have been to take the points via FG heading into the locker room. Had they simply done that they'd have won the damn game...despite all the rest.

Agreed and I simply cannot believe that Brady did not hear me yelling "kick the @#*ing field goal!!!!!!!!!!"

upstater1 · Oct 15, 2012

rlcarr said:
Just for the record, here's the text of the rule from the Official 2012 Rulebook:

Rule 8
Section 2 - Intentional Grounding
Article 1 Definition. It is a foul for intentional grounding if a passer, facing an imminent loss of yardage because of pressure from the defense, throws a forward pass without a realistic chance of completion. A realistic chance of completion is defined as a pass that lands in the direction and vicinity of an originally eligible receiver.

Item 1: Passer or Ball Outside Tackle Position. Intentional grounding will not be called when a passer, who is outside, or has been outside, the tackle position throws a forward pass that lands at or beyond the line of scrimmage, even if no offensive player(s) have a realistic chance to catch the ball (including then the ball lands out of bounds over the sideline or endline). If a loose ball leaves the area bordered by the tackles, this area no longer exists; if the ball is recovered, all intentional grounding rules apply as if the passer is outside this area.
Item 2: Physical Contact. Intentional grounding should not be called if:

(a) the passer initiates his passing motion toward an ineligible receiver and then is significantly affected by physical contact from a defensive player that causes the pass to land in an area that is not in the direction and vicinity of an eligible receiver; or
(b) the passer is out of the pocket, and his passing motion is significantly affected by physical contact from a defensive player that causes the ball to land short of the line of scrimmage.
Item 3: Stopping clock. A player under center is permitted to stop the game legally to save time if, immediately on receiving the snap, he begins a continuous throwing motion and throws the ball directly into the ground.
Item 4: Delayed Spike. A passer, after delaying his passing action for strategic purposes, is prohibited from throwing the ball to the ground in front of him, even though he is under no pressure from defensive rusher(s).

If you go to the Super Bowl, the PI call did not fulfill article 1.

As for Item 2, it's laughable. There was physical contact on Brady before he threw the ball. Now, I think he had command there, but you're telling me that if he only held the ball a split second longer, it would not be IG?

This rule is crazy nonsense.

rojo8401 · Oct 15, 2012

rlcarr said:
Despite the name of the penalty, the QB's intent actually doesn't come into play at all. The rule (see my earlier post) makes no reference whatsoever to the QB's intent. It only says that it's IG if a QB, facing an imminent loss of yardage due to defensive pressure, throws the ball nowhere near an eligible receiver. What the QB was thinking or intending doesn't enter into it.

I was referring to the fact that sometimes a QB intends to get the ball to a receiver but it sails on him, his grip slips, hits a pigeon, etc.

A ref should not be able to say "hmmm, that looks suspicious. FLAG". It's all based on speculation and besides, you lose the down anyway so it's not like you're getting away with anything. An incompletion is considered a defensive success by most folks.

Let's take the guessing (even if it's an educated one) out of the ref's arsenal.

Just my opinion.

PatsSweFan · Oct 15, 2012

dex13 said:
Brady has always had an issue with this rule. He gets called a for international grounding more frequently than any other QB.

He also is one of the QB's with fewest sack against him. So...
---
With 10 sec run off rule, why go for it with six sec left? Either you have to throw it away or try to fit it into a tight window or of course move outside the pocket but not really Brady-style.

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