Do you wish the Patriots challenged Goodell (like the Saints are doing)?

JoeSixPat said:

You don't think it would be more difficult for the Saint to target injured players and their injuries if oh, say, they didn't know who was injured where?

Goodell is the Commissioner - it's his policy and he's the one who has increased enforcement and penalties (just in case any coaches seriously consider putting player safety ahead of gambling interests - legal or otherwise.)

Let's put it this way. Let's say Brady sprains his knee in practice.

If you had a choice, you'd really prefer to let the Saints or any other team know that - and know where to target him?

That could mean the difference between Brady making it through the game - or having a career ending injury at the hands of a team targeting his knee.

My preference would be to see Brady's career NOT end due to Goodell's injury reporting policy.

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Goodell has only been the commissioner for 5 years. Injury reporting predates his term by a mile. And while I'd prefer to keep injuries out of it I at least grasp why the league long ago decided it couldn't, fear of players and coaches selling information to gamblers...a scandal that would make all the other gates pale in comparison.

Koma said:

That's one of those things that's never going to make sense.

The BSMW site raised that issue last week: The NFL did not share the evidence it had against the Patriots (beyond the tape leaked to Fox Sports and the Walsh tapes) and people assume the league had much more damning evidence and suppressed it. Yet, some of these same people look at how the league is only showing a portion of the evidence against the Saints and assume the league has no real evidence.

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Yeah, most fans do think their was more evidence on the Patriots. Goodell and the NFL had a responsibility at that point to clear the Patriots name, because they had cooperated. If other fans would read the statement by the NFL:

"The Patriots have fully cooperated and complied with the requirements of the commissioner's decision," the statement said. "All tapes, documents and other records relating to this matter were turned over to the league office and destroyed, and the Patriots have certified in writing that no copies or other records exist.

"League policies on in-game videotaping and audio communication will continue to be closely monitored and strictly enforced with all 32 teams."

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.. and the reason for destroying the tapes:

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello wrote that the reason for the destruction was "so that our clubs would know they no longer exist and cannot be used by anyone.

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"
Then they would know, no other more damning evidence ever existed. None of the statements of the time, that I read, eluded to destroying tapes that had higher grade evidence. So, not sure how another fan could ever say there was. Looks pretty cute and dry to me.

Where the NFL and Goodell kind of screwed the Patriots is statements after the Patriots had already capitulated it seems.

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello was later asked if there was evidence of the Patriots using the tactics in their Super Bowl wins. He declined to comment.

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What the H@ll does that mean? Aiello is one of Goodell top guys. A simple no, or this matter is behind us we don't have any clear proof of that, would have done fine.

I asked Aiello whether the league would make a simple, declarative statement that the spying files proved the Patriots did not cheat in a Super Bowl -- and have not heard back from him.

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This seems like Goodell saying to other fans, " Yeah, they cheated in the Super Bowl, but we burned it, so youll never know" .
If I were BB, which is not possible because I would need a bigger skull case, that would be a slap in the face. I have no idea why they allowed this bad press against BB and the Patriots to evolve, but seems like they did. This doesn't seem like cleaning things up, setting things right, and doing whats best for the league. Again I wonder is the NFL or Goodell just incompetent, or they have a more personal motive for allowing this bad press to continue.

The difference in evidence between the 2 situations is that Goodell has released lots of evidence threw many sources against the Saints. I posted a list. But unlike the NE situation, most if not all of these documents,witnesses, testimony, and etc. have been proven false, been explained, manufactured, or altered by the NFL.
Thats why most are starting to think they have nothing or messed up. As one example with the
Hardgrove tape "give me my money" , voice analysis test prove its not him, players there say he never said that. So, why is the NFL messing up evidence this badly? With the dozens of mistakes like these made by the Goodell, their lawyers, and the NFL , people are starting to question the foundation of Goodell's ruling and fines. Which are clearly based on PFI in NO, and lying.

I might be wrong,but Im not aware of Goodell releasing false evidence in the spygate case.

pherein said:

The difference in evidence between the 2 situations is that Goodell has released lots of evidence threw many sources against the Saints. I posted a list. But unlike the NE situation, most if not all of these documents,witnesses, testimony, and etc. have been proven false, been explained, manufactured, or altered by the NFL.
Thats why most are starting to think they have nothing or messed up. As one example with the
Hardgrove tape "give me my money" , voice analysis test prove its not him, players there say he never said that. So, why is the NFL messing up evidence this badly? With the dozens of mistakes like these made by the Goodell, their lawyers, and the NFL , people are starting to question the foundation of Goodell's ruling and fines. That are clearly based on PFI in NO, and lying.

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See the problem for you remains that you assume evidence has been proven false, etc. when all that has really happened is Vilma and his lawyer and a couple of players have publicly claimed that to be the case... And you are desperate to believe any speculation that undercuts the league's position. BTW the league has stated - through Greg Aiello who is not one of Goodell's top lieutenents but simply the league's PR guy - that no witnesses have retracted their statements. Vilma's lawyer is persuing a strategy, attempting to sway public perception to the point it pressures Goodell to back down for purely PR reasons when he knows their multiple cases, like all of his recent cases against the league, will not ultimately prevail in the court system. Vilma is apparently desperate to get to in to court before camps open and everyone stops caring altogether... His act is growing tiresome and would be comical if not so pathetic. And Brees isn't helping the cause... Support from a vocal minority, the likes of which includes a hack like Florio who is always just stirring the ratings pot, will ultimately do them all more harm than good.

No I don't wish they they had challenged Goodell. The court of public opinion already had fully charged the Pats as guilty before they had all the facts and even if "good" stuff came out later that would help support the Pats, most people would ignore it. Let's face it, unless you are a fan of that particular team, people hate winners.

Also I think an interesting question would be what would have happened had this come up after the Saints scandal. Would Goodell have punished the Pats more, less or the same.

MoLewisrocks said:

See the problem for you remains that you assume evidence has been proven false, etc. when all that has really happened is Vilma and his lawyer and a couple of players have publicly claimed that to be the case... And you are desperate to believe any speculation that undercuts the league's position. BTW the league has stated - through Greg Aiello who is not one of Goodell's top lieutenents but simply the league's PR guy - that no witnesses have retracted their statements. Vilma's lawyer is persuing a strategy, attempting to sway public perception to the point it pressures Goodell to back down for purely PR reasons when he knows their multiple cases, like all of his recent cases against the league, will not ultimately prevail in the court system. Vilma is apparently desperate to get to in to court before camps open and everyone stops caring altogether... His act is growing tiresome and would be comical if not so pathetic. And Brees isn't helping the cause... Support from a vocal minority, the likes of which includes a hack like Florio who is always just stirring the ratings pot, will ultimately do them all more harm than good.

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Well I could say that the problem with you is you assume the NFL is correct, lol. Goes both ways, kind of like a girl I knew in college. I was completely on the NFL side at the beginning, calling for SP head. Only thing Im desperate for is the truth and to put this thing to bed.

Its not an assumption that the NFL has publicly stated that Ornstiens,GW,Vitt, Hardgrove admitted to a PFI in NO, and then later all 4 said they had never said that. The Nfl had Lied or misrepresent their statements . How do you screw that up?

Its not an assumption that the NFL has publicly stated and shown documents that SP, Ornstiens, Vilma, Harper, Vitt, GW contributed to a PFI pool in NO, and then later it is found that this never occurred , and documents altered by the NFL, SP was never sent a email, Harper was payed as part of the PFP, They lied about Ornstiens statements about Vilma.. How do you screw that up?

Its not an assumption the the NFL produced a ledger of the Saints that documented bounty payments.
Later they say "Oops. Oh yeah, it wasn't the Buffalo game, it was actually the Carolina game in 2009! Sorry guys, honest mistake!" . A week later the ledger is debunked in the Carolina game.
How do you screw that up?

Its not an assumption the the NFL stated evidence proving a 3 year PFI in NO. Later its found there is only 3 games in 2009 that are mentioned in the evidence. The only other evidence is in 2011, Aron Rogers, and thats the SP email that was found later was never sent to him. How do you screw that up?

Theirs is a lot more..but I think thats enough to dispute assumption. These were all found out way before Vilmas case, and frankly he's just using what was already proven false. Demeaning the evidence being amassed against the NFL by saying " and a couple of players have publicly claimed that to be the case" makes little sense though.

Once these were refuted , the NFL and Goodell have refused to comment Like in the Hardgrove case, or written it off as a mistake they made. They have never once supported the evidence when found to be false. Never countered it or any witnesses saying they misrepresented or lied about their testimony. This leads to the logical conclusion that the evidence disputed is indeed false.

I might also call it an assumption if their were one piece of evidence found to be misguided, but we are talking about the foundation of the NFL's case, almost all of the evidence is inaccurate or false. Vilma is a very small portion of the leagues findings. But, believe me he has a very strong case. The NFL better have clear reasons for the erroneous statements they put out. I think your right though, Vilma is more of a dog and pony show. The NFL is also trying to sway opinion.

But Like I said Vilma is only like 1/50th of the evidence problem the NFL has to explain to the media, and yes its getting to that point.
I don't see Saints fans or players as desperate or wanting for a cinderella outcome here. We are guilty of a PFP in NO, and everyone admitted that from players to coaches.
What I do see is a fan base and players, not restricted like the coaches punished, and not willing to just sit back , bend over, and take the falsehoods Goodell is spreading about the team. Reputation is a big thing in the southern culture.

If other fans don't like it or Brees being vocal, they really don't care, and don't have a problem fighting this to an ugly end either. This is nothing more than a game of chicken, at this point.
Goodell can prove at any time that he's a good commissioner , without and ego, and cares about the league and its players, when he reduces the fines and admits they might of been incorrect about a PFI in NO. Short of that, or actual proof of a PFI in NO, is not acceptable to fans or the players anymore.

The tape of Williams telling his players to injure 49ers and of the saints player screaming that "Favre is out i want my money" are simply undeniable evidence that the Saints were trying injure players. There is no comparison to the Patriots having a camera where they shouldn't have for one quarter of one game, and the truth is that is all it was, as that was the only offen se that postdated the Goodell memo.

The Tomase claim the Patriots taped anything at the Super Bowl was proven false and he apologized for the article claiming they did and it essentially ruined his career.

Ivan said:

The Tomase claim the Patriots taped anything at the Super Bowl was proven false and he apologized for the article claiming they did and it essentially ruined his career.

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Who cares what a Boston Herald writer says.
NFL spokesman Greg Aiello was asked twice whether the Patriots cheated in the Super Bowl, and Aiello twice declined to either confirm or deny the existence of such evidence, and we all know the NFL does not lie

pherein said:

Who cares what a Boston Herald writer says.
NFL spokesman Greg Aiello was asked twice whether the Patriots cheated in the Super Bowl, and Aiello twice declined to either confirm or deny the existence of such evidence, and we all know the NFL does not lie

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How is that a lie? (this seems to be what you're insinuating) o_0

As far as the whole Saints thing, I'm still just hoping that the end result is that the NFL makes all of the evidence that it collected public. Anything that makes this outcome more likely is fine with me. After Spygate, I don't trust the NFL's capacity to evaluate the seriousness of an offense and levy appropriate punishment. Along similar lines, I also wish that every second of Spygate-related tape had been released, because then everyone would have seen what Belichick has already publicly said: that the footage was basic, low-priority stuff that isn't even illegal to have. He just collected it the wrong way.

BradyFTW! said:

How is that a lie? (this seems to be what you're insinuating) o_0

As far as the whole Saints thing, I'm still just hoping that the end result is that the NFL makes all of the evidence that it collected public. Anything that makes this outcome more likely is fine with me. After Spygate, I don't trust the NFL's capacity to evaluate the seriousness of an offense and levy appropriate punishment. Along similar lines, I also wish that every second of Spygate-related tape had been released, because then everyone would have seen what Belichick has already publicly said: that the footage was basic, low-priority stuff that isn't even illegal to have. He just collected it the wrong way.

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Naw just playing with him. Using the analogy that the NFL couldn't say anything except yes, so they refused to answer the question because they are like Vulcans and can not lie

I feel the same. Im sick of seeing it on TV every day. Not because its negative. I would just rather be watching football related reports, and how our LB core, Toon, and DE's like Cam are shaping up. I haven't heard a decent report in 6 months.
That was my understanding from what he said also. It probably would have been a good thing to release them and vindicate what BB was saying happened. Its pretty obvious no one was attempting to hide anything,and could have avoided countless circular arguments in forum wars.

MoLewisrocks said:

See the problem for you remains that you assume evidence has been proven false, etc. when all that has really happened is Vilma and his lawyer and a couple of players have publicly claimed that to be the case... And you are desperate to believe any speculation that undercuts the league's position. BTW the league has stated - through Greg Aiello who is not one of Goodell's top lieutenents but simply the league's PR guy - that no witnesses have retracted their statements. Vilma's lawyer is persuing a strategy, attempting to sway public perception to the point it pressures Goodell to back down for purely PR reasons when he knows their multiple cases, like all of his recent cases against the league, will not ultimately prevail in the court system. Vilma is apparently desperate to get to in to court before camps open and everyone stops caring altogether... His act is growing tiresome and would be comical if not so pathetic. And Brees isn't helping the cause... Support from a vocal minority, the likes of which includes a hack like Florio who is always just stirring the ratings pot, will ultimately do them all more harm than good.

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He is not assuming.
I'll give you a couple of good examples.

1.- The infamous ledger entry from the Buffalo game.
For starters, the ledger page the NFL "leaked" to Yahoo Sports was, as the NFL put it, transcribed, as in, not original, as in someone in the NFL office filled it in. No actual, legitimate ledger anything has ever been seen by any others than Goddell and his cronies. Now, this ledger page had 4 entries which the NFL alleged illustrated 4 bounty payments, which matched the number of injured Bills players in that game. Unfortunately for the NFL, 3 of those Bills players injured were defensive players. So what does the NFL do? "Re-leak" the transcribed ledger page, but now they say it from a game against Carolina. unfortunately for the NFL, again, only 1 player from Carolina was injured ( I believed he pulled a hammie or something like that, I'd have to go back and look)

2.- "Kill the head".
I love this one. Kill the head. Gregg Williams and his "colorful language". That definitely means the Saints were out to hurt people, right? That's what Goddell, Aiello, White, blogger extraordinaire Peter King, et al said. If you look at the .pdfs the NFL presented as evidence to the NFLPA, there is a slide with a spreadsheet titled "2010 KILL THE HEAD TOTALS"; and who was #1 in total head kills? No other than Jonathan Vilma. So, according to this slide, Vilma is the Saints alpha head-hunter. But then, you look at the number of "head kills"... 62. Yes, 62. Then you look down the list, Malcolm Jenkins had 50, Scott Shanle had 44... you add it up, and according to Goddell, the Saints injured 488 players in 2010. Because that is what "kill the head" means, right? So basically, out of 1,700 or so players, the Saints injured 30% of the NFL.
... maybe, just maybe, "kill the head" just means a good play...

3.- 50,000 pages of "evidence"
Turns out the 50,000 pages of evidence are printouts of every single e-mail sent through @saints.nfl.com the past 3 years. The funny thing is, the most "damning" e-mail evidence (again, transcribed) was given to the NFL by one Rick Cerullo, disgruntled Saints ex-employee who was fired by the Saints after some issues, and has been extremely resentful, especially since his SB ring was a copy with zirconias, not real diamonds.

I can go on and on, but you get the idea.

Tobias Reiper said:

He is not assuming.
I'll give you a couple of good examples.

1.- The infamous ledger entry from the Buffalo game.
For starters, the ledger page the NFL "leaked" to Yahoo Sports was, as the NFL put it, transcribed, as in, not original, as in someone in the NFL office filled it in. No actual, legitimate ledger anything has ever been seen by any others than Goddell and his cronies. Now, this ledger page had 4 entries which the NFL alleged illustrated 4 bounty payments, which matched the number of injured Bills players in that game. Unfortunately for the NFL, 3 of those Bills players injured were defensive players. So what does the NFL do? "Re-leak" the transcribed ledger page, but now they say it from a game against Carolina. unfortunately for the NFL, again, only 1 player from Carolina was injured ( I believed he pulled a hammie or something like that, I'd have to go back and look)

2.- "Kill the head".
I love this one. Kill the head. Gregg Williams and his "colorful language". That definitely means the Saints were out to hurt people, right? That's what Goddell, Aiello, White, blogger extraordinaire Peter King, et al said. If you look at the .pdfs the NFL presented as evidence to the NFLPA, there is a slide with a spreadsheet titled "2010 KILL THE HEAD TOTALS"; and who was #1 in total head kills? No other than Jonathan Vilma. So, according to this slide, Vilma is the Saints alpha head-hunter. But then, you look at the number of "head kills"... 62. Yes, 62. Then you look down the list, Malcolm Jenkins had 50, Scott Shanle had 44... you add it up, and according to Goddell, the Saints injured 488 players in 2010. Because that is what "kill the head" means, right? So basically, out of 1,700 or so players, the Saints injured 30% of the NFL.
... maybe, just maybe, "kill the head" just means a good play...

3.- 50,000 pages of "evidence"
Turns out the 50,000 pages of evidence are printouts of every single e-mail sent through @saints.nfl.com the past 3 years. The funny thing is, the most "damning" e-mail evidence (again, transcribed) was given to the NFL by one Rick Cerullo, disgruntled Saints ex-employee who was fired by the Saints after some issues, and has been extremely resentful, especially since his SB ring was a copy with zirconias, not real diamonds.

I can go on and on, but you get the idea.

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To clean up his post I'll transcribe:

Goodell is faultless and I implicitly trust everything he does.

You can't argue against that, I was just transcribing your words.

Seriously though, why didn't Williams fight it? He has nothing left to lose, unless they ban him in the afterlife. (Does his religion allow for football with 21 virgins?)

Yes, there are jokes in this post, but there is a serious question too.

Tobias Reiper said:

2.- "Kill the head".
I love this one. Kill the head. Gregg Williams and his "colorful language". That definitely means the Saints were out to hurt people, right? That's what Goddell, Aiello, White, blogger extraordinaire Peter King, et al said. If you look at the .pdfs the NFL presented as evidence to the NFLPA, there is a slide with a spreadsheet titled "2010 KILL THE HEAD TOTALS"; and who was #1 in total head kills? No other than Jonathan Vilma. So, according to this slide, Vilma is the Saints alpha head-hunter. But then, you look at the number of "head kills"... 62. Yes, 62. Then you look down the list, Malcolm Jenkins had 50, Scott Shanle had 44... you add it up, and according to Goddell, the Saints injured 488 players in 2010. Because that is what "kill the head" means, right? So basically, out of 1,700 or so players, the Saints injured 30% of the NFL.
... maybe, just maybe, "kill the head" just means a good play...

.

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Anyone who listened to the Williams tape and didn't think he was urging his players to injure 49er players is a complete moron, in addition to the head shots comments he was telling them to bend Vernon Davis' ankles backwards every chance they get, and that has nothing to do with football and is solely an effort to injure after the play, it's disgusting and Williams deserves a lifetime ban because he is a scumbag coach who has done thisa at every stop. If Saints fans want someone to blame they should focus on their coaches for allowing this garbage to go on. Tim Ryan of NFL radio trashed Goodell and defended the Saints 100% until he heard that audio, then he said it was unlike anything he had ever heard in a locker room and called it disgraceful. If a Patriot fan ever tried to defend the cheap shot Brandon Meriweather took at Todd Heap's head I would say the exact same thing, it's indefensible and anyone who tries to defend it is an idiot. Whether Goodell was too harsh or not is up for debate, whether the Saints as a team were deliberately trying to injure opponents isn't, the evidence of that is readily available and those saying otherwise are just homer fans trying to defend the indefensible. Saints fans are now trying to say it wasn't Hargrove whop kept shouting that Favre was out and "I want my money..." over and over, but to this point they miss the fact that someone on that defense was shouting it, Hargrove or not.

MoLewisrocks said:

Goodell has only been the commissioner for 5 years. Injury reporting predates his term by a mile. And while I'd prefer to keep injuries out of it I at least grasp why the league long ago decided it couldn't, fear of players and coaches selling information to gamblers...a scandal that would make all the other gates pale in comparison.

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How long the policy is in place has nothing to do with it.

Goodell is the one who chooses to keep it around and ensure stricter enforcement.

He either keeps a policy, advocates for a change it, or ends it.

Don't be dense. You understand that perfectly well. It just doesn't fit into your neat little argument.

You - like him - are on record expressing higher concern for gambling corruption than player safety. That's not a place you really want to be if you're Goodell.

Sean Payton, Saints coach, reportedly files for divorce - NFL.com

I wonder how his suspension without pay will impact the proceedings...

MoLewisrocks said:

Sean Payton, Saints coach, reportedly files for divorce - NFL.com

I wonder how his suspension without pay will impact the proceedings...

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The better question is if he calls Williams to put a hit out on her.

I keed.

MoLewisrocks said:

Sean Payton, Saints coach, reportedly files for divorce - NFL.com

I wonder how his suspension without pay will impact the proceedings...

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Kind of tacky to post a mans divorce on the NFL site. Seeing as it was hand written by him and his wife on the 26th so they could both remain anonymous. They have had problems for a while now.
I see it as a positive opportunity for him to spend more time thinking about new plays , and bury himself in work. Not that Im selfish.

lurker1965 said:

To clean up his post I'll transcribe:

Goodell is faultless and I implicitly trust everything he does.

You can't argue against that, I was just transcribing your words.

Seriously though, why didn't Williams fight it? He has nothing left to lose, unless they ban him in the afterlife. (Does his religion allow for football with 21 virgins?)

Yes, there are jokes in this post, but there is a serious question too.

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Im positive williams will coach again. Its to much box office for the NFL to pass up. We play the Rams every year. If you have noticed the Rams haven't terminated his contract yet.
There is your indicator.
To have williams return as DC on the Rams having him play the team, coaches, players he is generally responsible for getting disciplined , lol, that will be NFL front page. Then we'll start hearing the reports of how SP and GW did not get along.
GW is on indefinite suspension, and was told by Goodell that any word he says will affect his possible reinstatement. He's the NFL's hostage,lol. He pretty much does and says what they want or he never plays again.
If Goodell suspended him completely from the NFL, which I would like to see, or for 2 season, he would be running his mouth off, like in NO.

Ivan said:

Anyone who listened to the Williams tape and didn't think he was urging his players to injure 49er players is a complete moron, in addition to the head shots comments he was telling them to bend Vernon Davis' ankles backwards every chance they get, and that has nothing to do with football and is solely an effort to injure after the play, it's disgusting and Williams deserves a lifetime ban because he is a scumbag coach who has done thisa at every stop. If Saints fans want someone to blame they should focus on their coaches for allowing this garbage to go on. Tim Ryan of NFL radio trashed Goodell and defended the Saints 100% until he heard that audio, then he said it was unlike anything he had ever heard in a locker room and called it disgraceful. If a Patriot fan ever tried to defend the cheap shot Brandon Meriweather took at Todd Heap's head I would say the exact same thing, it's indefensible and anyone who tries to defend it is an idiot. Whether Goodell was too harsh or not is up for debate, whether the Saints as a team were deliberately trying to injure opponents isn't, the evidence of that is readily available and those saying otherwise are just homer fans trying to defend the indefensible. Saints fans are now trying to say it wasn't Hargrove whop kept shouting that Favre was out and "I want my money..." over and over, but to this point they miss the fact that someone on that defense was shouting it, Hargrove or not.

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Not knocking your opinion, but I think anyone who was as surprised as you are about the tape, has never been in a DC locker room before.
That speech is typical GW. Its really nothing new. He's a vulgar, egotistic ass, and preaches animal brutality.
I remember on our SB run in 2009. The NFL intentionally sanitized his speeches for the America game film. Gw is a throw back, and constantly told players for kill the enemy, crush their bones, rip the QB head off.
IF you research the subject, you will find most players say , its harsh, but nothing they haven't heard from every DC they worked with.
Targeting ACL's, players with concussion, or surgery is not new in football. The Giants STC targeted Kyle Williams in audio after his 4 concussion, and stripped Kyle Williams on the game-deciding punt-return fumble, which was recovered by Thomas.
Im sure your DC has a list of all injured offensive players, and is preaching the same.
If you think not, you might be a little naive.

Most of us believe GW should be banned for life, but I doubt Roger will do that. And about the Hardgrove stuff, you really should research more. He was vindicated of that a while ago, by players there, and a voice expert. Its not him. Which made the NFL look silly again.

PatsSox363804 said:

The better question is if he calls Williams to put a hit out on her.

I keed.

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If the hit is anything like the 49ers game, after that crazy speech, she's completely safe.