RUMOR: COLTS made decision to drop Manning weeks ago..

Wolfpack · Jan 29, 2012

letekro said:
Again, I wish you were the Colts GM, because this decision would set them back 10 years.

And if Luck is a bust, that will set them back 10 years. There's no such thing as a sure thing in the NFL, especially at the QB position. I've seen an awful lot of "sure things" go belly up. If they made that trade and selected some pretty darn decent players with all those picks, then it wouldn't "set them back" 10 years at all - no matter what Luck ended up doing.

letekro said:
No NFL team would pass up on Luck for a speculative 3-4 years with a 35 year old that can't even throw the football after half a year of rehab. You are drastically overrating the possibility of Luck not being a star and drastically underrating the possibility of Manning never playing in the NFL again or being a shell of himself.

And you're overrating the possibility of him being a once-a-generation, future hall of fame superstar.

It's far more likely he'll be the next Carson Palmer than the next Peyton Manning. That's not meant to be criticism, that's just the way it is in the NFL. So he could very easily be a decent QB with a few good seasons, but simply not be considered a "great" QB.

letekro · Jan 29, 2012

Wolfpack said:
And if Luck is a bust, that will set them back 10 years. There's no such thing as a sure thing in the NFL, especially at the QB position. I've seen an awful lot of "sure things" go belly up.

Again, Elway and P. Manning are the only comparables, so you haven't seen a lot of QBs like Luck go belly up. You are just arbitrarily saying he is risky when there is no evidence to suggest that he actually is.

Who all these supposedly sure things at QB that went belly up? Carson Palmer was a mess at USC until his senior year. Ryan Leaf was a late bloomer as well and a head case. JaMarcus Russell was an imbecile. Alex Smith? Come, now. Again, the only QB's that have had Luck's athletic ability, production, and intelligence were Elway and Manning, and Luck is far more accurate then Elway and far more athletic than Manning. Plus, I don't think either were as book smart as Luck is. Again, this is as close to a sure thing as it gets. Much surer than trading back for a bunch of lesser talents.

Ring 6 · Jan 29, 2012

letekro said:
Manning has been carrying the Colts for years. Elway took 3 otherwise highly suspect bronco teams to super bowls. You're taking it for granted that your trade from a dollar bill to a bunch of dimes is "safer" than a once in a generation QB. Even taking Luck, the Colts will still have picks at the top of each round to begin the rebuilding process. Also probably high picks next year as well. How many once in a generation players have been busts in the pros? We are talking about a select group here: Elway, Manning, Lemieux, LeBron, Crosby, Strasbourg. The only real risk with these players is injury. When you are talking about a talent level this high, coupled with the intelligence and maturity to match, you have a very sure thing at the position that determines the success of an NFL franchise. No GM would ever in a million years do what you propose. And if your job was riding on it, you wouldn't either.

We disagree that Luck is a lock. There have been MANY QBs who flopped.
The group of people you are including him with is quite a stretch.

Now just because your opinion is that you would take the QB and put him on the crappy team does not mean you opinion is the only one, so to say every GM would agree with you, and I would too is quite a presumptious statement.
I can tell you that I would not draft Luck, I would trade the pick and build a team.
If Luck doesn't cut it, the Colts will be set back at least 4 years.

YearbookCurfew · Jan 29, 2012

Yeah I'm starting to think Peyton isn't coming back :/ He's a fantastic player and I've enjoyed the competition between him and Brady.

cavtroop · Jan 29, 2012

Wolfpack said:
And if Luck is a bust, that will set them back 10 years.

Nope. Not anymore. With the rookie salary cap, and the maximum contract length of 5 years, thats the most that the Colts will be set back. But with the rookie cap, it won't be horrendous even if he is the next coming of Ryan Leaf.

Still, i think the Colts would be WAY better served trading down for a parcel of picks. Even if Luck is the next HOF QB, the Colts have way way too many holes. Even TB or Manning in their prime would get hammered and squeak out 8 wins at best with that team.

Ring 6 · Jan 29, 2012

cavtroop said:
Nope. Not anymore. With the rookie salary cap, and the maximum contract length of 5 years, thats the most that the Colts will be set back. But with the rookie cap, it won't be horrendous even if he is the next coming of Ryan Leaf.

Still, i think the Colts would be WAY better served trading down for a parcel of picks. Even if Luck is the next HOF QB, the Colts have way way too many holes. Even TB or Manning in their prime would get hammered and squeak out 8 wins at best with that team.

On top of that, many good young QBs have been ruined by being thrown to the wolves and never learning the NFL game properly because they have a poor OL, are always losing and lack weapons to throw to.
Failing on the field, even if just because you were dealt a bad hand, has a huge impact on the development of a QB.

cavtroop · Jan 29, 2012

AndyJohnson said:
On top of that, many good young QBs have been ruined by being thrown to the wolves and never learning the NFL game properly because they have a poor OL, are always losing and lack weapons to throw to.
Failing on the field, even if just because you were dealt a bad hand, has a huge impact on the development of a QB.

Agreed. Even if Luck is the next top-tier QB, we may never find out. Playing on that god-awful team, behind that god-awful OL may ruin him forever in a year of two of 4 win and 100 sack seasons.

Wolfpack · Jan 29, 2012

letekro said:
Again, Elway and P. Manning are the only comparables, so you haven't seen a lot of QBs like Luck go belly up. You are just arbitrarily saying he is risky when there is no evidence to suggest that he actually is.

Every single #1 pick is a risk. I'm not being arbitrary at all.

letekro said:
Who all these supposedly sure things at QB that went belly up? Carson Palmer was a mess at USC until his senior year. Ryan Leaf was a late bloomer as well and a head case. JaMarcus Russell was an imbecile. Alex Smith? Come, now. Again, the only QB's that have had Luck's athletic ability, production, and intelligence were Elway and Manning,

Bullcrap. Luck didn't even win the Heisman Trophy, so there's plenty of people that think someone else has more athletic ability, production and intelligence.

letekro said:
and Luck is far more accurate then Elway and far more athletic than Manning. Plus, I don't think either were as book smart as Luck is. Again, this is as close to a sure thing as it gets. Much surer than trading back for a bunch of lesser talents.

Wow, that's amazing how you are able to see with such great hindsight! It's pretty easy predicting successes and failures 10 years after the fact, huh? I notice you didn't give an opinion on Bradford, Stafford or Newton. It's a bit trickier with less hindsight, huh?

Fact is there's no such thing as a sure thing and the NFL is the least sure of all. And fact also is that it's much more likely Luck is more Carson Palmer than Peyton Manning. That' not meant to be an insult, but the guy hasn't even been drafted yet and you've already got him going straight to Canton.

He could be a decent QB but still not live up to the impossibly high standard you are setting for him.

RIpats88 · Jan 29, 2012

honestly, the way Irsay is handeling this situation and gutting the team..is a totally disrespect to Manning....a surefire HOF Quarterback and one of the best.

manning is the only reason anyone cares about Indianapolis, and the only thing that makes/made them relevant, heck the only reason they have a superbowl...lets be honest..its not like that City is a desireable place to go to...the reason talented players go there is to play with manning.

and with the way they are kicking manning out the door like hes a nobody..what Free agent is going to want to play there?? this organization is going to be a mess for years.

put it in perspective guys..imagine if in 2008 when brady went down Kraft/belichick decided to tank the season and grab a #1 pick...and use that pick to draft a QB and just dump brady to the curb...because hey, theres no guarantee he was going to return to form...could you imagine how the organization would be looked at?? but Kraft/belichick have at least pride.

irsay doesnt..a much smarter idea would be to trade that #1 pick and get several first rounders and build a TEAM...draft a qb(probably not luck but someone solid) who can learn behind manning for the next 3 years or so and come out a ready QB.

instead Irsay's idea is to draft Luck and throw him right into the fire...with all the holes in this roster I dont see that team being good for awhile and it may hurt luck in the longrun

Ring 6 · Jan 29, 2012

RIpats88 said:
honestly, the way Irsay is handeling this situation and gutting the team..is a totally disrespect to Manning....a surefire HOF Quarterback and one of the best.

manning is the only reason anyone cares about Indianapolis, and the only thing that makes/made them relevant, heck the only reason they have a superbowl...lets be honest..its not like that City is a desireable place to go to...the reason talented players go there is to play with manning.

and with the way they are kicking manning out the door like hes a nobody..what Free agent is going to want to play there?? this organization is going to be a mess for years.

put it in perspective guys..imagine if in 2008 when brady went down Kraft/belichick decided to tank the season and grab a #1 pick...and use that pick to draft a QB and just dump brady to the curb...because hey, theres no guarantee he was going to return to form...could you imagine how the organization would be looked at?? but Kraft/belichick have at least pride.

irsay doesnt..a much smarter idea would be to trade that #1 pick and get several first rounders and build a TEAM...draft a qb(probably not luck but someone solid) who can learn behind manning for the next 3 years or so and come out a ready QB.

instead Irsay's idea is to draft Luck and throw him right into the fire...with all the holes in this roster I dont see that team being good for awhile and it may hurt luck in the longrun

What good would it do for the Colts to pay a 28 mill bonus to a guy who may never play another snap?

Reardless of what you feel about their relevance, they still need to compete in the future. I'm sure many Packer fans thought the Pack would go right back to the misery of the 70s and 80s without Favre.
Your argument seems to be the Colts should secede from the league if Manning can't play.
By the way, what Free Agents went to Indy when Manning was there?

letekro · Jan 29, 2012

Wolfpack said:
Every single #1 pick is a risk. I'm not being arbitrary at all.
Bullcrap. Luck didn't even win the Heisman Trophy, so there's plenty of people that think someone else has more athletic ability, production and intelligence.
Wow, that's amazing how you are able to see with such great hindsight! It's pretty easy predicting successes and failures 10 years after the fact, huh? I notice you didn't give an opinion on Bradford, Stafford or Newton. It's a bit trickier with less hindsight, huh?

Fact is there's no such thing as a sure thing and the NFL is the least sure of all. And fact also is that it's much more likely Luck is more Carson Palmer than Peyton Manning. That' not meant to be an insult, but the guy hasn't even been drafted yet and you've already got him going straight to Canton.

He could be a decent QB but still not live up to the impossibly high standard you are setting for him.

The Heisman Trophy? LOL

Palmer, Bradford, Stafford and Newton all had major question marks and were nowhere near the prospect Luck is. Is this a joke? Take a look at Carson Palmer's first 3 years at USC.

By your logic, you would never draft a QB high in the draft, or anyone else for that matter, because there is too much of a "risk." You would be constantly drafting down in the draft. While you can have success doing that, it is by no means risk-free because you're really in crapshoot mode taking QBs further down the draft.

RIpats88 · Jan 29, 2012

Im not sure anyone is saying "dont take luck" but this idea that luck is a surefire hit and the next elite QB is a stretch..he very well may be, and he very well may not be.

I think most people are questioning kicking a surefire HOF QB out the door while dragging him through the dirt on the way. To pick up what "MAY" be the next best thing is the wrong way to handle the situation.

look, I have no problem with the Colts wanting to look at the future and move on from manning..but theres a right and a wrong way to handle this...and Irsay is handeling this the wrong way in my opinion

like I said, imagine when the time comes, Kraft calling brady a "politician" in the media and kicking him on his way out....this colts organization is dysfunctional.

Ring 6 · Jan 29, 2012

RIpats88 said:
Im not sure anyone is saying "dont take luck" but this idea that luck is a surefire hit and the next elite QB is a stretch..he very well may be, and he very well may not be.

I think most people are questioning kicking a surefire HOF QB out the door while dragging him through the dirt on the way. To pick up what "MAY" be the next best thing is the wrong way to handle the situation.

look, I have no problem with the Colts wanting to look at the future and move on from manning..but theres a right and a wrong way to handle this...and Irsay is handeling this the wrong way in my opinion

like I said, imagine when the time comes, Kraft calling brady a "politician" in the media and kicking him on his way out....this colts organization is dysfunctional.

That is not my view.
I think the Colts have to move on from Manning, because they put themselves in the position with that contract to have to pay 28,000,000 without any assiurance he can ever play again.
However, I also think they should trade the 1st pick because with the new roolkie cap they will get record setting value for it, and can use that to rebuild a woeful roster rather than set the #1 QB up to fail with a poor team around him.
Luck's chance of being a good QB will be severly hampered if he becomes a Colt.

ctpatsfan77 · Jan 29, 2012

Deus Irae said:
The type of injury Manning is dealing with has been a game changer.

Taking that out of the equation, though, I still don't see why it was far more likely that the Patriots would let Brady walk after the 2010 season. . . .

Deus Irae · Jan 29, 2012

ctpatsfan77 said:
Taking that out of the equation, though, I still don't see why it was far more likely that the Patriots would let Brady walk after the 2010 season. . . .

Because the Patriots are/were more likely to stick to a budget, and BB is considered to be much more bloodless when it comes to cutting/trading big names.

Wolfpack · Jan 29, 2012

letekro said:
The Heisman Trophy? LOL

Yeah, you may have heard of it. It's probably the most prestigious individual award out there.

letekro said:
By your logic, you would never draft a QB high in the draft, or anyone else for that matter, because there is too much of a "risk."

You're putting words in my mouth. I would take everything on a case-by-case basis, depending on what other teams offered me.

letekro said:
You would be constantly drafting down in the draft.

Wow. Constantly trading down in the draft to get more picks. Gee, I sure can't think of any team who uses that strategy year in and year out. Nope, sure can't. Nobody I know is constantly trading down. Nope. Nobody.

Gwedd · Jan 30, 2012

However, I also think they should trade the 1st pick because with the new roolkie cap they will get record setting value for it, and can use that to rebuild a woeful roster rather than set the #1 QB up to fail with a poor team around him.
Luck's chance of being a good QB will be severly hampered if he becomes a Colt.

That's not far off from what happened to Drew when he was drafted by New England. Imagine how much better his career might have been, maybe even to winning a Superbowl, if he'd had a solid O-line to consistently protect him?

True enough, Bledsoe had his faults. he could and did hold onto the ball too long, or try and make a play when absolutely no one was open, but he also spent an awful lot of time flat on his back courtesy of some defensive player and as often as not it was because the O-Line let him by/through/etc.

I happen to agree with you that it would make a LOT more sense to beef up the Colts as a solid team before bringing in a new QB and throwing him to the wolves.

ctpatsfan77 · Jan 30, 2012

Deus Irae said:
Because the Patriots are/were more likely to stick to a budget, and BB is considered to be much more bloodless when it comes to cutting/trading big names.

OTOH, that's ignoring that BB has said that some players are "priceless," as it were, when it comes to a trade, and that Brady was not solely concerned with getting paid. [Obviously, if the Pats were offering him, say, just $10M/yr, I could understand it.]

It also suggests the obvious questions of "Who would they have had start instead?" and "Would Belichick survive the inevitable fan uprising?"

JustEndTheSeason · Jan 30, 2012

Sad if true. Big fan of watching Manning play, and nothing is better than Colts Patriots games. Seeing him in a Dolphins jersey or something won't be nearly as cool... if he ever plays again. Hope he does.

MoLewisrocks · Jan 30, 2012

AndyJohnson said:
On top of that, many good young QBs have been ruined by being thrown to the wolves and never learning the NFL game properly because they have a poor OL, are always losing and lack weapons to throw to.
Failing on the field, even if just because you were dealt a bad hand, has a huge impact on the development of a QB.

I've been following this Colts season and transition closely and the latest beyond Manning may be done is that they have completely turned over the FO and coaching staff going largely with first timers or short timers from wildly talented teams and they appear headed for a transition to a 3-4 defense on top of all the other changes... You gotta walk before you run, so this could be beyond interesting. They have so few personnel who could in some fashion be transitioned out of that Tampa 2 defense that was already pretty pourous and in need of upgrading. And they are set to lose some veteran pieces on an offense that Arians will likely try to maintain (he was Manning's QB coach his first 3 seasons and a Tom Moore disciple versed in the simplistic but talent centric timing offense - one reason the Rooney's decided to move on). But unless they can run the ball, and they aren't currently built to, they better be able to pass protect, and they haven't done a great job of that for a couple of years now.

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