Sportscenter: Kiper has us picking......

Mark Morse · Jan 18, 2006

BelichickFan said:
He probably forgot to look at how many OG we've taken before picking Mankins too. And I don't care if he was a LT at Fresno State, it doesn't look like he's moving outside any time soon. Belichick is no dummy - he has Vrabel inside now, if he stays with that he's going to need an OLB who can be ready to play soon. And if not he'll need an ILB ready to play soon.

Mankins has played terrific at LG, but he almost eneded up at LT for the Broncos game. Mile Reiss reported today that Mankins took all the pre-game snaps at LT because Ashworth was too sick. Perhaps Ashworth should have not played. Gutsy performance on Ashworths part.

Bottom line is that BB DOES NOT draft college OG's. He drafts Tackles and makes them Guards.

Mark Morse · Jan 18, 2006

Kiper can be somewhat of a pompous ass but he does know talent. He was the only pronosticator to project Eugene Wilson as a 1st round talent. We traded away our pick to Ba;timore (so they could take Boller) and moved up in the 2nd round to take Wilson.

I am not at all surprised to see Kiper projecting Carpenter to us. In my initial look at the draft I also focused on Carpenter. He looks to be a perfect fit as an OLB/DE hybrid in a 3-4.

What does surprise and disappoint me is Ko Simpson and LenDale White are projected so high. Those are two players I wouldn't hesitate on at #21.

Kiwi scares me. I was not impressed with his senior season. I was very disappointed in his play in the big game against Virginia Tech. He was suppossed to be matched up against D'Brick Ferguson. Ferguson was out and some ham and egger made Kiwi a fool. Yeah the stiff tried to ruin Kiwi's career with a cheap shot at his knee.

TruthSeeker · Jan 18, 2006

"Stovall is a big receiver who has a knack for going up and outfighting defenders for the ball and because Weis and Belichick are so close, Stovall is a player the Patriots could become more intrigued with as the draft draws near. "

That's the immediate thing that came to my mind when Bailey intercepted that ball. Not Stovall necessarily (Though I am a huge Stovall fan, I think he will be there in the 3rd & 4th rounds), but what would have happened if we even had 1 average to above average sized WR for Brady to pass to. Imagine if Brady was throwing to Plaxico Burress (I know, bad example) in that situation. Nobody realizes that Brady has one more disadvantage than most QB's, he has NEVER had an above average sized WR to throw to, to catch those errant bad throws that happen once in a while. Andre Davis may be 6'1", but he hardly seems to be a #1 or #2 NFL receiver, at least not yet.

In fact, I'd venture to say that Eli Manning's completion % would be even lower than 50% without Burress & Toomer as his starting WR's.

I'd be thrilled with a LB or DB in round 1, LB or DB in round 2, and Stovall in round 3. For those stuck on the OL idea, switch a FA LB, DB, or OL with the draft choices. What ever we do in FA, changes what we do in the draft, IMO.

upstater1 · Jan 18, 2006

Box_O_Rocks said:
OLB Willie McGinest 6-5, 270
OLB Shawne Merriman 6-4, 272

I consider both these players tweeners. If you watch Willie, he plays on the LOS 90% of the time.

Box_O_Rocks · Jan 18, 2006

upstater1 said:
I consider both these players tweeners. If you watch Willie, he plays on the LOS 90% of the time.

Where do you want an OLB to play?

primetime · Jan 18, 2006

Mark Morse said:
Kiwi scares me. I was not impressed with his senior season. I was very disappointed in his play in the big game against Virginia Tech. He was suppossed to be matched up against D'Brick Ferguson. Ferguson was out and some ham and egger made Kiwi a fool. Yeah the stiff tried to ruin Kiwi's career with a cheap shot at his knee.

That was a dirty cheap shot. Again, as a BC student I think this is heresy, but here goes... Kiwanuka will be a good pro and speaking from personal experience he's an intelligent guy with alot of character, but he won't live up to expectations of being this dominant pass rusher. All the physical tools in the world, but he's disappeared for entire games. He has measurables but his production isn't all there, and I don't think he'll be a superstar in the pros. He has a high bust chance, too, like a Mamula.

I don't know what BC team these experts were watching but on production alone I wouldn't rate Kiwanuka anywhere near someone like Tamba Hali or Mario Williams. He's a 4-3 DE, and has repeatedly said he will only play with his hand on the ground in the pros. He occasionally would stand up and play as a hybrid, but dropping back into coverage he never did anything special. He has the tools to be Jevon Kearse, but he also has the potential to be Mike Mamula (and Mamula was more productive than he was in college).

patsfan13 · Jan 18, 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by upstater1
Hali is purely a DE. He can't play at OLB. Hali is at his minimum weight right now. Remember, this kid played three years at DT at 290 pounds. In the NFL, he will rise to 275 280. I see him more as a Ty Warren type who could easily play end in a 3-4. I've yet to see a 275 OLB in this league. if one comes along, everybody better run the other way.

If we pick Hali this year, that means we ain't signing Seymour.

Hali, by the way, was an excellent run stuffer during his years playing DT.

Box O Rocks"
OLB Willie McGinest 6-5, 270
OLB Shawne Merriman 6-4, 272
__________________
"

Bingo, tweener is what we need to start grooming to replace Willie Mac in a couple of years.

shakadave · Jan 18, 2006

Box_O_Rocks said:
Where do you want an OLB to play?

I don't like the thought of keeping Vrabel inside just because he's good at it. He'll get beaten into retirement 2 years quicker inside, and we'd lose out on a huge talent. Instead, keep him outside and get someone else (or Beisel eventually) to get punched in the head inside, a la Ted Johnson.

RayClay · Jan 19, 2006

mtbykr said:
Carpenter is a stud for sure,,,but my gut tells me that we take Kiwanuka!

6'7" 262. Where does he play in the 3-4 defense?

ilduce06410 · Jan 19, 2006

ever hear of ted "mad stork" hendricks?

RayClay said:
6'7" 262. Where does he play in the 3-4 defense?

turned that that The Stork was as good a pass rusher at OLB in a 4-3 as he was at DE.
long arms, great reach, a real hitter, tough to get past on sweps.
i think we need a pass rusher or we should pass on drafting another DL. we don't need another Ty Warren, solid as he is. we need impact players. DBs, RBs, LBs, OLs would be ok.
of course i was in the "who's he?" group about Mankins until camp started.
i sure would like to see a couple stud DBs, 6-1, 205, who can run.
of course we gotta see all the BB traits in their reports....."smart player",..."leader, team co-captain".... "a bit mean"..."a workout warrior"....
more so than "exceptional athlete, spectacular plays, or needs seasoniing".
if they're in the ddraft, BB/SP will find them.
we'll see.

Ochmed Jones · Jan 19, 2006

Stay away from Carpenter

Just because a guy is the right size, does not make him a Patriots type player. Case in point Carpenter. If you watch him play, you'll notice immediately that he does not posess the instincts to play for the Pats. All his presnap cues are fed to him from Schlegel. The only time he appears to have a preshap clue is when his responsibilities are limited. IE: pure pass rush. Also the few times I saw him in pass coverage, he was dreadful. TEs and RBs would have a field day with this guy covering them in the flats. PS: Of all the OSU LBs in teh draft this year, the only one I think could play for the Pats is Schlegel. Depending on how he runs, he could be an ideal 7th round pick.)

Second point, we have a Kiwi on our roster now. His name is Hill. If you complain because Hill doesn't get any reps, then you'll complain if we take Kiwi, because he won;t see any either.

Third point: Stovall. Simply possession type routes and he will need someone to it out for him. (TE/RB) I was not high on him until I read that he was considered more "quick" than fast. Those are the types BB likes, not the lumberjacks (Terrell) or long striders. He wants the ability to create seperation with quickness. (This helps save Brady's life)

Fourth point: Kiper. He is one of thousands of great talent evaluators, but the reason he failed as a scout with Baltimore and why no professionals pay him much respect is he CAN NOT project a player and that player's talent set into a particular team's schemes. Part of the reason is he does not know jacksquat about the game but the biggest reason is he's too rigid in his evaluations. He tries to bend schemes to the player instead of the projecting the player in the scheme. I believe a huge chunk of BB/Pioli's success is their ability to find players that fit BBs schemes.

ilduce06410 · Jan 19, 2006

and this thing about Kiper?

Ochmed Jones said:
Fourth point: Kiper. He is one of thousands of great talent evaluators, but the reason he failed as a scout with Baltimore and why no professionals pay him much respect is he CAN NOT project a player and that player's talent set into a particular team's schemes. Part of the reason is he does not know jacksquat about the game but the biggest reason is he's too rigid in his evaluations. He tries to bend schemes to the player instead of the projecting the player in the scheme. I believe a huge chunk of BB/Pioli's success is their ability to find players that fit BBs schemes.

why aren't you tossing roses at kiper's feet?
look, he's got great hair, shows up on time, doesn't puke on his sneakers, and string 20-30 words together on camera. that, my friend, is talent.

primetime · Jan 20, 2006

Kiwi weighs 260, while Hill weighs, what, 320? That's a huge difference. They're very different types of players.

PatsRI · Jan 20, 2006

The list of underclassmen who declared and received "special eligibility"

http://www.patriots.com/news/index.cfm?ac=latestnewsdetail&pid=15197&pcid=43

From pats.com:

Bing, Darnell DB Southern California
Brockington, Cornell RB Connecticut
Bush, Reggie RB Southern California
Calhoun, Brian RB Wisconsin
Cromartie, Antonio DB Florida State
Davis, Vernon TE Maryland
Drew, Maurice RB UCLA
Edwards, Ray DE Purdue
Fasano, Anthony TE Notre Dame
Gordon, Charles DB Kansas
Hall, Willie T Middle Tennessee
Hester, Devin WR Miami
Holmes, Santonio WR Ohio State
Jackson, Chad WR Florida
Jacobs, Omar QB Bowling Green
Johnson, Cornell RB Indiana State
Johnson, Marquis WR Texas Tech
Joseph, Johnathan DB South Carolina
Justice, Winston T Southern California
Kirsch, Brandon QB Purdue
Lee, Greg WR Pittsburgh
Maroney, Laurence RB Minnesota
Marshall, Richard DB Fresno State
Martin, Derrick DB Wyoming
Matua, Fred G Southern California
McCargo, John DT North Carolina State
McClover, Stanley DE Auburn
McDaniel, Tony DT Tennessee
Morris, Derek T North Carolina State
Ngata, Haloti DT Oregon
Parham, Kai LB Virginia
Payne, Bobby DE Middle Tennessee
Pollard, Bernard DB Purdue
Pope, Leonard TE Georgia
Quillen, Drouzon WR Louisiana-Monroe
Rodgers, Cory WR Texas Christian
Simpson, Ko DB South Carolina
Sims, Ernie LB Florida State
Smith, Daniel WR Idaho
Smith, Rob G Tennessee
Tulloch, Stephen LB North Carolina State
Vick, Marcus QB Virginia Tech
Webb, Dee DB Florida
White, LenDale RB Southern California
Whitner, Donte DB Ohio State
Williams, Mario DE North Carolina State
Youboty, Ashton DB Ohio State
Young, Vince QB Texas

This is from Todd McShay Scouts Inc regarding the underclassmen and this draft:
Biggest Position Boosts
1. Running Back
Memphis' DeAngelo Williams is a star in his own right, but even he will get upstaged by USC junior Reggie Bush, who is expected to be the top selection in this year's draft. Williams should come off the board within the top 10 picks, with two more junior RBs (Minnesota's Laurence Maroney and USC's LenDale White) likely to go in the first round. Wisconsin's Brian Calhoun and UCLA's Maurice Drew add rare depth to the 2006 running back class.

2. Safety
Only one safety has been selected in the first round of the last three drafts. Texas' Michael Huff figures to be the lone selection this year, but he could be joined by junior entries Darnell Bing (USC) and/or Ko Simpson (South Carolina). Ohio State's Donte Whitner and Purdue's Bernard Pollard are also Day One safety prospects who greatly improve the overall quality of this class.
3. Cornerback
This year's cornerback class still pales in comparison to some of the recent groups, but the addition of eight juniors at least raises the class to a level of respectability. Ashton Youboty (Ohio State), Antonio Cromartie (FSU), Dee Webb (Florida), Richard Marshall (Fresno State), Jonathan Joseph (South Carolina) and Charles Gordon (Kansas) are all Day One prospects with NFL starting potential.

Seems like he thinks it's not a great year for CB like some have said.

marty · Jan 20, 2006

PatsRI said:
The list of underclassmen who declared and received "special eligibility"

http://www.patriots.com/news/index.cfm?ac=latestnewsdetail&pid=15197&pcid=43

From pats.com:

Bing, Darnell DB Southern California
Brockington, Cornell RB Connecticut
Bush, Reggie RB Southern California
Calhoun, Brian RB Wisconsin
Cromartie, Antonio DB Florida State
Davis, Vernon TE Maryland
Drew, Maurice RB UCLA
Edwards, Ray DE Purdue
Fasano, Anthony TE Notre Dame
Gordon, Charles DB Kansas
Hall, Willie T Middle Tennessee
Hester, Devin WR Miami
Holmes, Santonio WR Ohio State
Jackson, Chad WR Florida
Jacobs, Omar QB Bowling Green
Johnson, Cornell RB Indiana State
Johnson, Marquis WR Texas Tech
Joseph, Johnathan DB South Carolina
Justice, Winston T Southern California
Kirsch, Brandon QB Purdue
Lee, Greg WR Pittsburgh
Maroney, Laurence RB Minnesota
Marshall, Richard DB Fresno State
Martin, Derrick DB Wyoming
Matua, Fred G Southern California
McCargo, John DT North Carolina State
McClover, Stanley DE Auburn
McDaniel, Tony DT Tennessee
Morris, Derek T North Carolina State
Ngata, Haloti DT Oregon
Parham, Kai LB Virginia
Payne, Bobby DE Middle Tennessee
Pollard, Bernard DB Purdue
Pope, Leonard TE Georgia
Quillen, Drouzon WR Louisiana-Monroe
Rodgers, Cory WR Texas Christian
Simpson, Ko DB South Carolina
Sims, Ernie LB Florida State
Smith, Daniel WR Idaho
Smith, Rob G Tennessee
Tulloch, Stephen LB North Carolina State
Vick, Marcus QB Virginia Tech
Webb, Dee DB Florida
White, LenDale RB Southern California
Whitner, Donte DB Ohio State
Williams, Mario DE North Carolina State
Youboty, Ashton DB Ohio State
Young, Vince QB Texas

This is from Todd McShay Scouts Inc regarding the underclassmen and this draft:
Biggest Position Boosts
1. Running Back
Memphis' DeAngelo Williams is a star in his own right, but even he will get upstaged by USC junior Reggie Bush, who is expected to be the top selection in this year's draft. Williams should come off the board within the top 10 picks, with two more junior RBs (Minnesota's Laurence Maroney and USC's LenDale White) likely to go in the first round. Wisconsin's Brian Calhoun and UCLA's Maurice Drew add rare depth to the 2006 running back class.

2. Safety
Only one safety has been selected in the first round of the last three drafts. Texas' Michael Huff figures to be the lone selection this year, but he could be joined by junior entries Darnell Bing (USC) and/or Ko Simpson (South Carolina). Ohio State's Donte Whitner and Purdue's Bernard Pollard are also Day One safety prospects who greatly improve the overall quality of this class.
3. Cornerback
This year's cornerback class still pales in comparison to some of the recent groups, but the addition of eight juniors at least raises the class to a level of respectability. Ashton Youboty (Ohio State), Antonio Cromartie (FSU), Dee Webb (Florida), Richard Marshall (Fresno State), Jonathan Joseph (South Carolina) and Charles Gordon (Kansas) are all Day One prospects with NFL starting potential.

Seems like he thinks it's not a great year for CB like some have said.

Isn't this a lot of underclassmen ????

PatsRI · Jan 20, 2006

PatsChick87 said:
Isn't this a lot of underclassmen ????

I believe they have said it is a large group. Heck 5 guys just from USC.

ilduce06410 · Jan 20, 2006

another usc non-starter?

PatsRI said:
I believe they have said it is a large group. Heck 5 guys just from USC.

talk about stocking players. i didn't think schools could do that anymore.this was commonplace on college teams as late as the '60 and '70's, but NCAA reduced # of scholarshipss to keep teams from doing this. the old joke was: Q: "what's the second best team in the country? A: the ohio state second string".
first we have matt cassell, who's good enough to make an nfl roster but not good enough to start at usc. now we get a guy who's not good enough to start at usc but who's good enough to be a day 1 draft pick.

antonio cromartie from FSU is fast and big 6-3, 210. he's the kind of DB i've been writing about ever since the appearance of duane starks. ashton youboti out of ohio state is 6-1, 188 and a texas boy (that's the great state of texas). they're always good hitters (smile).
i want to watch those two.

upstater1 · Jan 20, 2006

patsfan13 said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstater1
Hali is purely a DE. He can't play at OLB. Hali is at his minimum weight right now. Remember, this kid played three years at DT at 290 pounds. In the NFL, he will rise to 275 280. I see him more as a Ty Warren type who could easily play end in a 3-4. I've yet to see a 275 OLB in this league. if one comes along, everybody better run the other way.

If we pick Hali this year, that means we ain't signing Seymour.

Hali, by the way, was an excellent run stuffer during his years playing DT.

Box O Rocks"
OLB Willie McGinest 6-5, 270
OLB Shawne Merriman 6-4, 272
__________________
"

Bingo, tweener is what we need to start grooming to replace Willie Mac in a couple of years.

Well, as I said, the tweener isn't going to be Hali. He doesn't have that speed. He was their DT for 3 years. If he's a tweener, he's 'tween DT and DE, not DE and OLB. Hali is more like Ty Warren than he is like Willie McGinest. I've watched him play every game for 4 years, many of them live. So, anyone who thinks Hali is our next Willie McGinest is just wrong. We might as well move Jarvis Green to OLB.

Sportscenter: Kiper has us picking......

Mark Morse

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TruthSeeker

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upstater1

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Box_O_Rocks

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primetime

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patsfan13

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shakadave

In the Starting Line-Up

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ilduce06410

Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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ilduce06410

Third String But Playing on Special Teams

primetime

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marty

In the Starting Line-Up

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ilduce06410

Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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