Alone atop the AFC at 11-3

patsfaninpittsburgh said:

Anybody who honestly thinks that a "career day" consists of racking up stats in the 4th quarter while getting blown and the game decided has ZERO business evaluating anything.

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Um, wait, I'm sorry. You don't think the bolded part represents a significant achievement?

(somebody had to say it)

ivanvamp said:

Henne threw for 416 yards. Of those, 101 came in "garbage time". At 5:55 of the 4th quarter, the score was NE 31, Mia 17, and the Dolphins had the ball on the NE 1 yard line. The previous play, Miami scored a TD but the call was reversed and the ball was placed on the 1. They were inches from cutting the lead to 1 touchdown with nearly 6 minutes left. So in just over 3 1/2 quarters, Henne threw for 315 yards.

Young threw for 400 yards. Garbage time began in that game at the 11:27 mark of the 4th quarter, when NE went up 31-13. From that point on, Young threw for 123 yards, meaning that for just over 3 quarters, Young threw for 277 yards. *VINCE YOUNG* threw for 277 yards. Guess how many 277+ passing yard games Young has had in his career. I'll tell you: 3. In 60 career games. So just twice in his career besides that game had he ever thrown for 277 yards.

Orlovsky threw for 353 yards. Garbage time began with about 4:08 left in the 3rd quarter when the Pats went up 31-3. From that point on, Orlovsky threw for 252 yards, meaning that before then, for nearly 3 quarters, the Pats held Orlovsky to just 101 yards passing. So you're 100% correct about this one.

But the other two? No, you're wrong. Young and Henne both threw for a ton of yards when the game was still in question and most definitely not in garbage time.

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If you are going to talk about Young's career passing to compare vs. the Pats. The Pats didn't do as bad vs. Rex Grossman as people make it out to be. He threw for 252 yards vs. the Pats, but he threw for 305 yards vs. the Giants, 291 vs. the Cards, 250 vs. Dallas the first time, 292 vs. Dallas the second time, and 314 vs. the Seahawks. Considering he has only played 11 games, he only had an average game vs. the Pats in terms of yards. Yet people act like he had his best game of the season vs. the Pats.

shmessy said:

Question: Is there ever a time to actually enjoy?

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Yes, I enjoy it now, but I don't kid myself that home field advantage is a sure fire SB or that this team is the best in the conference.

Ivan said:

I think the late yards argument can be made to argue that the patriots defense isn't as bad as the the biggest critics make it out to be but I don't see how oit makes the argument they have a good defense, which is what this part of this argument has been about. I said it is impossible to make the argument this is a good defense and to this point not one person has been able to make the argument it is. If someone makes that argument then i'll read it and respond but so far other than Pitt throwing an incoherent tantrum no-one has even tried.

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I never said the Pats had a good defense. I have always argued that if you factored in the garbage time yards and points they have allowed, they would be somewhere middle of the pack. They might still be below average, but they are closer to average than abismal.

Also, one thing I forgot to mention about Young. Eventhough they did give up a lot of yards to the Eagles when the game was still in hand, they only gave up 13 points until a garbage time TD.

SanAngeloState said:

Yes, I enjoy it now, but I don't kid myself that home field advantage is a sure fire SB or that this team is the best in the conference.

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There are no guarantees. This team is good enough to beat anyone in the conference, but you can say that about two or three other teams in the AFC side of the playoffs.

A few of things in the Pats' favor if they get homefield.

The Steelers 4-3 and Ravens are 3-4 on the road. The Steelers are 6-1 and the Ravens are 7-0 at home.

The Steelers are 1-4 vs. teams with 10 or more wins. They have lost to every 10 win team they played on the road (3 of them) and their only win is against the Pats at home.

The Jets if they get in are 2-5 vs. teams with winning record and have only won two away games this year (at Buffalo and at Washington).

Home field advantage based on the regular season is more important than you think.

SanAngeloState said:

Yes, I enjoy it now, but I don't kid myself that home field advantage is a sure fire SB or that this team is the best in the conference.

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Who said "surefire SB"??????

As Robo pointed out above, those other AFC powerhouses are clearly not the same teams on the road that they are at home. Home field is not a bad thing for the Pats to have. No one here said it is a "surefire SB".

I agree that home field isn't the end all, but let's not make up straw man arguments.

Rob0729 said:

I never said the Pats had a good defense. I have always argued that if you factored in the garbage time yards and points they have allowed, they would be somewhere middle of the pack. They might still be below average, but they are closer to average than abismal.

Also, one thing I forgot to mention about Young. Eventhough they did give up a lot of yards to the Eagles when the game was still in hand, they only gave up 13 points until a garbage time TD.

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Which means we actually agree because that's how i see it as well, the argument that you stepped into was Patfaninpitt shrieking because I said it is impossible to make the argument this is a good defense, but so far he has actually proven that point by his inability to make the argument he claims can be made.

Unlikely as it may seem I still hold out hope they can return to the 3-4 and play well enough to get them to the SB, if so they will have to play the best defensive game they have played all year to actually win it. stranger things have happened so i won't rule it out and I will go into the postseason hoping for the best and enjoying it no matter what.

I have always held the belief that Belichik runs the team for prolonged success (get to the tournament every year and you will win your share) and as such uses his money and picks carefully, however they are, at least imo, approaching the point where he needs to become more aggressive and play for the greateness for the remainder of Brady's career. I want them to spend wisely but spend alot and go after impact players and i want them to use both firsts now and treat the defense the way they treated the offense after the 2006 season, no matter what happens this season.

By spend wisely but spend alot i mean I want them to be at the top of the league for the rest of Brady's career. Make the moves now that gives brady the best supporting cast possible for the next 5 years. I can live with a short term downfall after that and would rather see them aggressive than treating it like every year is the same.

Rob0729 said:

If you are going to talk about Young's career passing to compare vs. the Pats. The Pats didn't do as bad vs. Rex Grossman as people make it out to be. He threw for 252 yards vs. the Pats, but he threw for 305 yards vs. the Giants, 291 vs. the Cards, 250 vs. Dallas the first time, 292 vs. Dallas the second time, and 314 vs. the Seahawks. Considering he has only played 11 games, he only had an average game vs. the Pats in terms of yards. Yet people act like he had his best game of the season vs. the Pats.

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I said nothing about Grossman. I thought the Pats did ok against him. He's quite capable of having a really big passing day.

Ivan said:

you say an argument can be made that this is a good defense but refuse to make it, i'm not the one who is "clueless." Unlike you i gave the reasons it isn't, you give nothing but hyperbole. Make the argument, or shut up about it, either is fine with me.

C'mon tough guy, let's see it.

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Well look at the standings

11-3.

You play to win the game.

Besides, that my point. The "reasons" you give to support your case are clueless. It's that simple.

Why not use the size of unicorn herds and Goldilocks shoe size? They are just as applicable.

Rob0729 said:

If you are going to talk about Young's career passing to compare vs. the Pats. The Pats didn't do as bad vs. Rex Grossman as people make it out to be. He threw for 252 yards vs. the Pats, but he threw for 305 yards vs. the Giants, 291 vs. the Cards, 250 vs. Dallas the first time, 292 vs. Dallas the second time, and 314 vs. the Seahawks. Considering he has only played 11 games, he only had an average game vs. the Pats in terms of yards. Yet people act like he had his best game of the season vs. the Pats.

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He did.

No Fred Davis and no Trent Williams. 19/32 2TD's 1 Int (Moss' shuffle - - not Rex' fault)

The Giants the next week lay down like dogs and he had an extra week of prep with Davis' and Williams' replacements. 15/24 185 yds 1TD 2 Int's.

patsfaninpittsburgh said:

Well look at the standings

11-3.

You play to win the game.

Besides, that my point. The "reasons" you give to support your case are clueless. It's that simple.

Why not use the size of unicorn herds and Goldilocks shoe size? They are just as applicable.

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Evidently, I'm the 2nd to last person on this website to give up the ghost on the Pats D.

I will say this at this point: The D is not as bad as the O and ST's are good - - so the Pats have a very good shot at the SB.

The Pats O and ST's are a 9.5-10. If the D can perform at a 4.5-5 level, then we could be seeing a parade in February.

this is what I think

1. New England Patriots
2. Baltimore Ravens
3. Houston Texans
4. Denver Tebows
5. Pittsburgh Steelers
6. New York Jets (sigh...)

1st round:

Jets sneak out a win vs. the Texans. Tebowmania defeats Steeler Nation after Big Ben is too hobbled to compete.

2nd round:

Patriots vs. Jets - we take care of business. Ravens vs. Tebows - Ravens lay another egg, Tebow makes another comeback.

AFC Championship: Patriots vs. Tebows!

BaltimorePatsFan said:

Chad Henne: 416 yards
Ryan Fitzpatrick: 369 yards
Jason Campbell: 344 yards
Mark Sanchez: 306 yards
Vince Young: 400 yards
Dan Orlovsky: 353 yards
Rex Grossman: "only" 252 yards but we all saw how well he played

I mean, all of these guys must be All-Pro, right?

EDIT:

Also, I think you're the guy that argued Pats D=Ravens D because the Steelers offense did similarly well in back-to-back weeks. Going by your logic, check this out:

Orlovsky vs Pats: 30/37 353 yards 2 TD 1 INT
1 week later vs Ravens: 17/37 136 yards 1 TD 1 INT

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Ahhhhhhh

Didn't like both teams win?

How do the stats compute in the first three quarters when both games were actually like.....being decided?

Also, how did that "elite" defense do against San Diego?

As I said, completely clueless.

You have zero fundamental ability to discern what matters to the outcome of a game vs what doesn't matter to the outcome of the game.

That's the poster child of clueless.

Or explain why Chad Henne, Vince Young, Dan Orlovsky, Mark Sanchez, Jason Campbell are waiting till the 4th quarter down multiple scores to start getting it done.

Are they calling for their inner Tebow?

patsfaninpittsburgh said:

Well look at the standings

11-3.

You play to win the game.

Besides, that my point. The "reasons" you give to support your case are clueless. It's that simple.

Why not use the size of unicorn herds and Goldilocks shoe size? They are just as applicable.

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The Patriots win because they are the better team not because they have the better defense, that's what final score represents, and anyone who thinks points, yards, big plays and the offensive success of bad players against is "meaningless as unicorns and goldilocks" knows nothing about defense, let alone football.

Still waiting for you to tell us how this is a good defense, something you claim is completely possible but not possible for you to do. Let us know when you can make a stab at it, so far you haven't provided anything to support your point other than namecalling.

Banjo said:

this is what I think

1. New England Patriots
2. Baltimore Ravens
3. Houston Texans
4. Denver Tebows
5. Pittsburgh Steelers
6. New York Jets (sigh...)

1st round:

Jets sneak out a win vs. the Texans. Tebowmania defeats Steeler Nation after Big Ben is too hobbled to compete.

2nd round:

Patriots vs. Jets - we take care of business. Ravens vs. Tebows - Ravens lay another egg, Tebow makes another comeback.

AFC Championship: Patriots vs. Tebows!

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Sweet Jesus let it be as it was spoken, even I would Tebow at that outcome.

shmessy said:

Evidently, I'm the 2nd to last person on this website to give up the ghost on the Pats D.

I will say this at this point: The D is not as bad as the O and ST's are good - - so the Pats have a very good shot at the SB.

The Pats O and ST's are a 9.5-10. If the D can perform at a 4.5-5 level, then we could be seeing a parade in February.

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The D is very bad in certain aspects:
- Total yds allowed: 414.4, 32nd in the NFL
- Pass yds allowed: 296.7, 32nd in the NFL
- Opp QB rating: 87.5, 24th in the NFL
- Opp completion %: 63.0, 26th in the NFL
- Yds per passing attempt allowed: 8.1, 29th in the NFL
(Lump all the passing stuff together and just say they have an awful pass defense)
- 3rd down conversions allowed: 44.5%, 29th in the NFL
- 1st downs allowed: 324, 32nd in the NFL
- defensive penalties: 104, 28th in the NFL
- Rush yds per attempt: 4.6, 26th in the NFL

The D is about average in certain aspects:
- Points allowed: 21.2, t14th in the NFL
- Rush yds allowed: 117.6, 19th in the NFL
- Pass td allowed: 21, t18th in the NFL
- Sacks: 33, 16th in the NFL
- Rush td allowed: 12, t19th in the NFL

The D is good or very good in certain aspects:
- Takeaways: 28, t1st in the AFC, t5th in the NFL
- Red Zone defense (TD %): 50.9%, 13th in the NFL

It's TOTALLY possible that the last two things - the very things NE is good at - are enough for this defense to actually play a positive role for the Pats in the postseason. They are very capable of allowing a team to march down the field on them, but they either stone them in the red zone and hold them to FG (while the Pats' offense gets TDs) or they cause a game-changing turnover.

If those things are not happening, this team will give up a lot of points.

patsfaninpittsburgh said:

Ahhhhhhh

Didn't like both teams win?

How do the stats compute in the first three quarters when both games were actually like.....being decided?

Also, how did that "elite" defense do against San Diego?

As I said, completely clueless.

You have zero fundamental ability to discern what matters to the outcome of a game vs what doesn't matter to the outcome of the game.

That's the poster child of clueless.

Or explain why Chad Henne, Vince Young, Dan Orlovsky, Mark Sanchez, Jason Campbell are waiting till the 4th quarter down multiple scores to start getting it done.

Are they calling for their inner Tebow?

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Sorry to step in here again, but I already debunked this myth when it comes to Henne and Young. Look upthread a handful of posts. They put up very big numbers when the game was far from garbage time. It's not really arguable.

shmessy said:

Evidently, I'm the 2nd to last person on this website to give up the ghost on the Pats D.

I will say this at this point: The D is not as bad as the O and ST's are good - - so the Pats have a very good shot at the SB.

The Pats O and ST's are a 9.5-10. If the D can perform at a 4.5-5 level, then we could be seeing a parade in February.

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I was at the Oakland game.

During the game, while most likely, patsfans.com was most likely in meltdown due to Jason Campbell "torching" the defense.......

The Raiders fans in my section kept loudly complaing that $*&^%@# Belichick was turning the game into a Brady vs Campbell game because McFadden wasn't a factor and that Campbell would screw up.

Imagine that, McFadden wasn't a factor and Campbell screwed it up.

That game for Oakland- highest yards and a "career day" and lowest points along with a blowout loss.

It's one thing to not be able to reconcile...it's another to not want to reconcile.....because the defense sucks.....because let's do what the Jets did the week before with an elite defense and get blown out while giving up 30+ points.

ivanvamp said:

Sorry to step in here again, but I already debunked this myth when it comes to Henne and Young. Look upthread a handful of posts. They put up very big numbers when the game was far from garbage time. It's not really arguable.

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Yeah, it was garbage time.

You may be debunking something....this site is about football.

It's a matter of mind and matter.

I don't mind because in the scheme of things, it didn't matter.

You should become an offensive corrdinator. While other guys come up with the "Run 'n Shoot", "Wildcat", " Two TE Set"........................................

You can come up with the "Let's Get Blown Out For Three Quarters so We Can Have A Career Day 4th Quarter and Lose By Marginally Less" offense.

I bet the Dolphins, Eagles, Raiders, Jets, Colts would love your services.

shmessy said:

He did.

No Fred Davis and no Trent Williams. 19/32 2TD's 1 Int (Moss' shuffle - - not Rex' fault)

The Giants the next week lay down like dogs and he had an extra week of prep with Davis' and Williams' replacements. 15/24 185 yds 1TD 2 Int's.

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Yeah, and the Pats were without Chung and Spikes. Everybody are missing people at this point of the season.