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Another thing comes into play when you have a high octane offense.

If the Patriots get a big lead in the second half and go into a "prevent" defense, it isn't going to matter whether it is 3-4, 4-3, 1-gap or 2-gap. It won't be aggressive.

rufcut said:

Another thing comes into play when you have a high octane offense.

If the Patriots get a big lead in the second half and go into a "prevent" defense, it isn't going to matter whether it is 3-4, 4-3, 1-gap or 2-gap. It won't be aggressive.

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No. When has the "prevent" defense ever actually worked? Why not still stay aggressive and get the ball back for the offense to grind out the clock? I'm done seeing 14+ point leads disappear because of the "prevent" defense. I'm sick of it.

rufcut said:

Another thing comes into play when you have a high octane offense.

If the Patriots get a big lead in the second half and go into a "prevent" defense, it isn't going to matter whether it is 3-4, 4-3, 1-gap or 2-gap. It won't be aggressive.

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All the prevent actually prevents is winning.

KontradictioN said:

All the prevent actually prevents is winning.

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I don't like it much either but it is more accurate to say that it prevents winning going away. It is frustrating as hell for a fan, but not that bad a strategy.

KontradictioN said:

All the prevent actually prevents is winning.

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Perhaps the only smart thing John Madden has ever said.

Guys,

I am freakin' stoked. Can't wait for game 1. I saved enough vaca days to take any day after a late game (lots of them) off. Also, I want the J-E-T-S so bad. I want to see douche bag stick his own foot in his mouth. Problem is he will probably get a chubby.

rufcut said:

Agreed - 2-gap vs 1 gap is a bigger change. I generally don't think of 4-3 and 2 gap going together. Am I wrong about that?

Also, is 2gap really less aggressive or does it just change who has the responsibility to get upfield in the pass rush?

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BB has always employed 2 gap in both the 34 and 43

Satchboogie3 said:

No. When has the "prevent" defense ever actually worked? Why not still stay aggressive and get the ball back for the offense to grind out the clock? I'm done seeing 14+ point leads disappear because of the "prevent" defense. I'm sick of it.

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Prevent defense works all the time. It worked in quite a few games for us last year when we built a lead and forced the other team to use too much clock to score to be able to score enough. Cincy and Pitt comes to mind.

Prevent defense isn't designed to not allow points its allowed to not allow big plays and force the team to take up so much time that they can't get enough scores. If you are up 4 scores and allow 2 long TD drives in prevent that use up all the clock, the prevent worked to perfection.

nnmnmmnn said:

Didn't we discuss this the other day? It's not the same 7 players aligned differently.

They have replaced a 300+ pound 3-4 lineman with a 260 pound DE. You have one less guy on the field whose advantage is eating space and not being easily dominated by an o lineman. You have one more guy on the field whose advantage is in getting around an o lineman rather than engaging him.

Whether you expect to see this in Sept is another issue. But right now, everything in two preseason games and public practices has been not only a change in formation, but a change in personnel on the field also.

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You really need to slow down and read posts and absorb the context of them.

rufcut said:

Agreed - 2-gap vs 1 gap is a bigger change. I generally don't think of 4-3 and 2 gap going together. Am I wrong about that?

Also, is 2gap really less aggressive or does it just change who has the responsibility to get upfield in the pass rush?

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2 gap technique requires a DL to control the los and be able to make plays on runs to either side of the player he is being blocked by.
One gap technique has the player try to get through a gap between blockers and only worry about that gap primarily.
As far as pass rushing, contrary to popular belief there really isn't much difference. I suppose the primary difference is on play action, but thats not a huge effect either.

AndyJohnson said:

Prevent defense works all the time. It worked in quite a few games for us last year when we built a lead and forced the other team to use too much clock to score to be able to score enough. Cincy and Pitt comes to mind.

Prevent defense isn't designed to not allow points its allowed to not allow big plays and force the team to take up so much time that they can't get enough scores. If you are up 4 scores and allow 2 long TD drives in prevent that use up all the clock, the prevent worked to perfection.

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4 scores is the extreme example. We saw plenty of 'prevent' in 14-21 point leads, and we also watched the defense break down enough to allow 14-21 points in as quickly as 6 minutes in some cases. Why not do the best to keep the ball in the OFFENSE hands and keep our defense off the field?

Giving the QB time will always lead to more big-plays than the occasional breakdown/beat with an aggressive play.

Satchboogie3 said:

4 scores is the extreme example. We saw plenty of 'prevent' in 14-21 point leads, and we also watched the defense break down enough to allow 14-21 points in as quickly as 6 minutes in some cases. Why not do the best to keep the ball in the OFFENSE hands and keep our defense off the field?

Giving the QB time will always lead to more big-plays than the occasional breakdown/beat with an aggressive play.

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When did it ever cost us a game?

When did we go to prevent up 14 to 21 and lose the game? I don't remember any.

The goal of prevent is to make the clock run out before they can catch you. If they come close to catching you and don't thats still success.

Totally, completely and entirely disagree that playing coverage and not letting anyone being you can come close to allowing as many big plays as a gambling defense.

You seem to have this idea that if you are aggressive your pass rushers will be good pass rushers but if you are conservative they will suck. Same guys.

And of all combinations the worst by far that can happen is to blitz and have your pass rushers fail to get to the QB. Again saying be aggressive doesnt create successful pass rushers.

Satchboogie3 said:

4 scores is the extreme example. We saw plenty of 'prevent' in 14-21 point leads, and we also watched the defense break down enough to allow 14-21 points in as quickly as 6 minutes in some cases. Why not do the best to keep the ball in the OFFENSE hands and keep our defense off the field?

Giving the QB time will always lead to more big-plays than the occasional breakdown/beat with an aggressive play.

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And by the way, all this aside, the Patriots have never been that big of a prevent defense team.

Satchboogie3 said:

4 scores is the extreme example. We saw plenty of 'prevent' in 14-21 point leads, and we also watched the defense break down enough to allow 14-21 points in as quickly as 6 minutes in some cases. Why not do the best to keep the ball in the OFFENSE hands and keep our defense off the field?

Giving the QB time will always lead to more big-plays than the occasional breakdown/beat with an aggressive play.

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I think what you're referring to there is bad defense, not the prevent defense. Not being able to get off the field is not the same thing as forcing the other team to chew up the clock.

AndyJohnson said:

You really need to slow down and read posts and absorb the context of them.

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You really need to stop downplaying the fact that they're doing something completely different this year.

Your argument over the last few weeks has morphed from "they're not playing 4-3 base" to "they're lined up in 4-3, but still playing two gap" to "they're lined up in 4-3 and playing one gap, but it's just the same 7 guys in different spots.". Still not correct.

Why are you having so much trouble coming to terms with the fact that the defense is drastically different so far this year?

nnmnmmnn said:

You really need to stop downplaying the fact that they're doing something completely different this year.

Your argument over the last few weeks has morphed from "they're not playing 4-3 base" to "they're lined up in 4-3, but still playing two gap" to "they're lined up in 4-3 and playing one gap, but it's just the same 7 guys in different spots.". Still not correct.

Why are you having so much trouble coming to terms with the fact that the defense is drastically different so far this year?

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I haven't changed anything.

1)I stated a PREDICTION. Are you telling me that I am bound to all things I predict being correct?

2) When I watched game 1 in real speed it appeared they were 2 gapping

3) When I watched it in reveiw and rewound, I saw 1 gap on the weak side and 2 gap on the strong side
What up to there do you have a problem with?

4) In this latest discussion when talking about PAST YEARS I stated that BB has used the same personell in different alignment when switching between 34 and 43
Got a problem with that?

I do, in fact, expect that the base defense will not have 2 guys that would be considered DL in our traditional 34 and 5 guys that would be considered LBs, and I have stated in detail why I feel we are seeing that now and won't in the regular season.

You appear to be very obsessed with what I post. Perhaps rather than following me around and trying to find something that you can jump into in order to imply I am being disingenuous, you could read the context, understand the circumstances of the comments and follow along a little better.

Deus Irae said:

The team was winning 18 games with a read and react defense. You're confusing the current lack of talent in the 3-4 with alleged problems of the 2 gapping 3-4. Today's game has more need for getting to the QB on passing downs, and lately Belichick had been doing a piss poor job of bringing in players who could do that out of the 3-4. The result is a bunch of 4-3 pass rushers and a change in how the team will attack the QB.

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We were winning on the strength of our offense outscoring other teams. We broke the record for most points scored in a season and our QB threw for 50 TDs. I think that was the reason why we won 18 games in 07.

And while your argument of lack of talent has some validity, I think it's more the emphasis of the 5 yard bump rule that have hampered the way Belichick's defenses used to play. Belichick's DBs used to mug other receivers. That makes a huge difference in the amount of time the QB has to throw to someone. It also makes a huge difference in how much cushion DBs can give to receivers. If you can put your hands on recievers well after 5 yards, you're going to be more aggressive.

condon84 said:

We were winning on the strength of our offense outscoring other teams. We broke the record for most points scored in a season and our QB threw for 50 TDs. I think that was the reason why we won 18 games in 07.

And while your argument of lack of talent has some validity, I think it's more the emphasis of the 5 yard bump rule that have hampered the way Belichick's defenses used to play. Belichick's DBs used to mug other receivers. That makes a huge difference in the amount of time the QB has to throw to someone. It also makes a huge difference in how much cushion DBs can give to receivers. If you can put your hands on recievers well after 5 yards, you're going to be more aggressive.

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The 5 yard bump has nothing to do with it. It would actually lend itself the the Patriots current style. You seem to be forgetting just how aggressive the Patriots used to be.

As I've posted elsewhere, there's a pretty clear correlation between the Patriots sack rating and the team's success in that same season. That includes 2007.

Donaldson may not be the best writer in the world but this recent piece regarding preseason vs. reality was simply a PERFECT synopsis

Jim Donaldson: Good start, but true measure of Patriots ability comes in January | Jim Donaldson | projo.com | The Providence Journal

PATRIOTSFANINPA said:

Donaldson may not be the best writer in the world but this recent piece regarding preseason vs. reality was simply a PERFECT synopsis

Jim Donaldson: Good start, but true measure of Patriots ability comes in January | Jim Donaldson | projo.com | The Providence Journal

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Great! Now we can expect that Downer Donaldson will go with this theme for all 32 teams up until January? Or is he allowing himself, or other teams' fans, the privilege of actually enjoying each week's successes or supporting its failures? Only 600 buckets of cold water till Superbowl Sunday!