Arrington: Should the Pats move him to Safety in 2011?

tobias funke said:

It's a good question you're asking.

I am boggled by what some people claim to know about our defensive secondary. It makes me feel like they must have access to the All-22 tape, because I never feel like I'm in a position to make a determination about anything I rarely see on television.

The only information that helps me form my decision about our defenders are the few plays I get to see them in coverage, and how the coaches regulate their playing time (which often can be a product of things we know very little about, i.e. Merriweather and meetings, etc.).

And I rarely feel like I have enough of it to make an informed statement on how good X or Y is. And I personally don't feel comfortable judging someone's entire body of work based on one or two bad plays that lead to TDs.

I also have to remind myself that the other team gets paid to play, also, and a lot of things can be related to the defensive scheme. Not every completion is automatically an incompletion or interception if our guy has a different, more popular nametag on his back.

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It helps to have a DVR where you can watch the games and players, specifically (when you can see them, of course), that you want to see. I find that I do that moreso after a thread on here about the player in question. Also, I get a lot out of watching Mike Mayock break down film on NFL Network. As well as reading the threads on here that break down the game from posters like Patspsycho and, occasionally (since he doesn't grace us with his posts too much anymore), Box.

KontradictioN said:

Personally, I think our best secondary next year would be with Bodden lining up at RCB and McCourty lining up at LCB. Meriweather and Chung could be the starting duo in the defensive backfield with Chung having the ability to come down and play the slot, if need be. I would agree with your general assessment about Meriweather though. The only thing I could say to respond to that is the fact that Chung and Meriweather compliment each other perfectly. Meriweather is better in coverage and is more of a ball hawk than Chung is while Chung stays in position more and is better in run support.

Meriweather does make some mental errors. I'll grant you that. But this defense, despite the fact that we were starting some very young and inexperienced corners this season, hasn't allowed a litany of deep plays to the opposing offense. The safety play is a big reason for that, and Meriweather has been very much a part of that.

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The defense has been very good at taking away the deep passing game and Meriweather has done his share of that. (I still wish he had a little more bulk because he was very disruptive playing more in the box Safety his sophomore season - Chung is the better tackler and headier player at this point and I would have preferred to see him playing back and being the last line of defense.) Certainly his own admission to "freelancing" at the beginning of the season when he apparently started losing some playing time put him on people's radars. Now any error in the backfield has us looking for his fingerprints.

Meriweather admits to freelancing, Sanders gets inserted last season and again this season whenever a steady hand is needed in the secondary ... you start thinking there are aspects of Safety where Meriweather is not in tune with his inner Belichick, or his outer one of that matter. With 2011 a contract season, and Meriweather reportedly not filling the leadership role we might have expected for him, it makes you go h'mmmmmm.

Box_O_Rocks said:

The defense has been very good at taking away the deep passing game and Meriweather has done his share of that. (I still wish he had a little more bulk because he was very disruptive playing more in the box Safety his sophomore season - Chung is the better tackler and headier player at this point and I would have preferred to see him playing back and being the last line of defense.) Certainly his own admission to "freelancing" at the beginning of the season when he apparently started losing some playing time put him on people's radars. Now any error in the backfield has us looking for his fingerprints.

Meriweather admits to freelancing, Sanders gets inserted last season and again this season whenever a steady hand is needed in the secondary ... you start thinking there are aspects of Safety where Meriweather is not in tune with his inner Belichick, or his outer one of that matter. With 2011 a contract season, and Meriweather reportedly not filling the leadership role we might have expected for him, it makes you go h'mmmmmm.

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Aye. But a freelancing safety wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if the team improves it's personnel in several areas and the many younger players that we have on this defense get more comfortable in their jobs. In that event, a safety that has a tendency to freelance from one time to another could actually be a good thing. Sharper freelanced quite a bit last year and it paid dividends for the Saints.

Seems to me that "deep coverage safety" is a bit of an issue for reasons other than Meriweather's "freelancing", though that's not really a plus in a BB defense, UNLESS things are pretty much settled most everywhere else, AND the group is working consistently well as a unit. And they're getting there, in fits and starts.

My biggest concern is that 2011 is Meriweather's contract year. My feeling is that his asking price for a new contract might be cost-prohibitive. IF there is a new CBA and, thus, no restrictions on trades, this off-season would be the Pats' last opportunity to move him for a pick. The idea that Bodden might be able to replace Meriweather, at least for a couple years (which might actually help Bodden extend his career a bit), and the fact that Arrington has proven he can be at least a pretty good RCB, seems to make moving Meriweather possible.

However, the Pats would still need a younger potential replacement for FS Bodden. This, then, would also mean that the Pats might need to look for a good 3rd corner. I'm pretty sure that Butler can't play RCB to save his life and I'm not convinced he'd be an even adequate temporary replacement at LCB. Wilhite might be okay at RCB, though.

Without an influx of new talent, at least for development, I'd be concerned about the depth of the above configuration going forward beyond 2011.

No, he'll get plenty of playing time at corner. We only have three corners now, for pete's sake.

No reason not to acquire a safety, we have mucho picks.

I don't see Arrington as a safety but I think Merriweather will be on the block in the off season.

If a team offers the Pats a 2nd round pick, I'd be shocked if they didn't take it.

But at the end of the day, I feel Merriweather will be traded.

KontradictioN said:

Aye. But a freelancing safety wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if the team improves it's personnel in several areas and the many younger players that we have on this defense get more comfortable in their jobs. In that event, a safety that has a tendency to freelance from one time to another could actually be a good thing. Sharper freelanced quite a bit last year and it paid dividends for the Saints.

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I've always wanted to see a BB defense with a fierce pass rush.

Imagine if they could have two bookends to compliment their ILB's.

It would 2003 all over again but more turnovers.

I've said this for years, their defense would be deadly.

So maybe Merriweather would benefit more from this.

HEY BRO! WHAT UP? said:

I've always wanted to see a BB defense with a fierce pass rush.

Imagine if they could have two bookends to compliment their ILB's.

It would 2003 all over again but more turnovers.

I've said this for years, their defense would be deadly.

So maybe Merriweather would benefit more from this.

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Lets look at history....

• The 1986 New York Giants had 59 sacks and won the SB
  
• The 1990 NYG won the SB and had only 30 sacks.
  
• The 1992 CLE Browns had the #1 scoring defense in the NFL and had 38 sacks.
  
• The 1996 NEP made it to the SB and had 33 sacks
  
• 2007 hit the high-water mark of sacks for BB's Pats and had 52 for 2nd in the NFL.

Conclusion: BB can do it with a mean pass rush, a mediocre pass rush or no pass rush.

mgteich said:

So, if we checked the defensive reps, we'd see that Meriweather has fewer reps than Page? Nonsense!

If you believe what you say, just post the number of reps by game for the safeties. Surely Meriweather is always at the bottom of the four.

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Last 2 games:

Green Bay: Chung 77, Sanders 71, Meriweather 59, Page 10. Meriweather high as Chung played a lot as Nickelback/Slot CB.

Chicago: Sanders 45, Chung 44, Page 29, Meriweather 14. A lot of Meriweather's snaps came in the 2nd half after McCourty got hurt as Chung switched to the slot as Butler and Arrington became the starting CB's

It's tough to do the 2 weeks before that as both Chung and Page were returning from injury.

Interesting idea. He's got the physicality to come up and help with run support and I think he's got enough speed to cover ground on passing plays. I don't know how he'll do diagnosing plays back there, but I don't see any limitations physically if he were to convert.

I would prefer to keep Bodden as a CB simply because he is a better cover corner than Arrington.

patriotscpfc said:

Last 2 games:

Green Bay: Chung 77, Sanders 71, Meriweather 59, Page 10. Meriweather high as Chung played a lot as Nickelback/Slot CB.

Chicago: Sanders 45, Chung 44, Page 29, Meriweather 14. A lot of Meriweather's snaps came in the 2nd half after McCourty got hurt as Chung switched to the slot as Butler and Arrington became the starting CB's

It's tough to do the 2 weeks before that as both Chung and Page were returning from injury.

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Chicago was a discipline issue, so using that game really doesn't tell us anything.

Deus Irae said:

Chicago was a discipline issue, so using that game really doesn't tell us anything.

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I thought it was at least partly a tactical choice - high winds, fewer deep throws, less need for deep coverage, more need for good tacklers to prevent YAC.

yopats said:

His size and the style of his play is compatible with Ed Reed..not saying he has the skill set but the idea of him Chung patrolling the secondary is quite appealing Plus cb is deep in this draft..think jenkins or harris ..I like Bodden coming back but I want that postion to be stocked and having butler as the slot cb might be the best fit

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Ed Reed = 5'11 and 201 lbs
Arrington = 5'9 4/8 and 192 lbs.

Not sure I'd say they were comparable..

Also, I would have to say that Ed Reed's play-making abilities far surpass those of Arrington'

Off The Grid said:

I'm still not convinced that Stomper can't be redeemed, that Picture Perfect Pick on Sunday Night not withstanding...In fact, I think he's gone a long way towards justifying my earlier advocacy of him, as Brother Contra so aptly describes it. Even so, just for the sake of discussion...

I wonder what we could get for'm??

Tebucky Jones got us the equivalent of a 3rd, a 5th, and a 7th from the Saints in 2003: a 3rd and a 7th plus a 2004 4th...And he didn't make any Pro Bowls, that I recall.

I love Arrington, but I don't see him as a starting Safety.

I am vehemently against going Secondary in the 1st Round of next year's Draft, considering the Weaponry likely to be available for the Front 7, who I believe offer substantially greater potential Impact...so I'm not a fan of drafting Amukamara...But there are some intriguing possibilities, just the same, particularly among the Junior Class.

Tyler Sash, should he declare, would be a flat out DREAM.

Wouldn't it be something if we could trade Stomper for a 2nd Rounder and change?? And then draft a replacement for him with that very pick: One who VASTLY outperforms him and teams up with Pat Chung to forge an EPIC Safety tandem for the balance of a long, glorious decade.

THAT...to quote Brother ButtHead, Patron Saint of Things That Don't Suck...would be cool. :rocker:

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If Tyler Sash were to declare, the Pats would probably have to use Oakland's pick to draft him because this year's draft is so thin on talent at safety. And, being that BB has a really good in at Iowa (Kirk Ferentz) he'll know better than many the quirks that Sash has and whether or not he (BB) could work with him.

Triumph said:

The Pats need to draft another CB or two. You can never have enough CBs in this defense. Beyond Bodden, McDroy and Arrington, the cupboards are bare.

Hope is not a plan and Wilhite and Butler both suck. Both have dropped to the bottom of the depth chart. Weve seen what the NE pass D looks like with Jonathan Wilhite manning one CB position.

Furthermore, Bodden will be 30 next season returning from injury and there is no gaurantee that he will will return to 2009 form, new 5 year contract or not. Also, theres no better time to draft and groom Boddens replacement.

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What do you mean the cupboards are bare? The Pats have Butler and Wilhite who have both improved significantly and are more than capable at covering the slot receiver or even being spot starters. Not to mention that they are still very young.

The Pats ALSO have Thad Turner on the practice squad and the recently added Tony Carter.

Sorry, but it is foolishness to write off Butler and Wilhite at this stage. Especially after the improvements they showed this year.

KontradictioN said:

Aye. But a freelancing safety wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if the team improves it's personnel in several areas and the many younger players that we have on this defense get more comfortable in their jobs. In that event, a safety that has a tendency to freelance from one time to another could actually be a good thing. Sharper freelanced quite a bit last year and it paid dividends for the Saints.

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Comparing the Saints Defense to the Pats defense is your first mistake.

When a player "freelances" in the Pats defense, bad things happen. One of the core tenants of the BB defense is that you do your job. If you are freelancing, then you aren't doing your job. You will be out of position. And, if you're out of position, then you are creating a hole that can be exploited by the offense.

Rodney Harrison used to freelance all the time in San Diego. He changed his whole style of play when he came to the Pats and he was better off for it.

What is clear to me is that Meriweather doesn't have the recognition of opposing offenses to be adept at freelancing. Not the way that Darren Sharper does. In fact, I'd say his play recognition is about the same as it was when he was a rookie.

DaBruinz said:

Comparing the Saints Defense to the Pats defense is your first mistake.

When a player "freelances" in the Pats defense, bad things happen. One of the core tenants of the BB defense is that you do your job. If you are freelancing, then you aren't doing your job. You will be out of position. And, if you're out of position, then you are creating a hole that can be exploited by the offense.

Rodney Harrison used to freelance all the time in San Diego. He changed his whole style of play when he came to the Pats and he was better off for it.

What is clear to me is that Meriweather doesn't have the recognition of opposing offenses to be adept at freelancing. Not the way that Darren Sharper does. In fact, I'd say his play recognition is about the same as it was when he was a rookie.

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Agree with all of this.

DaBruinz said:

Ed Reed = 5'11 and 201 lbs
Arrington = 5'9 4/8 and 192 lbs.

Not sure I'd say they were comparable..

Also, I would have to say that Ed Reed's play-making abilities far surpass those of Arrington'

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Nfl.com lists Kyle at 5 "10 196 / Ed at 5"11 200..... play making would fall under my skill comment...

fair catch fryar said:

Simple knee-jerk reactions on an otherwise promising future for the youngest "D" in the NFL. Meriweather is definitely not the brightest bulb on the X-mas tree, but he has been good at times and decent most of the times when playing. He has not been a malcontent yet and if anything needs a few more years to mature. Also, I still feel like the Pats need to use one of their top 6 picks on a safety. They get banged up so much, you can almost always count on someone going down. I love the way Chung plays, which only makes me that much more worried about it. (i.e. Bob Sanders)

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Greedy!! I LIKE it!! :rocker:

Bob Sanders is perhaps my favorite Non Pat in the league...But the effect of his absence on the Colts is ENORMOUS.

Ditto, Troy Polamalu and the Steelers.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind keeping Brandon Meriweather AND racking up a couple of juicy late Round prospects, like Brian Lainhart and Mark LeGree.

And Eric Hagg intrigues as a late Round Free Safety ~ Strong Safety Hybrid.

I like Stomper, and I want to see him succeed...But it might very well be smarter to draft Tyler Sash ~ who I like about 1000 times better for the gig ~ and trade him, now: He's had 4 years, and that's plenty of time for the light bulb to go on.

If we can trade him, pick up a guy who might be a vast improvement ~ Sash ~ with one of the picks, rack up a few extra, and defer the Salary Cap hit of resigning him in a year or so...That sounds like Win Win WIN to me: I say we do it, and don't look back. Let Sash train behind Sanders for a year, if needs be.

Pat Chung and Tyler Sash for the next 8 or 9 years could be AMAZING.

mgteich said:

Apparently, for many there is a critical need for an upgrade our #4 and #5 corners. Folks seem fine with McCourty, Bodden and Apprington, although some want to make Arrington a safety.

For me, we are all set with Bodden, McCourty and Arrington. Butler and Wilhite are probably as good as most #4 and #5 corners. Folks consider tham failures because thaey are not shut down, all-pro starters. WE DON'T NEED THEM TO BE STARTERS! We have two starters and a backup for 2011. We need Butler and Wilhite to be competitive nickel and dime backs. Even there, our safeties (and perhaps Arrington) can take on the nickel and or dime roles.

BOTTOM LINE

I don't see the critical need to upgrade our #4 corner posiition. We have Butler and Wilhite to compete for that roster spot and role. The loser of this camp competition can compete with the speical teamers for the #9 and/or #10 db roster spot. Sergio Brown is our #9 defensive back at the moment. Carter is our #10.

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Nicely put. The fervor to hit Corner hard in the Draft does seem overly wrought, to me.

I would love to selectively pick up a couple of Corners, Day 3 and beyond...

But considering what we already have in place, and considering the relative Impact of Grizzlies and Flankers, versus the Secondary...

Well, it is called the "Secondary", after all.