Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

very cool. thanks Blue Collar

3 to be 4 said:

as far as that awesome question, my first impulsive reply is to say, i doubt very much Osama Bin Laden has the spirit of God working in him. Maybe A God, but not the one I follow. Now, i would hardly put the other 2 in OBL's category, but for sure I think Fred is what the Bible refers to as a "false prophet". And Jerry's form of "Religion" isnt my cup of tea either. I cant say what is truly in another persons heart. They may claim to know Jesus.
But only the Lord and that person knows for sure.

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So many gods...so little time...

wistahpatsfan said:

So many gods...so little time...

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you couldnt be more correct, my friend. Thats why its important to choose wisely.


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

PatsFanInVa said:

My cat loves me, 3 to B. I do not, however, think my cat is the messiah.

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I think mine is

Nikki said:

I think mine is

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Is it ok for me to pet your kitty?

Just funning with ya...Manana lets finish the N.O. DEBATE, COOL? I WILL BE CIVIL, I'm under the weather with the flu,honest,take care peace, and let me know about your kitty

another excellent video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jnii5lm604&mode=related&search=

Nikki said:

I think mine is

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Okay, now that was legitimately funny.

the rest of this message was going to be another trouncing of 3toB, a Christian now bent on telling Jews the exact kind of Judaism he thinks they should follow, until, of course, they also abandon the faith of their fathers. Missed the last one -- this is what happens when you skip a page, isn't it?

Tell ya what, 3. Why don't you drop by the local orthodox shul, and ask them what they think of you using an orthodox tract to disparage reform, for the benefit of Christian prosyletizing.

Thanks for the theology lesson, 3, but again, you have no standing. And yes, you are achieving your unstated goal, becoming more offensive by the post.

PFnV

PatsFanInVa said:

...Thanks for the theology lesson, 3, but again, you have no standing. And yes, you are achieving your unstated goal, becoming more offensive by the post.

PFnV

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Yeah, really 32B4...STFU already! Religion is wierd enough to start with - no need to make it wierder, fakrissakes.

good morning guys. Try not focusing to much attention on me. Or better still, try not taking everything i post as a personal attack on you.

Its not about US. there have been 900 or so views to this post, and i havent forced anyone to keep it going. a few of you have chosen to be offended by it. But who has any idea how many have had a cause to consider their relationship with God, instead of focusing their entire day on worldly concerns?

and yes, i have presented my beliefs to orthodox Jews. They have hardly gotten ticked off and offended, at least to my face, They have appreciated the discussion and we have learned from each other.

I hope everyone has a blessed day and a safe weekend. Jesus loves you.

Boy you must be a lot of fun at parties with Jesus this and Jesus that.


Jesus H.

Turd Furguson said:

Boy you must be a lot of fun at parties with Jesus this and Jesus that.


Jesus H.

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hmmmmm. being fun at parties........abiding in the word of God......being fun at parties......abiding in the word of God........

Im going to have to go with God, my friend.

3 to be 4 said:

hmmmmm. being fun at parties........abiding in the word of God......being fun at parties......abiding in the word of God........

Im going to have to go with God, my friend.

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Get over yourself. Your doody stinks to high heaven as much as anyone elses.

Turd Furguson said:

Get over yourself. Your doody stinks to high heaven as much as anyone elses.

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Who said it didnt? You are darn right. We are all sinners. Every one of us.

But if I had to choice to go back to my old ways, without God, but the "life of the party"

or, a little less entertaining, but with Gods forgiveness of my sins.

I choose the second option.

I'm pretty over my wackier days as well. But for you younguns, remember the prayer of St. Augustine:

"Dear God, make me good, but not yet."

:rocker:

Rock on, Oggie!

PFnV

one of the most heartening things I see at my church are the numbers of young people so enthusiastic for the Lord. And its not just kids going because their parents are dragging them. In some cases, its the kids bringing in the parents. Ive seen it. Ive talked with them. Its real, and it blows me away.
Where I go, its very non traditional. Its all Bible based, but the trappings of "religion" arent there. people come as they are, no fancy clothes. We have a Christian Rock band for our worship team. The kids are allowed to be kids, they are not screamed at. Our Pastor is 37, a former youth leader, raised by a single mom. So there is a great passion for youth and to be there for young families.
And we do have quite a bit of fun.
the point is, these kids have got something i never thought possible for young people to have. its certainly nothing I had growing up. And thats knowing there are better options for them. With all the pressures kids have today and with all the awful things their peers are into now, far worse than in my day, they dont have to wait until they are 35 or 45 to stop ruining themselves. They can live in peace today. Children are very open to God because they havent been so jaded and worned down by cynicism. And its never too early to stop the self-destructive behaviors so many young people
kill themselves with in the name of fun.

The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary, Sunday, 12/18/05.

Herewith at this happy time of year, a few confessions from my beating heart: I have no freaking clue who Nick and Jessica are. I see them on the cover of People and Us constantly when I am buying my dog biscuits and kitty litter. I often ask the checkers at the grocery stores. They never know who Nick and Jessica are either. Who are they? Will it change my life if I know who they are and why they have broken up? Why are they so important?

I don't know who Lindsay Lohan is either, and I do not care at all about Tom Cruise's wife.

Am I going to be called before a Senate committee and asked if I am a subversive? Maybe, but I just have no clue who Nick and Jessica are.

If this is what it means to be no longer young, it's not so bad.

Next confession:
I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are: Christmas trees.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, "Merry Christmas" to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution, and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship Nick and Jessica and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him?

I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too.

But there are a lot of us who are wondering where Nick and Jessica came from and where the America we knew went to.

In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this Happen?" (regarding Katrina)

Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.

And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"

In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.

Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school . The Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell.

Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.

Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.

Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing?

Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it.

Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.

"You did NOT write a thread that was the equivalent of "Reasons to be Jewish" or "Reasons in the Qu'ran to believe in Allah". If so, your purported thread would have been "Reasons to be Christian" or "Reasons in the New Testament to believe in Jesus".

But that wasn't quite the title and gist of your thread was it? No, it was "OLD TESTAMENT Reasons For JEWS to Believe in Jesus". It wasn't merely a positive statement about Christianity and Jesus. It was all about others (many here who responded that they are quite happy, thank you very much, with their own faith) DROPPING and ABANDONING their own beliefs and adopting Christianity - - - via NOT a personal epiphany, but by your debating tactics.

As I wrote above, if you can't see the difference and you write that there is no difference, you are either blind or slimy. Take your pick."

Schmessy, I want to answer this in the proper thread. You are playing debating semantics. Fine. ok.
let me be clear. Had someone written a thread saying "Reasons for Christians to believe that Jesus isnt the Messiah" or "Qu'ran reasons why Christians should believe in Allah" I would NOT have found it offensive. I would disagree, but I would find the dialogue stimulating. Im not afraid of any such discussion. Ok??

3 to be 4 said:

Schmessy, I want to answer this in the proper thread. You are playing debating semantics. Fine. ok.
let me be clear. Had someone written a thread saying "Reasons for Christians to believe that Jesus isnt the Messiah" or "Qu'ran reasons why Christians should believe in Allah" I would NOT have found it offensive. I would disagree, but I would find the dialogue stimulating. Im not afraid of any such discussion. Ok??

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Nobody is afraid of you, 3. We are disgusted with you.

Let us say there is something in the world which you found offensive. For the sake of argument, let's say that it would be the anatomically detailed accounts of sex with farm animals.

Let us say I insisted you give me 10 good reasons for not having sex with farm animals. Let's say I insist you discuss sex with farm animals in vivid detail, using biblical examples to bolster your opinions. But let us further stipulate that your descriptions of sex with farm animals must be pornographically vivid, in juxtaposition with your quotation from scripture.

Let us say I issue this challenge to Christians only, because they are most in need of having sex with farm animals, and because "my religion" requires me to specifically seek out Christians and discuss sex with farm animals with them.

Would you "find the dialog stimulating?" Again, you may lie and say yes, and that would be a fine, disengenuous, and intellectually bankrupt response. Or you may say no, which would probably be more honest.

I find proselytizing grotesque. I find the perception that Jews, specifically, "need" your proselytizing grotesque. I find it an utterly irrelevant response, that your religion "requires" you to discuss my putative conversion with you, based on the assumption that I am incapable of examining sources on my own. I find this insulting given my background in the very sources you have mentioned, and infinitely more insulting that you issue your plea to the poor, misguided Jews of the world specifically.

That you "would not find it insulting" if I wanted to discuss reasons Christians need Allah, may or may not be true. However, assuming you would really "find the dialog stimulating," it simply amounts to a bad example.

Your proselytizing is patently offensive to those not of your creed. If indeed "Reasons for Christians to believe the Qur'an" is not insulting to you, then it is a bad example. The sex-with-farm-animals debate -- in which I frame the terms of debate, you begin on the defensive, and for which I target you based on your own religion -- is a far better one.

Is this something you would have me do unto you, to use Hillel's phrase (after all, it's been used before, albeit without attribution)?

Try to follow the thread here, 3. You do something to other people that is offensive and grotesque to them. They tell you to stop. You complain they keep reading your posts --- which, after all, are directed to them by their religion. You then go on to explain to Jewish people how best to be Jewish, despite the fact that you have proven yourself to be incapable of adhering to Judaism of any branch, since you are a Christian convert. This is ugly, ugly stuff. This is why nobody likes it, except your fellow Christian evangelists.

I don't think having the mods shut you down is the answer, because, as I've stated before, I prefer freedom of ideas and speech, even for the American Nazis. I do not, however, think the Nazis -- or you -- should have your speech go unchallenged.

In both cases, the speech in question is patently offensive. That does not make it illegal, and it does not give the mods any real responsibility to silence you. But it does give me the responsibility of explaining your ugly actions to you, although I doubt they will pierce your shell of religious fanatacism.

PFnV

PatsFanInVa said:

Nobody is afraid of you, 3. We are disgusted with you.

Let us say there is something in the world which you found offensive. For the sake of argument, let's say that it would be the anatomically detailed accounts of sex with farm animals.

Let us say I insisted you give me 10 good reasons for not having sex with farm animals. Let's say I insist you discuss sex with farm animals in vivid detail, using biblical examples to bolster your opinions. But let us further stipulate that your descriptions of sex with farm animals must be pornographically vivid, in juxtaposition with your quotation from scripture.

Let us say I issue this challenge to Christians only, because they are most in need of having sex with farm animals, and because "my religion" requires me to specifically seek out Christians and discuss sex with farm animals with them.

Would you "find the dialog stimulating?" Again, you may lie and say yes, and that would be a fine, disengenuous, and intellectually bankrupt response. Or you may say no, which would probably be more honest.

I find proselytizing grotesque. I find the perception that Jews, specifically, "need" your proselytizing grotesque. I find it an utterly irrelevant response, that your religion "requires" you to discuss my putative conversion with you, based on the assumption that I am incapable of examining sources on my own. I find this insulting given my background in the very sources you have mentioned, and infinitely more insulting that you issue your plea to the poor, misguided Jews of the world specifically.

That you "would not find it insulting" if I wanted to discuss reasons Christians need Allah, may or may not be true. However, assuming you would really "find the dialog stimulating," it simply amounts to a bad example.

Your proselytizing is patently offensive to those not of your creed. If indeed "Reasons for Christians to believe the Qur'an" is not insulting to you, then it is a bad example. The sex-with-farm-animals debate -- in which I frame the terms of debate, you begin on the defensive, and for which I target you based on your own religion -- is a far better one.

Is this something you would have me do unto you, to use Hillel's phrase (after all, it's been used before, albeit without attribution)?

Try to follow the thread here, 3. You do something to other people that is offensive and grotesque to them. They tell you to stop. You complain they keep reading your posts --- which, after all, are directed to them by their religion. You then go on to explain to Jewish people how best to be Jewish, despite the fact that you have proven yourself to be incapable of adhering to Judaism of any branch, since you are a Christian convert. This is ugly, ugly stuff. This is why nobody likes it, except your fellow Christian evangelists.

I don't think having the mods shut you down is the answer, because, as I've stated before, I prefer freedom of ideas and speech, even for the American Nazis. I do not, however, think the Nazis -- or you -- should have your speech go unchallenged.

In both cases, the speech in question is patently offensive. That does not make it illegal, and it does not give the mods any real responsibility to silence you. But it does give me the responsibility of explaining your ugly actions to you, although I doubt they will pierce your shell of religious fanatacism.

PFnV

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I dont "insist" you discuss anything, PFIV, so your analogy is ridiculous.

the "story" you describe, is not in the scripture, so its irrelevant. If it was in Hebrew Scripture then we could have a fruitful discussion.

that you compare me with a Nazi is ridiculous. "ugly" "fanatic" very nice. very nice.

And I have given my reasons why, based on the old Testament, I believe I AM practicing Judaism. Now, 99% of Jews may disagree, and that is their right. And that is your right.

And your opening sentence is quite puzzling to me. Who said anyone is or should be afraid of me?? I said that I wasnt afraid to discuss any religious topic. How do you get that from that?

Frankly, im a little surprised that some of you are all so rattled by a guy posting some challenges to conventional wisdom, with scripture behind it no less. So rattled that your venom just oozes out toward me personally.

So much for intellectual freedom. And like in politics, when you dont have an answer, destroy.

Im not getting down into that. I appreciate your challenges. I appreciate all the responses Ive gotten because they have all made me think and grow.

I can take the name calling, if you feel you must do that. Jesus took on much worse. And he told his followers that if they were to follow him, they would be hated too.

Just know that even now, ************ Loves You, He wants the best for you, and He forgives us for everything you or I will have ever done. God is so loving that despite all the ways we failed Him and turned our backs on Him and knowingly sinned against Him, He offers us eternal joy and peace with Him. And this gift of Gods washing away our sin is free, all we have to do is accept it.

My motives are much like someone who sees a burning building. There are people inside. And ive seen a way they can get out. You may be in that building yelling at me that im nuts, but im not withholding the info. Now thats my motive. Its out of Love, my friends, and im not about to either
A) stop
B) get into personal accusation

3 to be 4 said:

My motives are much like someone who sees a burning building. There are people inside. And ive seen a way they can get out. You may be in that building yelling at me that im nuts, but im not withholding the info. Now thats my motive. Its out of Love, my friends, and im not about to either
A) stop
B) get into personal accusation

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Have you ever stopped to quietly contemplate that perhaps, just perhaps, it is the other way around? That it is YOU who is inside the burning building?

Earlier you detailed what a horrific family upbringing you had. For myself, I have been blessed with a wonderful, nurturing, loving family who always encouraged me to expand my horizons and feed my curiousity.

I am supremely happy, satisfied and content, fully knowing that I am an unfinished and imperfect product, but happy knowing that I am trying my best every day.

It is you who escaped a horrible situation to cling onto some form of escape. I can't blame you for doing so and honestly hope it works out for you over the long-run. But before you talk about saving other people from burning buildings, perhaps you should respect when others say "no thank you" to your sales pitch.

You are much like the salesman who attempts to "overcome objections" by talking over the "prospect" without actually LISTENING. Twenty one years ago, during a college summer, I trained at a "fine" pots and pans sales position that taught me the very same techniques you use here. It's uncanny how you are following a similar script that I was forced to debase myself with Eastern Massachusetts housewives over the phone in 1985. When a housewife would say that she didn't need the product and was perfectly happy with what she had, we were taught to never give up until we had made at least five separate attempts to overcome objections. We were taught that there never was a valid objection - - even if the woman said she couldn't use pots and pans because she was a quadraplegic. The manager used to say his best producers were always the "most desperate". At first, I thought he was joking - - then after awhile I learned he wasn't.

In one respect, you are a stronger man than I am. I couldn't stomach doing that for more than a few days. You, on the other hand, have been able to turn off your ears and disrespect others while closing your eyes and plowing ahead with your script.

I hope only for the best outcome for you. It must have been a truly horrible early life for you to have to resort to closing your eyes and ears and just reciting your script.

Consider me the "prospect" to whom you won't be making a "sale". I am perfectly happy and content with my lot in life, my God and my religion. I am now hanging up the phone gently and metaphorically placing myself on your "DNC" list.

And yes, I do hope for the best for you. Hang in there and keep searching, you'll find it someday.

Peace.