Looking back at the infamous 4th down and 2 call...

ausbacker said:

The offense contributed to that loss by not converting the forth down you are correct, however the defense could have stopped Peyton Manning.. several times.
Had the offense converted the fourth, then you can claim they won the game on that play, but they didn't. At that point, the Patriots were up 34-28. Therefore, it was a team loss.

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If the offense converted I think you would have said they won the game.

maverick4 said:

Thank you for admitting you are so biased you will NEVER admit that the offense lost any game, yet you'll say a defense lost other games. Not that it matters since you're sure to contradict yourself, but I doubt you'll be able to stay away from giving credit to a player or unit for any games moving forward. And it's a lie that you wouldn't have given credit to Brady and the offense if they had made that conversion.

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Pretty sure I've stuck to my original point of view that the offense, the defense and the special teams lost the game, but you're free to perpetuate whatever lies you like to justify reasonings in your head.

Here's a very simple concept for you maverick. If the offense is driving, either tied or equal in score and puts up a game winning score, that constitutes a win by the offense. If the team is in front, with the opposing offense driving needing a score to win and the defense stops them, that's a win by the defense.

Now couple that working theory when you are up by 20 points, with 5 minutes to play and you sit there with a straight face and tell me that loss wasn't on the Patriots team as a whole. The offense failed to execute and the defense failed to execute. That's a TOTAL team loss.

I don't know if I can simplify that any further.

And for the record, I'm more a fan of defense more than offense.

ausbacker said:

If the offense is driving, either tied or equal in score and puts up a game winning score, that constitutes a win by the offense. If the team is in front, with the opposing offense driving needing a score to win and the defense stops them, that's a win by the defense..

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I thought you just previously argued that all wins and losses are team wins or losses, now you're acknowledging that offenses or defenses can win or lose a game?

Good.

The only problem with what you just wrote, is that under what you described, an offense can NEVER be blamed for a loss since the defense gave up the last meaningful points to the opponent in any loss.

This may be why you can't seem to find any examples, ever, when an offense lost a game. It's a clever argument trick.

maverick4 said:

I thought you just previously argued that all wins and losses are team wins or losses, now you're acknowledging that offenses or defenses can win or lose a game?

Good.

The only problem with what you just wrote, is that under what you described, an offense can NEVER be blamed for a loss since the defense gave up the last meaningful points to the opponent in any loss.

This may be why you can't seem to find any examples, ever, when an offense lost a game. It's a clever argument trick.

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You're beyond reasoning with.

ausbacker said:

You're beyond reasoning with.

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I am using your own reasoning.

You outlined how an offense can win a game, how a defense can win a game, and obviously a defense can lose a game too.

There is no scenario under your reasoning, where an offense can lose a game. It's basically an argument trick so that anytime an offense loses you call it a "team loss", since any loss involves the defense giving up the last meaningful points.

maverick4 said:

I am using your own reasoning.

You outlined how an offense can win a game, how a defense can win a game, and obviously a defense can lose a game too.

There is no scenario under your reasoning, where an offense can lose a game. It's basically an argument trick so that anytime an offense loses you call it a "team loss", since any loss involves the defense giving up the last meaningful points.

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They are all team losses and team wins. That's the fashion in which the special teams, the defenses and the offenses can contribute to that win or loss.

Now you're going back to saying it's always a team win or loss?

ausbacker said:

They are all team losses and team wins. That's the fashion in which the special teams, the defenses and the offenses can contribute to that win or loss.

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And yet you just said this earlier:

ausbacker said:

Here's a very simple concept for you maverick. If the offense is driving, either tied or equal in score and puts up a game winning score, that constitutes a win by the offense. If the team is in front, with the opposing offense driving needing a score to win and the defense stops them, that's a win by the defense.

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Astounding logic, bravo. Since it was found that there is no scenario under your reasoning to ever blame the offense for a loss, you are now going back to claiming it's all team wins or losses????

Belichick put the fate of the Colts game in the hands of his offense. If the offense converted everyone would have said they won that game. Conversely, they didn't convert, and the offense lost the game.

maverick4 said:

Now you're going back to saying it's always a team win or loss?

And yet you just said this earlier:

Since you were caught that there is no scenario under your reasoning to ever blame the offense for a loss, you are now going back to claiming it's all team wins or losses????

Belichick put the fate of the Colts game in the hands of his offense. If the offense converted everyone would have said they won that game. Conversely, they didn't convert, and they lost the game.

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You've no foot to stand on. I'm perfectly happy with my reasoning in which a success or a failure in execution by either the defense or the offense during a drive contributes to a win or loss by the team on the whole at the end of the game.

ausbacker said:

You've no foot to stand on. I'm perfectly happy with my reasoning in which a success or a failure in execution by either the defense or the offense during a drive contributes to a win or loss by the team on the whole at the end of the game.

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I've already quoted everything you wrote above, I hope someone else can figure it out...

maverick4 said:

I've already quoted everything you wrote above, I hope someone else can figure it out...

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It's not my fault that you can't comprehend that on any single drive, but in particular at the end of the game, where a score is needed by either the Patriots or their opponent, a "win" on that drive by the offense or the defense is a contributing factor to a win or a loss by the team as a whole.

I'm pretty sure when they hand out championship rings offensive, defensive and special teams players get one each.