NFLN replay: Pats vs. NO constructive analysis

maverick4 said:

It's like when Belichick figured out the 01 Rams went through Faulk. Once the Saints took Welker out of the game, we couldn't manufacture a win.

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They shut down both Welker and Moss.

Our significant gains came on outs.

Rob0729 said:

It isn't the shotgun. It was abandoning the run that was the problem. The Pats have been primarily in the shotgun before and not have this problem. The fact of the matter is the Saints didn't care about the Pats running the ball and just played pass for most of the game after the first quarter.

Of course the defensive woes also played into it. The Pats were grinding it down the field initially, but the Saints didn't need more than a minute or two to respond with a TD meaning the Pats couldn't even afford to grind out the ball anymore. Brees was throwing a TD pass about every four to five pass attempt.

Personally, I think this was an entire team failure. You are focusing too much in on the offense when the defense wasn't even a speed bump on the defense scoring. I think on both sides of the ball the players didn't execute and the coordinators failed to adjust.

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Absolutely, it was a total team failure. I was focusing on an analysis of the offense. But I haven't absolved the defense by any means.

We did a much better job of incorporating the run into the shotgun in the Dallas game than we did in the NO game. Most of the time I didn't see a back line up at all.

Patspsycho said:

This confirms my initial assessment that the NO D had a new type of coverage to contain Welker/Moss:

Welker: Saints gave a new twist - Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

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It's really not a new twist, just the most successful execution of a twist as Welker stated. The Giants did this to some extent. AllWorldTE posted a breakdown over on the Planet that I reposted here that details it. The linebackers were positioned to cover the run and underneath stuff quickly and prevent YAC. While some screens and rubs might have helped mitigate that Brady wasn't getting time, which it takes, for those to develop. He also noted that while they may have abandoned the run a tad early it was really the quick strike success by NO that dictated that and their LB actually appeared to be playing even faster against the run as the game wore on.

MoLewisrocks said:

It's really not a new twist, just the most successful execution of a twist as Welker stated. The Giants did this to some extent. AllWorldTE posted a breakdown over on the Planet that I reposted here that details it. The linebackers were positioned to cover the run and underneath stuff quickly and prevent YAC. While some screens and rubs might have helped mitigate that Brady wasn't getting time, which it takes, for those to develop. He also noted that while they may have abandoned the run a tad early it was really the quick strike success by NO that dictated that and their LB actually appeared to be playing even faster against the run as the game wore on.

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Are you allowed to paste a link to that source? I would be interested in reading it.

Rob0729 said:

It isn't the shotgun. The Pats have been primarily in the shotgun before and not have this problem. The fact of the matter is the Saints didn't care about the Pats running the ball and just played pass for most of the game after the first quarter.

Personally, I think this was an entire team failure. You are focusing too much in on the offense

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It clearly was the reversion to almost 100% shotgun plays which largely cost us at least two games.

According to Rob0709's views, the Pats offense can never lose a game because in any loss, the last meaningful points were given up by the Patriots defense to the opposing team.

It's a neat little trick to never lay blame on the offense. Ever.




Mayoclinic did a phenomenal job, twice here on this link, showing how the offense largely caused losses:
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...y-pats-vs-no-constructive-analysis-page3.html

.

Patspsycho said:

Are you allowed to paste a link to that source? I would be interested in reading it.

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Dean Pees must go - Page 2 - Patriots Planet - New England Patriots Forums and Message Boards

I have all the respect for AllWorldTE, but to conclude that it was simply a bad match-up for the Pats offense, is off the mark.

MoLewisrocks said:

Dean Pees must go - Page 2 - Patriots Planet - New England Patriots Forums and Message Boards

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He said the same thing I did, re: drop 8, play screen, bracket Welker. Also sitting low on the cross to kill YAC.

Patspsycho said:

He said the same thing I did, re: drop 8, play screen, bracket Welker. Also sitting low on the cross to kill YAC.

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That is the correct way to defeat the Patriots if we do the same thing all day, which we did except for the 1st quarter.

Patspsycho said:

They shut down both Welker and Moss.

Our significant gains came on outs.

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The old teams used to suffer devastating injuries all the time and have resilience.

The new team can't win a game if Welker has a bad game.

BB sticks to his plan. If it works, it's great. If it doesn't, he still uses it. It's the reason his half time adjustment sucks.

NEPatriot said:

BB sticks to his plan. If it works, it's great. If it doesn't, he still uses it. It's the reason his half time adjustment sucks.

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Actually the 2nd halves this season have been poor, and the team has deviated from game plans as early as the 1st quarter. I think you would be surprised if you looked at the 2nd half performances this year.

They stopped using Maroney in the Saints game as early as the first few drives even though he was rolling.

I agree that the offense has become too predicable: we have the shotgun + Moss + Welker or nothing. I also believe that the offense is hanging the defense out to dry. The pass rush is too weak so this current defense is not capable of dominating. The offense should be the stronger half of the team since the defense is built to contain an opponent. Consider for example the balanced opening drive that lead to a touch down. That type of drive helps the defense so that is what we need.

Looking back at Patpsycho's original post, can we cross our fingers and hope that Mr. Wilhite & friends are gaining valuable experience and this team will make a decent play off appearance or two or more???

maverick4 said:

That is the correct way to defeat the Patriots if we do the same thing all day, which we did except for the 1st quarter.

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The only way they were able to do that was because they had the ability and talent to rush 3, drop 8 and still pressure the pocket. No other team has this ability except maybe Colts.

You will maybe see this concept imitated but not copied with the same amount of success.

I actually think this defense is capable of a ferocious pass rush.

I suspect Mayo, Guyton, Thomas, Meriweather, and Chung can be forces if we change the defensive scheme.

When is the last time you remember the names above ever lined up at the line of scrimmage?

Simply putting more guys at scrimmage, even to fake blitz, will occasionally mess up the O-line and QB reads.

maverick4 said:

I actually think this defense is capable of a ferocious pass rush.

I suspect Mayo, Guyton, Thomas, Meriweather, and Chung can be forces if we change the defensive scheme.

When is the last time you remember the names above ever lined up at the line of scrimmage?

Simply putting more guys at scrimmage, even to fake blitz, will occasionally mess up the O-line and QB reads.

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Ferocious may be overstating it. We just need a better blitz scheme. The scheme that the Steelers and Jets use always seem to work more often than not. They shoot two players through one gap and is pretty effective especially against teams that are not max-protecting.

Patspsycho said:

The only way they were able to do that was because they had the ability and talent to rush 3, drop 8 and still pressure the pocket. No other team has this ability except maybe Colts.

You will maybe see this concept imitated but not copied with the same amount of success.

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I can somewhat agree with this but don't think it's the main problem.

It's like saying, the 01 Rams can be stopped if you have linebackers who can chip Faulk, and a secondary who can hit receivers hard after their predictable slants and in-cuts.

I would say it's a stubborn scheme issue if the Rams are beaten and blame Martz. I suppose others would praise the winning team and say the losing team had nothing different they could do to win.

maverick4 said:

I can somewhat agree with this but don't think it's the main problem.

It's like saying, the 01 Rams can be stopped if you have linebackers who can chip Faulk, and a secondary who can hit receivers hard after their predictable slants and in-cuts.

I would say it's a stubborn scheme issue if the Rams are beaten and blame Martz. I suppose others would praise the winning team and say the losing team had nothing different they could do to win.

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I don't understand your argument.

Rushing 3 and dropping 8 allowed them to execute this "twist" as Welker puts it. I can only think of the Colts as the other team that can do this and still pressure the pocket.

It is now illegal to hit receivers after the 5 yard mark, so to make comparisons with the '01 Rams in that regard doesn't make sense.

Patspsycho said:

It is now illegal to hit receivers after the 5 yard mark, so to make comparisons with the '01 Rams in that regard doesn't make sense.

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I'm talking about how fans rationalize a brutal loss, after an explosive predictable offense gets stopped.

Some fans, at the time, would see it as Mike Martz's scheme exposed and being stubborn. Others would say the Rams were simply beaten that day because the Pats had good LB's and a hard hitting secondary.

It sounds very similar to excuses/rationalizations over the Saints game or 07Giants loss. You say those defenses were simply amazing and unstoppable that day, I see it as a predictable scheme issue.

Of course we need to let the offense adjust to the loss of a coordinator, but i disgree that it's guaranteed to get better.

An offensive coordinator is more a specialist, an artist, if you will. You can plan all year and all week for what you'd like to do, but making it work, putting the defense off balance, is another thing.

Then of course, there's the situation where the defense has a book on you and is determined to stop what you plan to do.

You either have a feel for adjustments, or for setting up the defense for future play calls in crunch time, or you don't.

Designing a ton of pass plays, then marveling at the talents of Moss, Welker and Brady, does not necessarily constitute creative play calling. Everyone's a genius in 50 point wins.

Weis is an offensive coordinator, that's why 6 teams are supposedly after him. McDaniels is a smart and driven guy. I'm not convinced he used the outlandish talents in 2007 to take advantage of the defense to kill teams with easy scores when they overplayed. Everyone looks at the SB as if it was a fluke, but our offense peaked in week 11 and we never took what defenses gave us, leaving us one dimensional and more easily defensed.

Play designing makes for awesome high scoring games. Play calling means keeping the defense off balance and having a couple can't miss plays you set up, available for crunch time.