A Wilfork/NT discussion

People here are making a fundamental mistake. That is that it is impossible to resign all three Seymour, Wilfork and Mankins next season.

You haven't really thought about the reality.

First you have to give Seymour a Hayneworth type contract? Impossible? NO! In fact Seymour ALREADY makes more than Hayneworth does, so he re-ups for a essentially the same money he is making right now, or even a slight CUT,but probaly a minor raise.

Wilfork goes up from $2 million to $7 million a year, an increase of $5 million a year if he were to be franchised. It woould probably be less on a long contract. Unlike DEs and DTs here is only one franchise and transition tag for all Offensive linemen. Even though we know the big money goes to LOTs and Guards and Centers make a lot less.

So Mankins goes up from $2.5 million to say $5.5-6.0 million or a raise of about $3-4 million,and probably the top of the Gaurd class as he deserves. So the increase in cost to sign all these players together is only about plus $ 8-9 million a year.

Why is this an impossible increase to imagine?

signbabybrady said:

If we got a Ted Washington or Keith Traylor type (which is easier said than done but..)for cheaper than Wilfork we could keep Seymour and might not lose out on much in the run game and we could use a situational rusher on pass downs which we already have a few of on the team.

Again I love Wilfork and I don't want to see him go. I am just wondering if it is wise to pay him freakish money. At the right price there is no one else I want and even at the wrong price but I guess maybe I am just trying to prepare myself for the possibilty that he will want to break the bank and that BB wont pay.....Hopefully he reups this offseason and gets a good deal that fits in with how BB works

Click to expand...

I think when you said "which is easier said than done" about getting a cheaper NT, you basically made the case. Name the nose tackles out there that are even reasonably good, on the market, and aren't going to retire in 2 years. It's hard.

signbabybrady said:

Again I love Wilfork and I don't want to see him go. I am just wondering if it is wise to pay him freakish money. At the right price there is no one else I want

Click to expand...

Ditto on all accounts and I think they're all valid points. This is coming from someone who wanted the Pats to draft Wilfork after his junior year.

If his wife's contract demands become too unreasonable, there are still options out there for the Pats. In the worst case scenerio, tag him for a year then go after vets deemed past their prime like a Casey Hampton or Jamal Williams in 2010. I don't know what their contract situations are or the cap situations of the Bolts or the Steelers so in a way I'm just thinking out loud here and tossing out a couple names that might fit.

Regardless, we still need a true back-up NT and would like to see the Pats brass take fliers in the lower rounds. Though it might be a pipe dream, there's always the chance that they'll develop into a solid starting NT regardless of whether a contract is worked out for Vince in the next two years.

I'm prepared to lose Wilfork if it means the Pats have signed Peppers and will also work something out with Seymour.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the defensive line of the Patriots in Warren, Wilfork and Seymour is the best in Pro football. The longer we can keep that unit together the better it will be.

Wotan_the_Wanderer said:

I'm prepared to lose Wilfork if it means the Pats have signed Peppers and will also work something out with Seymour.

Click to expand...

Wilfork is more important then Peppers. No question.

BB can use the draft to get much better value linebackers...

Not sure what the meaning of "value" is in the above, but three of the last four starting OLBs for BB all came at a considerable cost with the lone exception being Vrabel. This was also true when BB was with the Giants.

signbabybrady said:

I am not saying Wilfork can't rush the passer I am saying you can get a really good NT who doesn't have that skill and will cost less. I am not questioning Wilforks skills or the importance of the NT position. I am just wondering if you need to shell out top dollar to fill it when we have filled the spot in different ways in the past.


If we got a Ted Washington or Keith Traylor type (which is easier said than done but..)for cheaper than Wilfork we could keep Seymour and might not lose out on much in the run game and we could use a situational rusher on pass downs which we already have a few of on the team.

Again I love Wilfork and I don't want to see him go. I am just wondering if it is wise to pay him freakish money. At the right price there is no one else I want and even at the wrong price but I guess maybe I am just trying to prepare myself for the possibilty that he will want to break the bank and that BB wont pay.....Hopefully he reups this offseason and gets a good deal that fits in with how BB works

Click to expand...

With respect to all of the points in this thread, and to all of the posters--I can understand what you are getting at, and I have thought about this myself. While watching other DT/NT's this yr, such as Kris Jenkins, Casey Hampton, Shaun Rodgers, etc, I started to at least wonder the same question. It will always be debated by some as to whom is more important to us, Big Sey, or Vince.

I have considered the fact that while I agree with how important Vince is, especially to our system, I also think Seymour is just as important--if not more. You could go back and forth on this, as to who takes up 2 blockers on every play, etc. I have seen that the right side of our line is significantly stronger than the left, and I attribute this to Seymour. I think it will be interesting to see what BB feels, if he had to decide which one to let go.

And I certainly do recognize Vince's abilities, and I know how important he is. The whole point to my post is that I have indeed, thought about your question during the past yr or so, and let's say it's a very valid one. You won't find too many here who would wanna part with V.Wheezy, but it could be argued either way. (if you were comparing which one to let go) I just hope it never comes to that

AzPatsFan said:

People here are making a fundamental mistake. That is that it is impossible to resign all three Seymour, Wilfork and Mankins next season.

You haven't really thought about the reality.

First you have to give Seymour a Hayneworth type contract? Impossible? NO! In fact Seymour ALREADY makes more than Hayneworth does, so he re-ups for a essentially the same money he is making right now, or even a slight CUT,but probaly a minor raise.

Wilfork goes up from $2 million to $7 million a year, an increase of $5 million a year if he were to be franchised. It woould probably be less on a long contract. Unlike DEs and DTs here is only one franchise and transition tag for all Offensive linemen. Even though we know the big money goes to LOTs and Guards and Centers make a lot less.

So Mankins goes up from $2.5 million to say $5.5-6.0 million or a raise of about $3-4 million,and probably the top of the Gaurd class as he deserves. So the increase in cost to sign all these players together is only about plus $ 8-9 million a year.

Why is this an impossible increase to imagine?

Click to expand...

Very well thought out and presented - the numbers may be off simply due to market and CBA conditions as they present themselves next year, however, I agree with you 100%.

Synovia said:

For the record, Haynsworth's contract is almost all fluff. Its essentially a 4 year, 48M guaranteed deal.

Thats not all that far off from Seymour making 9.5M a year on a contract thats now, what 4 years old?

Click to expand...

For what its worth from a Jets fan I think Wilfork is someone you absolutely need to keep. He is down right scary. I agree with this comment on Haynesworths contract, except $32mn gets paid in the first 13 months, which is quarterback money. Stupid.

vince is an ath-a-lete in the flesh.

he's played every position --- you just can't replace a guy like that.

In this defense, priorities are defensive line, linebackers, then defensive backs. While it is often difficult to gauge exactly what effect players on the defensive line have, think back to when Wilfork was learning his position his first season and the defense was getting gouged on the run.

Jenkins has a 5 year, $35 million deal with $20 million guaranteed. He is a load in the middle but run around him and he wears down quickly. Wilfork is not as big, quicker, probably as strong with greater endurance and draws double teams.

Washington and Traylor were probably more like Jenkins. As such, the defense was limited in what it could do with the position. They were also significantly older and more prone to injury. The nose tackle has to hold the point of attack and collapse the pocket. Wilfork is actually quick enough to add a pursuit element to the position that few others at the position possess. He is a great balance of speed, size, strength and awareness that is not easily found.

I understand the value argument - give up a little and save money that can generate an overall improvement in defensive personnel - but this is not the position to cut costs. You cannot just plug a defensive linemen into the position and hope the player figures the role out.

Will Haynesworth's deal set the bar? Will Nnamdi Asomugha's deal have that effect? They received ridiculous contracts from bad teams. Overpaying to that extent pretty much guarantees the team will remain bad, so I would expect those deals will not be the norm. If a player wants stupid money, go to the stupid teams. If they put some value on winning, they accept the fact those contracts are not going to happen. As the current players seem to keep in contact with those who have left the team, I expect Wilfork knows what he has with the Pats and will work out a reasonable deal, not cheap but not prohibitively expensive, much like Warren did with his contract.

What are everyones thoughs on Shaun Cody as he was highly regarded coming out of USC. I think giving the right team and situation he could make an impact. With the contract situations of Seymour and Wilfork up in the air maybe if this guy could come in and do well might help us with thier negotiations. He has been a FA for a while now so what is the hurt in thowing him a bone??

CanadianPat'sFan said:

What are everyones thoughs on Shaun Cody as he was highly regarded coming out of USC. I think giving the right team and situation he could make an impact. With the contract situations of Seymour and Wilfork up in the air maybe if this guy could come in and do well might help us with thier negotiations. He has been a FA for a while now so what is the hurt in thowing him a bone??

Click to expand...

You are answering your own question by pointing out how long he's been a Free Agent. NE has had plenty of time to make a move in his direction, for the moment they don't see the value to the team.

I think you are right but if we had of lost Wright I would have been pushing for his signing. I thought that a change of scenery might help this guy as he has always played for bad teams.

MassPats38 said:

In this defense, priorities are defensive line, linebackers, then defensive backs.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure I'd agree with the order of the priorities. If we were to go back to BB's day with the Giants and the Jets, I think the LB position has been a higher priority than the DLine in a Belichick 34. As examples:

'86 Giants:

Starting LBs - LT, Carl Banks, Harry Carson, Gary Reasons. Pepper Johnson was also a rook on this squad.

Starting DL - Leonard Marshall, Jim Burt, George Martin. Martin was an 11th round pick and Burt, though he turned out to be a hell of a NT, went undrafted.

'99 Jets:

Starting LBs - Marvin Jones, Mo Lewis, Bryan Cox, Roman Phifer. James Farrior was also on this squad.

Starting DL - Anthony Pleasant, Ernie Logan/Jason Ferguson, Rick Lyle.

That the DL was more a priority to BB during his tenure with the Browns can be said, but even there, he did sign Pepper Johnson and Carl Banks and chose to draft LB Craig Powell with the first round pick while playing a base 43 in his last year at Cleveland.

think back to when Wilfork was learning his position his first season and the defense was getting gouged on the run.

Click to expand...

I actually don't remember that nor did I see it that way. I always thought the rotation of Traylor and a rook Big Vince held up quite well for the most part against the run. Actually, since moving to a base 34, I just don't recall the Pats fielding a shoddy rush defense including those in which Ted Washington was hurt and sidelined. Of course, there were a few games during the years when opposing RBs had good games, but for the most part, BB's 34 base Pats defenses have been stout in stuffing the run.

Wotan_the_Wanderer said:

I'm not sure I'd agree with the order of the priorities. If we were to go back to BB's day with the Giants and the Jets, I think the LB position has been a higher priority than the DLine in a Belichick 34. As examples:

'86 Giants:

Starting LBs - LT, Carl Banks, Harry Carson, Gary Reasons. Pepper Johnson was also a rook on this squad.

Starting DL - Leonard Marshall, Jim Burt, George Martin. Martin was an 11th round pick and Burt, though he turned out to be a hell of a NT, went undrafted.

'99 Jets:

Starting LBs - Marvin Jones, Mo Lewis, Bryan Cox, Roman Phifer. James Farrior was also on this squad.

Starting DL - Anthony Pleasant, Ernie Logan/Jason Ferguson, Rick Lyle.

That the DL was more a priority to BB during his tenure with the Browns can be said, but even there, he did sign Pepper Johnson and Carl Banks and chose to draft LB Craig Powell with the first round pick while playing a base 43 in his last year at Cleveland.



I actually don't remember that nor did I see it that way. I always thought the rotation of Traylor and a rook Big Vince held up quite well for the most part against the run. Actually, since moving to a base 34, I just don't recall the Pats fielding a shoddy rush defense including those in which Ted Washington was hurt and sidelined. Of course, there were a few games during the years when opposing RBs had good games, but for the most part, BB's 34 base Pats defenses have been stout in stuffing the run.

Click to expand...

Those were Bill Parcell's teams, not BBs.

Box_O_Rocks said:

Those were Bill Parcell's teams, not BBs.

Click to expand...

Thanks.
And the defensive system and priorities were different?

Wotan_the_Wanderer said:

Thanks.
And the defensive system and priorities were different?

Click to expand...

The guy buying the groceries was different.

Parcells drafts LBs: Taylor was on his watch, I'm not sure of the others. He drafted Willie, Tedy, and I think T.J. In Dallas he drafted Carpenter, Ware, that Purdue kid, Burnett... He's reported to be targeting LB early in this draft after fixing the DL last year.

BB drafted Mayo and Crable and some late round kids at LB. He drafted Sey, Jarvis, Ty, Vince...and you mentioned he went DL in Cleveland.

It just looks like Parcells likes his LBs and BB likes his DL.

Unless he demands ridiculous money, keep Vince. He's almost ideal for NT in the Pat's scheme. He not only ties up 2 guys, he also has the quicks to get after the passer if he manages to slip through..... which means teams *have* to keep 2 guys on him almost all the time.

Two-fers are cool.


//