So We Lost 3 LB

is there a six-man rotation?

BelichickFan said:

I guess that comes down to how the young guys look. Are they better to keep than the "proven" journeyman. Right now the Minceys and Roaches are fun to root for - we'll have to see how they look on the field.

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3 for the ILBs, 3 for OLB. BB does the same thing with DLs, and there was a pretty consatant shuffle of DBs and WRs last season. the depth, at least, seems sufficient at every position except LB.
need 6 guys, no dropoff. looking at the roster as of today, there's 1. Bruschi (prob. 2 more years), 2. Vrabel, 3. Colvin---. leading contenders for # 4 starter, probably ILB---don davis, monty beisel.
contenders for #5 and #6 LB---4. Claridge, 5. Banta-Cain, 7.eric alexander. looking at today's roster, the less visible contenders would be 8. barry gardner, 9. larry izzo.
then the draftee---mincey.
that's it, no other LBs on today's roster. i don't see brown.
seems like i'm missing somebody important...oh yeah! i forgot all about klecko!
IMO BB won't go into TC with a LB depth chart that looks like that. and if he does, it means we can expect to see some SPECIAL things from claridge and banta-cain.
willie ray, bryan cox, roman phifer would look good here.

Just two seasons ago, the Pats had the following depth chart at LB:

Vrabel
Phifer
Bruschi
McGinest
Colvin
Johnson
Banta-Cain
Izzo
Chatham
Davis

Note that Johnson and Colvin were coming off the bench and being productive.

Today we have:

Vrabel
Beisel
Bruschi
Colvin
Banta-Cain
Claridge
Izzo
Alexander or Roach or Gardner
Davis

Hard to say that we're as deep or as talented at LB as we were then. We have a lot of prospects, but the LB corp is no longer the veteran strength of the D.

mgteich said:

We're all a bit lazy. Could you give us the list of linebackers and either time played or number of tackles on defense, in order to see what we are really replacing. For example, how much did Banta-Cain play?

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Chatham played about 2 quarters against the Miami starters in the last regular season game, led the team with 8 tackles, 1 sack and 1 pass defended. As I recall, he played ILB.

LPHFM

IF WE KEEP 9-10 LINEBACKERS
If everyone stays healthly and there are no surprises, Gardner probably doesn't make the team, and we keep 10 defensive backs, 9 linebackers, and 7 defensive linemen.

IMHO, bb brought in Beisel for this in 2006; he drafted Claridge for this.

OLB
Colvin, Vrabel and Banta-Cain

ILB
Bruschi, Beisel and Claridge

ST
Don Davis and Izzo

VETERAN INSURANCE POLICY
Gardner

DEVELOPMENTAL PLAYER
Mincey

OUT OR COMPETING FOR PRACTICE SQUAD
Lloyd,Roach,Wood,Mays
===========================

bucky said:

This year, I'm OK with the 4 starters (assuming Biesel is the 4th), but I have no idea what to expect beyond that. The only guy with any flexibility is Vrabel. If he should get hurt for any prolonged stretch of games, the defense could be in trouble.

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I think we should make the assumption that Biesel will not be the starting ILB - and my guess is he doesn't have a really good chance to make the 53 man roster.

There have been a lot of comments that Biesel's performance last year was less than effective because he had to learn the Pats defense. I'm sure that was a significant factor, but I'm afraid that it goes much beyond that. From my observations, the big problem with Biesel is that he just doesn't play the physical part of the LB role worth a darn.

Probably the best way to judge Beisel is to look at the last game last year with Miami and then the Jacksonville game in slo-mo where he got a significant number of reps - that was after a whole season of coaching and Belichick practices and game reps.

He made one decent play. When Willie got sealed inside on an outside run around the offensive right side, Beisel slid over from his inside spot and made the tackle after a gain of 4 yards. Since there was no block to interfere with Beisel's movement, my suspicion is that Ted J or Tedy would have slid over and stopped the run for little gain or even a loss. Just my impression.

On one play that Beisel was in he was late getting to a gang tackle on the defensive right side - but he threw his hands up in celebration.

On the couple times when a blocker got into the backfield and took on Beisel, he was basically blocked back 5 yards out of the play and just stopped without even trying to shed off of the block and head toward the runner.

On one play on a run around the left side of the O-line, Beisel got to the runner as Colvin hooked around behind the end and caught the runner by the foot. As the runner is stretching out to get an extra yard, Beisel actually stood up straight and HOPPED behind the runner in order to avoid contact. I've never seen anything so ridiculous even in Pop Warner football.

On one play where Beisel moved on the snap up behind Wilfork, the runner hit the gap right beside Wilfork. Beisel not only did not ram sideways and tackle, he just stood there as the runner went thru the gap and was finally brought down after a couple yards. Beisel never even tried to tackle the runner at any time.

On a goal line stand, the runner hit the line just to the right side of Beisel. Not only didn't he ram over to hit the runner (he had a chancer to force the guy sideways short of the goal line), he actually moved parallel to the runner while the runner crossed the goal line. I've never seen anything so stupid in my life. There was another play almost exactly the same in the middle of the field on another drive.

I slo-mo'd all of his plays in those games and other than the one tackle I mentioned first, he was an absolute bust as far as any contribution.

I can't imagine, after a season of coaching and practices, that if he was so fundamentally opposite to what a linebacker is all about (much less a Belichick one), that any additional amount of time could ever get him even close to being even a marginal linebacker.

couldn't agree more with the last post.

arrellbee said:

I think we should make the assumption that Biesel will not be the starting ILB - and my guess is he doesn't have a really good chance to make the 53 man roster.

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I think you are wrong. Dean Pees apparently thinks you're wrong, as well - did you guys not read the quotes from him on draft day? The staff thinks Beisel progressed tremendously by the end of the season - they said it's "like looking at two different players."

I'm not sure how this and other anecdotal evidence I've been reading for the last few months has slipped past posters who seem to have quite a lot of info/analysis at their fingertips, but apparently it has. So while I appreciate the detailed post, I'm afraid it may be off-base. Beisel is FOR SURE making the 53 and the signs seem to be pointing to him with an inside track toward STARTING. Sorry.

patsox23 said:

I think you are wrong. Dean Pees apparently thinks you're wrong, as well - did you guys not read the quotes from him on draft day? The staff thinks Beisel progressed tremendously by the end of the season - they said it's "like looking at two different players."

I'm not sure how this and other anecdotal evidence I've been reading for the last few months has slipped past posters who seem to have quite a lot of info/analysis at their fingertips, but apparently it has. So while I appreciate the detailed post, I'm afraid it may be off-base. Beisel is FOR SURE making the 53 and the signs seem to be pointing to him with an inside track toward STARTING. Sorry.

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This is just my personal opinion, but I can think of several game situations where I would rather have KLECKO on the field than Beisel:

- 3rd down short yardage
- 3rd down passing
- 4th and 1
- situational fullback
- goal line
- FG unit
- Punt unit
- Punt coverage

Again, just my opinion, but I'd even give him another chance at ILB on 1st and 2nd down as well rather than Beisel. Neither can shed a block to save their life, but I see more upside to Klecko. He's stronger and tougher. Maybe there is something to Beisel I'm not seeing, I certainly hope there is , but I'm not in the Beisel camp after last year.

D-cleater said:

Maybe there is something to Beisel I'm not seeing, I certainly hope there is, but I'm not in the Beisel camp after last year.

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That's fine. You just should know that the Patriots Defensive Coordinator and LB coach feels Beisel is a better player than most of us do.

patsox23 said:

I think you are wrong. Dean Pees apparently thinks you're wrong, as well - did you guys not read the quotes from him on draft day? The staff thinks Beisel progressed tremendously by the end of the season - they said it's "like looking at two different players."

I'm not sure how this and other anecdotal evidence I've been reading for the last few months has slipped past posters who seem to have quite a lot of info/analysis at their fingertips, but apparently it has. So while I appreciate the detailed post, I'm afraid it may be off-base. Beisel is FOR SURE making the 53 and the signs seem to be pointing to him with an inside track toward STARTING. Sorry.

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That's interesting info on what Dean Pees said. Can you tell me where the quotes were ? A URL or whatever ? I would like to read it.

Any hints as to other anecdotal evidence that I might look at ? I understand what you are saying and am very sincerely interested and hope you can give me some references (by the way, not that it's of any importance, but 'anecdotal evidence' is an oxymoron).

However, the comments that I listed on the Miami and Jacksonville simply come from slo-mo viewing of Biesel's actual play. If you have recordings, look for yourself. There is just simply only ONE play (honest - only one) out of the two games that was even close to a competent LB play - and I'm not sure if allowing a 4 yard gain on a run around the right side of the line when he was unblocked was all that good. Maybe you can point me to another game where you think he had solid plays. I think I have all of the tapes and would be very interested to review. But it does seem like the last games of the season, after a whole season of practices and coaching, would be the most indicative.

Again, thanks for your feedback, and I hope you have some references that I can look at.

I do think that right now Beisel is the 4th starter and absolutely certain to make the 53-man. Personally, I dont think all that much about Gardner or Loyd, and the type of contracts they signed are bellweathers of what we should expect: veteran minimums with no signing bonus. Let's not get too excited, folks.

And as for our UFAs, including Freddie Roach... every other year we have one UDFA that makes the team-- Wright, Gay, Neal. But again, they generally have to overachieve just to take a backup role in their first few years. So, Roach's best shot would be to make ST and win a role as an emergency backup at LB. Thing is, he doesn't have the pure foot speed to make STs... which suggests his best path is making the PS and working his way onto the roster as a backup ILB over time.

With Beisel inside, Vrabel would start outside. Some on the board think it's TBC with the inside track at the 4th starting spot, but I dont see that. Claridge is my great hope for the future, tho. My other great hope is Paul Posluzny. Beisel is in the last year of his deal, and he'll need to solidify himself as a starter to get an extension.

LB depth is probably the biggest issue on the Patriots.

Last year the team was 7-2 with Bruschi, 3-4 without him. That was with McGinest still on the team. That demonstrated the lack of LB depth.

Losing a starting linebacker had far greater impact on the Patriots record than any other player. The losses of Dillon, Seymour, Givens, Graham, Light, Koppen, etc. all had much less impact on the Patriots success.

The Patriots really struggled with the losses of Johnson and Phifer last season - such that improving depth at LB was the obvious top priority in the offseason. Surprisingly, with the loss of McGinest plus Chatham, the Patriots are facing an even greater concern.

The options right now on the team aren't great.
Beisel doesn't play like a Patriots ILB.
TBC has had plenty of time to fill a role, with the LB injuries last year, with the injury to Colvin the previous year, and has shown himself to be a special teams guy.
Klecko failed to convert to LB, and the Patriots were forced to use him as an undersized NT and FB. With Le Kevin Smith and Garrett Mills, there are better options and he faces a longshot to make the team.
hmmmm.

Good point made earlier by Bucky. We really lost 2 LBs and 1 ST (Chatham). Tebucky and Mills figure to strengthen ST, but LB remains a problem.

As for the replacement LBs, there’s a big group on the bubble for 2 or 3 spots. BB has the competition he likes, and a lot of guys will fight for those few spots available. Klecko, Claridge, Mincey, Roach, Alexander, Loyd, Gardner all figure to be on the bubble, fighting to make the 53. There seems to be a big group out there that wants to anoint Claridge as the next Ted J, but what has he ever shown us?

Of that list of 7, who is the most likely to make it? My votes would be Gardner and Alexander. Of course, we’re all waiting for the next shoe to drop, as well…..FA or trade pick up.

Something tells me we could be debating this one for a while. This thread could last until September.

apparently they do, patsox

patsox23 said:

That's fine. You just should know that the Patriots Defensive Coordinator and LB coach feels Beisel is a better player than most of us do.

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this has happened before with a couple patriots players, but i can't remember one right now. coupla guys in the ron meyer era.
pats coaches say "you fans are great but you dont know football any more than we know housepainting".
the debate among fans continues to be, "is he average or does he suck?"
curious that nobody, coaches or fans is using terms like "excellent", "a real find", "has to be reckoned with". NOBODY thinks he's good, or at least nobody has the cojones to say it ou loud.
where is this gonna end?
the last coupla times, it turned out that the fans were right, and that the coaches had gotten to where they didnt want to admit to any mistakes.
i do dearly hope that it not where we are here in 2006.

AllabouttheVinces said:

There seems to be a big group out there that wants to anoint Claridge as the next Ted J, but what has he ever shown us?

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I think there's a large group out there that is pinning their hopes on Claridge. I dont think he's been annointed anything by anyone on this board-- just our next great hope.

The reason isn't because he's shown anything. Quite the contrary, because he hasn't shown anything (positive or negative) there is room for hope.

Certainly, on paper, he's a better bet than Roach, Alexander or any of the other waiver wire bait that we're taking a look at. Claridge was a mid-round draft pick and has been exposed to the D (intellectually, in any case) for a year. Who knows what his upside is in our system?

Beisel started bad, and even if he finished strong it's hard to have anything more than hope for him, either. But in his case, we have seen some pretty mediocre stuff. Claridge is still a fandom virgin.

If we are to compare last year's stretch run defense to this year's class, I think that we need a slightly different analysis.

How much did Chatham contribute to the last half run? How much did Chad Brown. Banta-Cain can get a few more reps, and many more if there is an injury.

The big issue is replacing the production of McGinist. The only issue at linebacker is replacing the production of McGinist. For now we have Beisel, the chosen one of the organization, a veteran who knows the system. And yes, Banta-Cain MAY get more reps, but not necessarily if Vrabel moves outside. Or Alexander might get some reps.

I do agree that Chatham leaving could open a spot for a special teamer, maybe Guss Scott, maybe Pass, maybe Mitchell.

ilduce06410 said:

the last coupla times, it turned out that the fans were right, and that the coaches had gotten to where they didnt want to admit to any mistakes.
i do dearly hope that it not where we are here in 2006.

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What in the world are you talking about?

not sure about your question

spacecrime said:

What in the world are you talking about?

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last season it seemed clear to me, to many of us, that beisel simply wasn't making the plays.
when the media ask BB about this he has said beisel is improving, his grades are better, and they're looking forward to the coming season with him.
fans: beisel's play has been average at best, actually more on the lousy side of average. BB: beisel is doing fine, getting better, no need to make any offseason moves.
how can fans and coach be so far apart?
i don't remember this difference of perception happening recently, but it happened a couple times when ron meyer was HC. in those cases it turned out that the fans were right--the player DID suck.
but the coaching staff never acknowledged it, just unceremoniously cut the player after a season or 2.
the coaches kept the player on the field for a lotta snaps, when it seemed obvious that he wasn't up to the task. why would the coaches behave in that way? it appeared, in those cases, that they simply didn't want to admit, by getting the guy off the field, that a player we'd paid a high price to get in trade wasn't worth the deal. wouldn't act on the obvious because it meant admission of error.
so, is beisel a player worthy of seeing 75% of the defensive snaps, or is he an unimpressive ILB who makes oddly bad decisions on filling gaps? i hope 'we' are wrong.

According to Tomase on NEST last night, Beisel played all of last year with a huge gash on his hand that basically made that hand unusable. If that's true, that injury could certainly explain alot. If you can't use your hands, you can forget about shedding blocks.

"We" haven't a clue.

No one is suggesting that Beisel play 75% of the defensive snaps. He will not likely be playing in any pass downs, whether one first, second or third down.

If it were up to fans, Mcginist would have been cut 5 years ago, Otis Smith would never been brought on baord, and certainly never started. As I say, the fans are clueless. Any time there is vast difference is opinion, I am 100% sure the difference is because of lack of knowledge on our part.

Sometimes, it seems that Management keeps veterans longer than we would. bb would rather have a veteran, over-the-hill backup, that a rookie or UDFA that are not very valuable for spot duty, or as a backup. Some here would also dump draft choices way before bb, who develops players, rather than expect first or even second year performance form rooks.

Beisel has been here ONE year. He played next to awesome ILB Chad Brown for half the season. He still needs time to develop into our starting ILB. bb chose Maroney and Beisel over Lawson. I agree with that choice.

ilduce06410 said:

last season it seemed clear to me, to many of us, that beisel simply wasn't making the plays.
when the media ask BB about this he has said beisel is improving, his grades are better, and they're looking forward to the coming season with him.
fans: beisel's play has been average at best, actually more on the lousy side of average. BB: beisel is doing fine, getting better, no need to make any offseason moves.
how can fans and coach be so far apart?
i don't remember this difference of perception happening recently, but it happened a couple times when ron meyer was HC. in those cases it turned out that the fans were right--the player DID suck.
but the coaching staff never acknowledged it, just unceremoniously cut the player after a season or 2.
the coaches kept the player on the field for a lotta snaps, when it seemed obvious that he wasn't up to the task. why would the coaches behave in that way? it appeared, in those cases, that they simply didn't want to admit, by getting the guy off the field, that a player we'd paid a high price to get in trade wasn't worth the deal. wouldn't act on the obvious because it meant admission of error.
so, is beisel a player worthy of seeing 75% of the defensive snaps, or is he an unimpressive ILB who makes oddly bad decisions on filling gaps? i hope 'we' are wrong.

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