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Breakout players this year


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Murphys95 said:
I guess that's when we ask ourselves, "what constitutes a break-out season?"

For me, in pointing out Warren and Branch, I would provide two benchmarks (statistically): Bobby Hamilton in '01 and Troy Brown in '01.

Ty Warren: Bobby Hamilton, played DE, recorded 52 tackles, 7 sacks, and had 5 passes defensed in 2001. I think that's a reasonable expectation for Warren to meet in order to have a "break-out" season, especially considering Ty was a #1 pick. JMO.
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396180
Ty is a DT, Bobby is a DE - were the Pats playing a 3-4 or a 4-3 in 2001? (I was sentenced to California and had no TV budget, not that I cared to watch Oakland and San Fran play.)
While we're looking at stats: http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235242
Sey stays in on passing downs and has a stronger pass rush, Ty is a two down guy in BB's scheme, that would seem to account for the sacks/passes defensed numbers, the rest looks like a statistical wash.
 
dryheat44 said:
If you cut Caldwell, Brown, and Jackson, then sign up Patten, Charles Johnson, and Fred Coleman to round out the receiving Corps, cut Graham and Watson, and sign Rod Rutledge and Wiggins, then Deion will probably put up a season equal to Troy in 2001.

I get your point and it has merit. However, it is not a "zero-sum" situation where there are x number of receptions to go around. With better players, the offense could improve overall and the number of receptions, yards, and TDs could increase. Indy's offense is a case in point.

It's the old "all boats rise with the tide" concept that you hear applied to economies.

My pick for breakout players of the year go to Tully Banta-Cain and Reche Caldwell. That is no knock on Jackson, I just don't see a rookie coming in and immediately producing. It's possible, but I remain doubtful.
 
Box_O_Rocks said:
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396180
Ty is a DT, Bobby is a DE - were the Pats playing a 3-4 or a 4-3 in 2001? (I was sentenced to California and had no TV budget, not that I cared to watch Oakland and San Fran play.)
While we're looking at stats: http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235242
Sey stays in on passing downs and has a stronger pass rush, Ty is a two down guy in BB's scheme, that would seem to account for the sacks/passes defensed numbers, the rest looks like a statistical wash.

Bobby played end in the 3-4 next to Brandon Mitchell (2001?), Funny-guy Steve Martin then later that year Rick Lyle (2002?), and then Ted Washington (2003?). He played DT when the defense switched to 4-3. He was best known as a run stopper, not a pass rusher.

Warren plays the same exact position and so I think the comparison is fair. In the 3-4, Wilfork is the only DT (NT) and Seymour and Warren are the DEs.
 
Box_O_Rocks said:
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396180
Ty is a DT, Bobby is a DE - were the Pats playing a 3-4 or a 4-3 in 2001? (I was sentenced to California and had no TV budget, not that I cared to watch Oakland and San Fran play.)
While we're looking at stats: http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235242
Sey stays in on passing downs and has a stronger pass rush, Ty is a two down guy in BB's scheme, that would seem to account for the sacks/passes defensed numbers, the rest looks like a statistical wash.

The Pats played a 4-3 in '01. Ty Warren is a DE. Bobby Hamilton is a DE.
 
Breakout Season?? easy answer


Its gotta be MAHONEY.
 
Maroney. A speedy stud, LoMo will make some monster runs on defenses blitzing us. No more "John Lynching" us to death.

Mankins. He establishes himself as a Pro Bowl-caliber guard. Tough as duct tape on steel.

Ellis Hobbs. He flashes to some big plays. Interceptions leading to TDs. Three times this year.

And Garrett Mills, the Joe Klecko of the offense. He'll play more like a veteran than a rookie.
 
James Sanders. he's a hard hitter who seemed to always be around the ball in the exhibition season. With his rookie adjustment period behind him, I'm rooting for him to be a pleasant surprise.
 
Brady-To-Branch said:
James Sanders . . . I'm rooting for him to be a pleasant surprise.
I'm hoping that 12 months from now we're saying "Sanders did a good job on ST and he had a valuable year watching Rodney Harrison all season".
 
Stepping Up

I think the two key guys are Kaczur and Mankins. They should be starting with Light, Koppen and Neal with two of them coming off injuries but experienced.
 
Lloyd_Christmas said:
Bobby played end in the 3-4 next to Brandon Mitchell (2001?), Funny-guy Steve Martin then later that year Rick Lyle (2002?), and then Ted Washington (2003?). He played DT when the defense switched to 4-3. He was best known as a run stopper, not a pass rusher.

Warren plays the same exact position and so I think the comparison is fair. In the 3-4, Wilfork is the only DT (NT) and Seymour and Warren are the DEs.

Murphys95 said:
The Pats played a 4-3 in '01. Ty Warren is a DE. Bobby Hamilton is a DE.
Seems we have conflicting answers as to whether the Pats played 4-3 or 3-4 in 2001...When I have watched Oakland play in the past couple years, they like to use Bobby as the RDE in a 4-3. I remember him platooning with Warren in the 3-4 in 2003, but this still doesn't clarify Murphy's standard of comparison between Bobby Hamilton in 2001 and Ty Warren in 2005. What is clear, Ty's tackle statistics are better then Bobby's for the comparison years. Sorry Murph, but the statistics lean toward Ty being the better 3-4 RDE - if Bobby Hamilton ca. 2001 is your standard, Ty is doing just fine and you've missed it.
 
Didn't they play a 3-4 in '01, with Vrabel and Willie on the outside, and Bryan Cox and Ted Johnson on the inside?
 
BelichickFan said:
I'm hoping that 12 months from now we're saying "Sanders did a good job on ST and he had a valuable year watching Rodney Harrison all season".

I was thinking more like he takes PT away from Wilson. At the least I think he will be the #3 Safety. I hope Rodney's back and 100% too, but if not someone needs to step up.

I think this kid has the goods.
 
High on the youth here as well. Wilson, Hobbs particularly seem to have shown they can break out, and can legitimately be said not to have quite yet. I agree that Wilfork and Warren looked pretty bad without Seymour around, but I think the dislocation there was due to trying to do all the same things without the anchor, as much as their level of play. I think they're approaching the level of their full capabilities - good, but not great. Prove me wrong, I'll be happy. Still, we get better on D line, with Seymour in for (we hope) sixteen games, and the rest of the line getting better rather than worse. I also feel the backups (Green, Hill,) both have great potential. Green's shown ability, and Hill is just waiting for a shot. I like where we are on D-Line.

At linebacker I think we like to hope rather than project, whereas the actual Pats' personnel department like to plan. It might be they're going in saying "Well, it looks like ILB is an issue unless we plug in Vrabes, and that makes OLB an issue if we do." We here like to think their offseason choices mean that either TBC or Beisel has shown progress toward the caliber of play the Pats need. I don't think so. I think we're hoping that's what we'll see, and that barring another acquisition, this may be a weaker spot for the Pats than in the past.

Part of drafting for value (not need,) and making runs at FAs based on value (not need,) is that you end up compensating for what's not there with what is there. I do like to think there's more than meets the eye in Beisel's, TBC's, or even Alexander's case - I just have insufficient evidence for it. Of course, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

On offense, the O-Line is going to improve, but no breakouts (possible exception: O'Callaghan. He's just too damn big to disregard. Put him in a gym a few hours a day and see what happens.) But the "replacements" of last year were getting it close to right by year's end. Brady certainly didn't have time to do Sudoku in his five-step drop or anything, but he had time to throw for four thousand yards. Mankins and Kaczur will just get better - another part of the youth movement - and having a healthy line from TC onward (Lord willin' an' the crick don't rise,) will build cohesiveness at those positions. But breakout years? Again, no reason to think it.

Whoever keeps insisting the speedy and petulant track star Bethel Johnson is ready to break out, is made of stronger stuff than I. I do think this is his make or break year, so I'd love for him to buckle down, go nuts getting his patterns tighter, and make an asset of himself, rather than just an ass. But he's functionally illiterate when it comes to reading the playbook or the writing on the wall, so I just cannot share the enthusiasm.

I like Gator-Aid (Jackson) to catch 30 balls this year, and I like Papier Reche to catch in the 50 range. Solid contributions, nothing spectacular. One or the other might catch upwards of 50, maybe even grazing the 70-80 category (Caldwell more likely,) if Branch draws doubles and triples all year. More likely the ball will be spread around more, with dribs and drabs from everybody and his uncle. Branch's production - anywhere from last year's production to slightly less. He's a known quantity now. Watson stays in the second tier of tight ends - we just don't let them run up Antonio Gates numbers here.

The trouble with projecting a breakout, is you need a guy to perform as a star in a system that minimizes them. Even Seymour draws "Richard who?" responses from the fantasy types and "overrated" comments from 90% of fandom - while coaches and other players in the NFL say "best lineman in the game, bar none."

But I can tell you which team is going to break out this year ;)

PFnV
 
rookBoston said:
1) LB Ryan Claridge
With three starting LB spots locked up, there's one spot up for grabs and I think Claridge is the guy to step into it.

There are only two other legit candidates: TBC, Beisel. We've seen Beisel in spot duty inside, we've seen TBC in spot duty outside... either one could have a breakout season, but my pick is Claridge.

6'2, 260#, wrap up tackler. He came in as a rookie with a reputation as a student of the game and a tape rat. So... what has he been able to do with the playbook over a full year?

The week before he was released, Chad Brown answered the question, "Which young Patriots teammate can we expect to hear from in the future?" with the words: "Ryan Claridge, the rookie linebacker."/quote

I hope you're right, don't get me wrong, but IMO we have NO evidence about this kid at all. IIRC, the only comment from TC last summer was Mrs. B's disappointment in his blitzing moves. As far as C.Brown's endorsement, I'd question his lack of comment about guys he has played with and seen on the field, prefering someone who didn't even rehab at Foxboro. Is he talking about Claridge, or the rest of the back-ups? Claridge is a great big question mark, to me. I'm thinking Mincey beats him out.
 
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OhExaulted1 said:
I was thinking more like he takes PT away from Wilson. At the least I think he will be the #3 Safety. I hope Rodney's back and 100% too, but if not someone needs to step up.

I think this kid has the goods.
Yeah, I was a little bit of a smartass there. If he can play, Sanders will find some time in the secondary even if Rodney is ready for game one.
 
Box_O_Rocks said:
Seems we have conflicting answers as to whether the Pats played 4-3 or 3-4 in 2001...When I have watched Oakland play in the past couple years, they like to use Bobby as the RDE in a 4-3. I remember him platooning with Warren in the 3-4 in 2003, but this still doesn't clarify Murphy's standard of comparison between Bobby Hamilton in 2001 and Ty Warren in 2005. What is clear, Ty's tackle statistics are better then Bobby's for the comparison years. Sorry Murph, but the statistics lean toward Ty being the better 3-4 RDE - if Bobby Hamilton ca. 2001 is your standard, Ty is doing just fine and you've missed it.

Sorry you disagree. As I mentioned, statistically I could consider Warren to have a breakout season if his numbers reached those of '01 Hamilton (especially sacks & passes defensed). I think those stats are a reasonable benchmark for the sake of defining "breakout."

...and I still wouldn't characterize '05 as a breakout season for Warren. Did he have a bad season? No. His numbers were modest. I like Warren, he is a solid player, but before Seymour returned half way through, the D was nicknamed the "flat-tire defense" for a reason - because they had no pressure! :) They couldn't get close to the quarterback. That's where Warren needs to improve - and numbers akin to Hamilton in '01 would constitute a breakout year for Ty. IMO, Warren hasn’t reached that next level yet.

Back to the gist of the thread - Ty Warren is my pick for Patriots player to have a breakout season.
 
Box_O_Rocks said:
Seems we have conflicting answers as to whether the Pats played 4-3 or 3-4 in 2001...When I have watched Oakland play in the past couple years, they like to use Bobby as the RDE in a 4-3. I remember him platooning with Warren in the 3-4 in 2003, but this still doesn't clarify Murphy's standard of comparison between Bobby Hamilton in 2001 and Ty Warren in 2005. What is clear, Ty's tackle statistics are better then Bobby's for the comparison years. Sorry Murph, but the statistics lean toward Ty being the better 3-4 RDE - if Bobby Hamilton ca. 2001 is your standard, Ty is doing just fine and you've missed it.

My thoughts as I try to follow this thread:

The Pats, as they're known to do, played both 3-4 and 4-3 extensively in '01.
They played 3-4 with Hamilton and Pleasant as the ends, and Seymour on the nose. But they played 4-3 much more than they do now. It would take a lot of research to figure out how many of Bobby Hamilton's sacks came in a 4-3 front, when he had pass-rush responsibilities, and how many in a 3-4, when he didn't.

Ty Warren was playing NT in 2003.

There is more to playing DE than rushing the passer. In fact, it is very unimportant to a 3-4 DE to get quarterback pressure. It's just not his job. You'll get a freak like Seymour who gets his share, but we all know that Warren isn't on Seymour's athletic level.
 
How about the coverage and return units? They've been disturbingly mediocre lately, and this offseason has been packed with ST signings -- kickers, gunners, returners, you name it.
 
Box_O_Rocks said:
Seems we have conflicting answers as to whether the Pats played 4-3 or 3-4 in 2001...When I have watched Oakland play in the past couple years, they like to use Bobby as the RDE in a 4-3. I remember him platooning with Warren in the 3-4 in 2003, but this still doesn't clarify Murphy's standard of comparison between Bobby Hamilton in 2001 and Ty Warren in 2005. What is clear, Ty's tackle statistics are better then Bobby's for the comparison years. Sorry Murph, but the statistics lean toward Ty being the better 3-4 RDE - if Bobby Hamilton ca. 2001 is your standard, Ty is doing just fine and you've missed it.

I believe they played both, which is why I talked about Hamilton playing DT in the 4-3 ... although now, having thought about it more, I am not certain if Bobby played DE or DT in the 4-3.

Where did Anthony Pleasant play in the 4-3? DE or DT? I thought Pleasant came in to play DE with Hamilton inside, but perhaps I have that backwards.
 
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