Garrard knee down on first JAGS TD

[groundgame]

Why Bill Belichick did not throw the flag on the JAX 1st series TD pass is tough to figure. With 4th down and a sure field goal in the picture if the touchdown was reversed, the question as to whether Garrard's knee was down prior to releasing the pass was extremely close to tell in real time. However, when you freeze (as the replay officials would have done) the fraction of a second that Garrard's knee/upper shin hits the ground, Garrard has still not released the ball. Ist quarter, it should have been a no brainer.

 

[SmokeShowin]

I noticed that too when I watched the game again yesterday.

 

[TheSparks1]

Considering it was called TD, was there conclusive evidence to overturn the call on the field? I didn't see clearly enough on the scoreboard. I assumed there wasn't.

 

[Joker]

it was close...in real time it looked like a definite knee...in slo-mo it looked close...I think it may have gone either way...the real story is BB didn't get a call from the booth quick enough and the Jags got the play off.

 

[bevster]

It was inconclusive. No point wasting a challenge.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

I think they would have lost the challenge.

I think the knee probably was down, although even the freeze-screen shots I've seen you can't really tell whether his hand is still touching the ball.

Given the situation, I too was surprised they didn't at least take a shot. You never know whether you'll need that time out or that challenge later. If it had been first or second down, save the challenge that early in the game. But for 4 points, I'd do it.

I hate the situation where teams hurry up to try to defeat a challenge. There has to be some way to tweak that rule. Like a team gets at least 20 seconds or something. If the other team runs a play in that 20 seconds, you can still have your challenge, and, if successful, the world gets put back the way it was. I suppose the challenging team might not do this, though, if the subsequent play was in their favor -- like an interception or something. But I don't have a problem with that. If we're going to have replay, we shouldn't let teams defeat it by hurrying up.

If anyone watches hockey, the way they do replay is interesting. Often, they have to wait until the next stopage to do a review, and they don't care. Whatever happened after the reviewed play is a nullity. So if team A shoots the puck and the ref says it hit the post, and team B comes all the way down to the other end and scores, if replay shows that team A actually made the shot and it didn't hit the post, team A gets the goal and team B's goal is wiped out.

 

[Mooch]

I don't care what point of the game it occurs, if you feel you've got at least a 50/50 shot to take at least 4 points off the board on a challenge, you've GOT to throw the red flag.

I was disappointed that Belichick didn't challenge that play.

 

[PatsRI]

BB said on the radio Monday that they didn't get a good enough look to make the decision until it was too late.


Go to the 0:18:18 mark and you can listen to his answer.
http://www.weei.com/pages/268228.php

use the Patriot Monday link then the BB link for 1/14.

 

[aluminum seats]

Was meaning to bring this up--agreed the flag should have been thrown, way too close not to try, particularly in the first half when timeouts aren't quite as vital. I was actually rewinding the tivo to look at it frame by frame, and was shocked when it wasn't being looked at.

They didn't handle the kickoff right against Baltimore either, correct? Think they could have set it up where Baltimore got the ball on their own five yard line. BB making mistakes, wow. It's like God making a mistake.

 

[NEGoldenAge]

To me, in real time it looked like a TD. Until I saw the frame-by-frame, I couldn't tell. Unless the refs can use a frame by frame, and I think they can, it would be inconclusive. He was down, but it wasn't a bad call.

 

[primetime]

To me, in real time it looked like a TD. Until I saw the frame-by-frame, I couldn't tell. Unless the refs can use a frame by frame, and I think they can, it would be inconclusive. He was down, but it wasn't a bad call.

That's why they have the headset on when they're under the hood. So they can ask the replay assistant, "Can I get another angle? Okay, now super-slow-mo."

 

[letekro]

Even in super slo-mo, my eye was unable to determine which happened first, his knee going down, or the ball leaving his hands. If you try to cheat and focus on one and then quickly focus another, you may think that you have the answer, but only by focusing on both at the EXACT same time can you really determine what happened. I'm not sure if the human eye is even capable of this. In sum, it would've have been upheld, but I think BB regrets not challenging it anyway.

 

[PantsB]

I couldn't tell from pretty close (sec 107 row 17, it was on that side of the field) in real time but it looked close. BB went for his flag but didn't throw it in time. The Jags were pretty snappy about getting the kicking unit out and the XP off.

I think it would clearly have been overturned because there's a great angle that shows his knee (actually his calf hit first but his knee was down too) with the ball still in his hand. In the end it didn't matter though and I'm not exactly going to call for BB's head over this.

edit
Excuse the poor quality, I'm at work but here's a frame from the nfl.com video of the play (replay)


edit2 I'll try to remember to get a better frame tonight, but its pretty clear if you go frame by frame that the ball was still in his possession.

 

[Patriotic]

From the replay, it looked like his shin went down before his knee did.

If there's a 50/50 chance of it being overturned which takes 4 points off the scoerboard, that timeout has a 2 point value. And since it was in the first half, I think you use a challenge.

Minor blip though. The Chargers are now on the Pats radar.

 

[Maroney TD]

In real time I didn't think the knee was down but on the replay I thought it was pretty clear that it was. I think it would have been overturned if the Patriots challeneged. I was really surprised that they didn't. Especially with it being in the 1st half.

 

[CTPatsFan]

Why Bill Belichick did not throw the flag on the JAX 1st series TD pass is tough to figure. With 4th down and a sure field goal in the picture if the touchdown was reversed, the question as to whether Garrard's knee was down prior to releasing the pass was extremely close to tell in real time. However, when you freeze (as the replay officials would have done) the fraction of a second that Garrard's knee/upper shin hits the ground, Garrard has still not released the ball. Ist quarter, it should have been a no brainer.

Like some others, I just think BB didn't feel that there was conclusive evidence to overturn it. I believe the shin, like a knee, makes the player down. As a complete homer he sure looked like he was down, though. I have seen more dubious plays overturned.

 

[Mungo]

it was an awesome play by Garrard, it was a td. This is what the NFL has become, almost everything is re viewable now, its killing the game. If Brady made that same pass and it was over ruled in a challenge as no TD I would be complete BS. The guy was clearly getting sacked but managed to get off an excellent pass before being brought down, next time sack his arse so he cant get the pass off.

 

[WhiZa]

I think it comes down to when does possession of the ball end? Garrard had one or two fingers on the ball when his knee was down, but does that mean he no longer had possession? I would think the ruling would be that he needed to have the ball touching his hand with all 5 fingers. From the replay, I think the ball was out before his knee was down.

 

[ayjackson]

It was inconclusive. No point wasting a challenge.

It was conclusive - that's for sure. When you freeze the picture at the moment the knee hits the turf, the ball is still in Garrard's hand. It's clear as day. The CBS crew never froze the picture at the right time (they did it when the shin was down and not the knee), so it looked harder to tell. I'm sure the replay officials would have frozen the picture properly.

Regardless, even if it was a call that could go either way, it's four points. The situation dictated a challenge in my opinion, and I think BB would tell you they made a mistake. IF you have a 50/50 chance of taking four points off the board, you throw the flag.

 

[PantsB]

I think it comes down to when does possession of the ball end? Garrard had one or two fingers on the ball when his knee was down, but does that mean he no longer had possession? I would think the ruling would be that he needed to have the ball touching his hand with all 5 fingers. From the replay, I think the ball was out before his knee was down.

You don't stop controlling the ball until after your arm is vertical (above your ear for perfect form). When his full knee is down (which was after his lower leg was down), his arm is at 10 o'clock, still changing the direction of the ball. This definitely constitutes possession.