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Maroney

  • Yes I would pick Maroney he is a great back

    Votes: 55 26.2%
  • No I would not pick Maroney if I could pick again

    Votes: 52 24.8%
  • Undecided we have to wait and see if he gets better

    Votes: 99 47.1%
  • The O line is to blame

    Votes: 4 1.9%

  • Total voters
    210
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Hey, Maroney knob-gobblers:

This was an entirely fair poll. A lot of people are concerned about his play.
 
Except for a few flashes of brillance, haven't seen Maroney play at the level expected from a 1st round pick. Hopefully, he improves.
 
Except for a few flashes of brillance, haven't seen Maroney play at the level expected from a 1st round pick. Hopefully, he improves.

Agreed. Kenton freakin Keith is just as good as Maroney in a O that is not as good as the one we have this year.

Maroney to this point , was a waste of a first round draft choice.

A rb can be had that can do what he is doing for FAR less. A first rounder is supposed to be a sure fire cant miss pick in this organization. Maybe not this time.
 
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I would have picked whomever ends up being the best at the end of his career.

Sorry, I'm watching too much of the Presidential Candidates' Debates.
 
71.33%* think it a great pick or are still undecided and these two do-do's are banging their chest saying that they are right about Maroney.

Only 26.39% agree with them, and they spin it like their opinoins are now valid.

*Due to the complete idiotcy of the poll I refrained from voting.
 
Hey, Maroney knob-gobblers:

This was an entirely fair poll. A lot of people are concerned about his play.

Its an okay poll I guess. Its kind of dumb because you could say that about almost any player based on hindsight. Was drafting Daniel Graham good? Sure, one of the best run blocking TE in the league. Unless you say, well would you have rather drafted Graham or Ed Reed who went later in the round? Well of course you want Ed Reed but it doesn't make it a bad pick at the time.
 
http://www.patriots.com/AllTimeLeaders/index.cfm?ac=Rushing

We all know what a terrible idea it is to go by what happens on a given play when a back rushes the ball, in terms of yards gained.

Well, historically, here's what's happened when our guys rushed the ball, up to 2006. The following Patriots, out of 51 people who ever ran the ball, exceeded Maroney's current 4.3 YPC average:

Steve Grogan (QB)
Jim Plunkett (QB)
Robert Weathers
Tom Yewcic (QB)
Richard Christy
Doug Flutie (QB)

Not Dillon, Curtis Martin, or Robert Edwards, or Marion Butts. Robert Weathers, a Faulk-like figure from third-down backs past, scored a total of 4 touchdowns in his career. I have no idea what happened to Richard Christy. The list gives him 1960 as a Patriot and that's it.

How do we explain that, since he's always stuffed at the line, running into his blockers, dancing, and so on? How do you account for the fact that his average gain is well above the league average? How is that a bad thing?

I think the "bad thing" has more to do with whether he's one of the greats. It strikes me that the whole question isn't whether he's good, it's whether he's elite. Sadly, no. Happily, we're not done with this guy's development.

But serviceable? Already, that's a "yes."

PFnV
 
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71.33%* think it a great pick or are still undecided and these two do-do's are banging their chest saying that they are right about Maroney.

Only 26.39% agree with them, and they spin it like their opinoins are now valid.

*Due to the complete idiotcy of the poll I refrained from voting.

Hmm. The fact that MORE people would not draft Maroney if they had the chance to go back in time, then would draft Maroney given the chance is a red flag alone.

Using your own logic we could say close to 80 percent of those polled are either against drafting Maroney or undecided. If you compare who would flat out re draft Maroney to who would pass on him the results favor those who would pass. Great attitude from the fans when talking about our "star" running back.


This is week 13 of year two. Maroney also got three extra games in the playoffs last year.Honestly how many more excuses does this kid need. It has been two years!!!!

Avg shelf life of a NFL back is 4 years. We are 50 percent there and almost 80 percent of people polled are against drafting Maroney or unsure.

Not good


Our opinions have always been valid. Only the kool aid swilling homers wont admit LoMo is under performing considering where he was drafted, and how coveted of a back he was. Dont choke on the red stuff.
 
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71.33%* think it a great pick or are still undecided and these two do-do's are banging their chest saying that they are right about Maroney.

Only 26.39% agree with them, and they spin it like their opinoins are now valid.

*Due to the complete idiotcy of the poll I refrained from voting.

Love the way you try to mislead with numbers.

39 against drafting maroney again
36 for drafting him again
68 undecided

Which means 74.83% against drafting Maroney or undecided using your own logic.

If we put aside the undecided for now the more significant statistic is 39 against vs 36 for. Which places the count at 52% against drafting Maroney. Go ahead and refrain from voting, it only hurts your side of the argument.
 
Love the way you try to mislead with numbers.

39 against drafting maroney again
36 for drafting him again
68 undecided

Which means 74.83% against drafting Maroney or undecided using your own logic.

If we put aside the undecided for now the more significant statistic is 39 against vs 36 for. Which places the count at 52% against drafting Maroney. Go ahead and refrain from voting, it only hurts your side of the argument.

Exactly. The against numbers should be close to zero in week thirteen of year two for a first round "star" back.
 
For the record, I voted "undecided" but some here are spinning it like the poll was leading. I didn't see it that way, it seemed fairly clear. The way people here have been calling anyone who questions Maroney "idots" and "morons" I think it's significant that only about a quarter of the respondents are unequivocally on board with the pick.
 
Yeah Grizz, but that's happening on both sides. The fur is just flying, and people seem unable to accept that there's gray in the world. I'm just tired of this drumbeat of your-#1-pick-must-be-an-incontrovertable-stud-in-under-2-years.

Here are the 20 guys drafted before Maroney:

1. Mario Williams
2. Reggie Bush
3. Vince Young
4. D'Brickashaw Ferguson
5. A.J. Hawk
6. Vernon Davis
7. Michael Huff
8. Donte Whitner
9. Ernie Simms
10. Matt Leinart
11. Jay Cutler
12. Haloti Nagata
13. Kamerion Wimbley
14. Brodrick Bunkley
15. Tye Hill
16. Jason Allen
17. Chad Greenway
18. Bobby Carpenter
19. Antonio Cromartie
20. Tamba Hali

I look at that list and my impression is: okay, some names I know. Yes, many starters (like Maroney.) One or two have had some amazing spells (thinking Cromartie.) But are you telling me Reggie Bush has been an incontrovertible stud running back, taken w/the #2 pick? How about Tamba Hali, the guy picked just before LoMo? Has he forever changed Kansas City? And D'Brickashaw Ferguson, has he singlehandedly brought the Jets a super bowl? Can you look at one team there that can't ask this same question about their vaunted #1 pick? I'd say New Orleans is happy, because Bush has had value way past football. But look at his production this year. Or lack thereof. Can you really tell me the fans who got Ernie Simms aren't watching Antonio Cromartie run back touchdowns and saying "wahhhhh why didn't we pick him?" Mario Williams? Puh-lease. The Texans were just happy they got DeMeco Ryans in the second... last year. This year he's got 8 1/2 sacks, and Reggie Bush is pretty much stalled. Oh right, okay, they're draft geniuses after all....

Oh, and by the way, you think the Jets are happier with Mangold, their center they picked one before Addai, than they would be with Addai? Trick question actually... they might be, if they are happy with Mangold. A football team is not just composed of those guys you idolize at the skill positions.

Add this to the fact that NE tells its guys coming in, you just have to play your part. It's not all on you.

Like I keep saying, we hit a single, thus far. And it might still turn out to be way more. I think the whole "Maroney bashing" contingent is just convinced that McFadden is the be all and end all in running backs. He might come into the league and be just that. And yeah maybe, maybe, maybe, BB and company will think the value truly is there, and make the move. I just think it's way more likely we address weaknesses than strengths. And the running game and offense in general are not weaknesses. Not our calling-card this year, certainly (the running game.) But not a weakness.

PFnV
 
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I chose undecided. I wouldn't say he's a great back yet, but I really just don't get all the hate. Wait and see... we've seen some great stuff from him so we should all be a little patient I think.
 
Agreed. Kenton freakin Keith is just as good as Maroney in a O that is not as good as the one we have this year.

Maroney to this point , was a waste of a first round draft choice.

A rb can be had that can do what he is doing for FAR less. A first rounder is supposed to be a sure fire cant miss pick in this organization. Maybe not this time.

The general breakdown of first round picks is the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 idea. 1/3 of the players will go on to be excellent players, 1/3 will be average to good players and 1/3 will be disappointments and busts. New England hasn't had a first round bust since Belioli arrived, and that streak still continues. The team needed a running back. Addai (24 y/o) had suffered an ACL injury and Williams (24 y/o) had suffered an MCL injury, so your "glass" argument would have precluded drafting them.

Here are the numbers on the draft, using Wikipedia and fixing the math on that site:

15 running backs taken in the draft
Reggie Bush was taken ahead of Maroney, leaving 14 running backs
Maroney is the player in question, leaving 13 running backs

Joseph Addai
Deangelo Williams
Lendale White
Maurice Jones-Drew
Brian Calhoun
Jerious Norwood
Michael Robinson
Leon Washington
P.J. Daniels
Jerome Harrison
Wally Lundy
Cedric Humes
Quinton Ganther

So, with your "glass" argument killing Williams and Addai as options, let's break down the group:

Ganther/Humes/Lundy/Harrison/Daniels/Robinson/Calhoun aren't even in the discussion to this point, leaving

Washington
Norwood
Jones-Drew
White

White is simply not as good as Maroney at this time, I'm sure you'll admit. His 272 carries for a 3.7 average and "only" 6 touchdowns are clearly not better than what Maroney brings to the table, after all. Also, White missed games last season, too, for the record. Washington is a backup running back on his own team, the R-A-T-S Rats! Rats! Rats! Norwood is a backup on the Falcons. Both have played well in their respective roles, but neither has been able to supplant the struggling veteran (Thomas Jones, Warrick Dunn) in front of them.

This leaves only Jones-Drew, out of the entire draft, as a player one can legitimately gripe about the Patriots not taking in the draft instead of Maroney. That's it. Just one. Maroney was generally considered to be the #3 or #4 running back in the draft, with the previously mentioned Williams in front of him. So, for him to go when he did was just about right, given the medical history of both Addai and Williams, and for people to be crying about the selection, particularly those crying about injury, is not just ignorant, it's idiotic.
 
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I find it amusing how people cite Maroney's YPC as if it is some sort of ultimate "proof" that Maroney is a good RB. His YPC in 2006 - 4.3, in 2007 to date - 4.3. (http://www.nfl.com/players/laurencemaroney/gamelogs?id=MAR273311). To anyone that looks at the big picture, YPC is hardly the conclusive stat that determines the quality of a RB.

In fact there is a RB currently on the Patriots roster that has had better YPC numbers, Kevin Faulk. In 2002 with 5.2, in 2004 with 4.7, in 2006 with 4.9, in 2007 to date with 4.4. If you buy the YPC argument you would have to say that Faulk is a significantly better back than Maroney. Faulk, our 3rd down back is a BETTER RB than Laurence Maroney according to the numbers. But gee some of you may say, that's not fair because Faulk achieved that YPC with fewer opportunities on the ground. But aren't these the SAME people that claim Maroney is BETTER than Addai, it's simply a difference in opportunities to carry the football? Can't have your excuse, oops argument both ways folks! According to your highly touted YPC stat, Kevin Faulk is a significantly better RB than Maroney or Addai.
(http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/FaulKe00.htm)

Ok now that we've debunked that nonsense, let's turn to a comparison that is much more relevant, and concerning imo. That is Maroney vs Kevan Barlow. Barlow is very similar to Maroney because in his first few years he split carries with Garrison Hearst, the same way Maroney split carries with Corey Dillon. In addition, for his first 3 years Barlow had very good YPC numbers - 4.1, 4.7, and 5.1 ypc respectively.

The 49ers thought that they had their franchise RB of the future, much like we once thought was the case with Maroney. But when Hearst finally left and Barlow had to do it alone, his numbers suffered and he became such a disappointment that he was eventually dealt away to the NY Jets.
(http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/BarlKe00.htm)

We see the same pattern with Maroney. He had a promising rookie year while splitting carries with Corey Dillon. But when Dillon departs and Maroney is asked to carry the load, he just has not been able to do it. Maroney's production is already on the decline. His numbers have been declining since game 7 of the 2007 season. Maroney has only reached the 70 yard mark ONCE in the last 6 games and he hasn't had a 100 yard game since game 3 of the season. That's over 10 weeks ago folks! The similarities between Barlow and Maroney are too close to overlook, and quite frankly they disturb me.

Another factor to consider is Tom Brady's health. With no legitimate running threat to hand off to, Brady has been getting mauled in recent games vs the Eagles and the Ravens respectively. I expect the Blitzburgh Steelers to give Brady the same treatment and load up against the pass, simply because they do NOT respect Laurence Maroney as a run threat.

Why do the Patriots need to wait until they finally lose a game or Brady gets his shoulder seperated before they buy some insurance at the RB position? They can do so as early as the 2008 draft. If I were playing it safe, I would buy protection ASAP to protect against a Barlow-like collapse from Maroney AND to make life easier for one Tom Brady.
 
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PFiVA-

Despite the sig, I'm not sure I wouldn't mind seeing that pick turn into some defense, but I do believe McFadden is going to tear up the league. He's big, strong, runs with authority, and has great moves. He's a lot like Ladanian Tomlinson and Adrian Peterson. I'm not sure he'll pan out that way, but he's not a Reggie Bush-type who just looks quick because the college game is so slow. McFadden is a between the tackles 6-yard guy. I think that's a significant upgrade, and then you have a Terrell Davis/John Elway thing going on, even if we lose Stallworth or Moss.

In BB I trust, even if the last few 1sts have been thus far disappointing. If they get the #2 pick and he's on the board, they'll look at him.
 
I'm not the type who salivates over skill players in the draft, I tend to think big, fast linemen and secondary players are the best bet, but hey... Look at this footage and I dare you to not get excited about this kid wearing a silver helmet.

Mute the sound though. That song is truly horrible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FCfZoPGEFA
 
I find it amusing how people cite Maroney's YPC as if it is some sort of ultimate "proof" that Maroney is a good RB. His YPC in 2006 - 4.3, in 2007 to date - 4.3. (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/MaroLa00.htm). To anyone that looks at the big picture, YPC is hardly the conclusive stat that determines the quality of a RB.

In fact there is a RB currently on the Patriots roster that has had better YPC numbers, Kevin Faulk. In 2002 with 5.2, in 2004 with 4.7, in 2006 with 4.9, in 2007 to date with 4.4. If you buy the YPC argument you would have to say that Faulk is a significantly better back than Maroney. Faulk, our 3rd down back is a BETTER RB than Laurence Maroney according to the numbers. But gee some of you can say, that's not fair because Faulk achieved that YPC with fewer opportunities on the ground. But aren't these the SAME people that claim Maroney is BETTER than Addai, it's simply a difference in opportunities to carry the football? Can't have your excuse, oops argument both ways folks! According to your highly touted YPC stat, Kevin Faulk is a significantly better RB than Maroney or Addai.
(http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/FaulKe00.htm)

Ok now that we've debunked that nonsense, let's turn to a comparison that is much more relevant, and concerning imo.

Wow, you take a solid example and then blow it. That's too bad, too, because Faulk is a perfect example of how you and the other Chicken Littles keep missing the point. Kevin Faulk is a very good running back and you're belittling him in an attempt to lessen Maroney. That's silly, and it shows that you've lost all sense of rationality on this issue.

Kevin Faulk is a career 3.8 ypc running back who does an excellent job blocking in the passing game, and may be the best receiving back in the game. He has always displayed the ability to run in limited doses, especially draw plays in passing situations, but has always been a fumbling and injury concern, as he gets worn down over the course of a game (not just a season, but a game) if he's the primary back running the ball. He is the quintessential 3rd down and receiving back, which is why he's so prominent in this year's lineups with this very pass oriented team.

Thank you for bringing him up and continuing to help discredit your arguments.
 
Grizz, I think you and I are basically in agreement on the "In BB I Trust" mantra. Hate to say it, but hell they're smarter than me. Deus, very well done thorough look at the draft class. I think this is all illustrating the same thing different ways. Maroney's good. He's just not your #1 fantasy team guy.

VJC: Patriots.com has Faulk's career average at 3.8

http://www.patriots.com/AllTimeLeaders/index.cfm?ac=Rushing

Look at the data you supplied: Faulk had higher YPC in cherrypicked years. In none of those years did he carry more than 55 times.

The two years in which he was given a share as large as Maroney's rookie year (175 carries), was 2000 and 2003. In those years, he carried 164 and 178 times, respectively, for YPCs of 3.5 and 3.6. In those years, he scored 4 and 0 touchdowns respectively (w/1 additional through the air in 2000). Maroney, with 175 carries, scored 6 on the ground.

The point here is, Maroney can be your every-down back. He just isn't Lady Tom, and he isn't Priest Holmes c 2003, and he isn't Marshall Faulk c 2000. You might look back, though, and say "My GOD I can't believe I argued against this guy!"

He's a single right now. He's not a home run. I can't say that often enough. Some little part of me will go "woo hoo!" whenever we draft a much-talked-about skill player, or wants that skill player so bad I want to urge trading the whole draft for him. But that's irrational exuberance. We DO NOT KNOW that Darren McFadden is what we all believe he'll be. We just think he will be. And the Vikes won't trade us Peterson for Maroney. So here we are (in the real world). In the real world, I don't see the smartest strategy for maximizing our return on investment being to give up on a guy who's performing well enough to contribute solidly to our system.

What you're missing is, we have a sure thing at his current level (contributing solidly, and able to be a 2-down back, in the 170-200 carries/year range.) Since some risk has been removed from Peterson by virtue of him playing a year, you would like to go backwards, and find some way that we trade 2006 for 2007, draft Peterson instead of Maroney, or whatever. Or maybe, since the risk is removed from Addai by virtue of his post-draft performance, you want to go back in time and make that deal with the questions already answered. It doesn't work that way. Going forward every path carries risks with it. Do you risk paying two 1st round running backs, and being no better off, and sacrificing the possible depth picks as an "opportunity cost"? Do you risk that Maroney might not be the best in the game, or even what you would consider an "okay" first rounder? Etc.

There might not be a tool that valuates risk in the Pats' front office; it may be more of a "gut" thing than that (though I doubt it.) But think of risks as a quantum version of costs - you have to pay to play, basically.

What I object to is that you give people this ridiculous choice of ignoring the risks that existed at the time of the draft, and drafting over with foreknowledge of all risks. Clearly, your bar for ridiculing any who for NOW stick with the choice as made, is that you believe you can evaluate all the choices with less than 2 season's hindsight, ignoring already the possibility that further years within their rookie contracts will yield significant results.

I would be surprised if Maroney is at the peak of his development. In fact, I would say the start of 07 represents a trough.

My sense is you're evaluating him at a low ebb, and urging people to "sell low". What do you offer them as a substitute? The competing alternative of Peterson. Were you able to make a deal for him now, you'd be "buying high." Same with Addai. I think this may look very different to you in a year.

PFnV

PFnV
 
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I guess Fred Jackson is better than LT because he has a better YPC
 
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