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Zach Moore or Michael Sam?

Discussion in 'The Practice Squad' started by English Patriot, May 12, 2014.

  1. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Ditto Charlie Ward.
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  2. JR4

    JR4 In the Starting Line-up PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The real idiots are those who do not understand how a gay man is stimulated by other nude men.
    If you are straight then just imagine being part of a NBA women's locker room.
    It does not mean you hate a gay man because you believe he shouldn't be part of a Men's locker room... it
    just makes sense if you have the right knowledge.
  3. Ivan

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    I disagree completely. Sam came out because he knew that his teammates had been covering for him all season and he wasn't going to put them in the position of having to cover for him as the rumors leaked out during the draft process. He really had no choice but to come out before the process started or he would have had to deal with it reactively rather than proactively.
  4. Brady6

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    He could have came out in meetings with the teams individually. Telling the media was not neccassary at the time.

    Either way like I said that is what I would have done if I was in that situation. Everyone handles things differently.
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  5. Christiancat

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    #12 Jersey

    Amen to this comment. I wish that I could like this post more than once!!
  6. Brady6

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    @Christiancat are you disagreeing with Tebow being considered the best college football player ever?
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  7. Brady6

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    #12 Jersey

    Tebow is considered by many to be the best or one of the best college football player(s) ever and he was selected in the first round in the 2010 draft and was out of the NFL by the end of training camp 2013. I do not get how you cannot understand how Tebow is the poster boy for successful college players failing at the NFL level.
  8. SB39

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  9. SEA_Pat

    SEA_Pat Rookie

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    Uh, because he was a starter and took his team to and won a playoff game and was selected at #25 because many people had him as a project in the NFL? As opposed to Ryan Leaf who was taken 2nd, and may well have been taken 1st if he hadn't been vocal about wanting to play in San Diego rather than Indianapolis.

    Just noting that Tebow became more of a lightning rod for criticism because of his outspoken religious views. Ryan Leaf is a far less admirable person who was taken much higher in the draft and projected to be a much better pro, but who did bupkis. BTW, I am not even Christian (or religious), so that does not factor into my thinking (in case you were wondering).
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  10. Brady6

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    The premise of the conversation was around players with great college production that did not have success in the NFL. Tebow defines that, he was considered one of the best college players ever and he failed in the NFL, he was out of the league within 4 years. Tebow was the QB of an 8-8 team that snuck into the playoffs, the team since Tebow is 26-6 in the regular season, and has won an AFC Championship in the two years since. The team that the playoff win came against was the Steelers who have gone 16-16 over the past two seasons and have not made the playoffs since. Tebow has a career completion percentage of 47.9%, and at the age of 26 years old is out of the league due to his poor performance.

    Ryan Leaf was a bigger failure, but he was not considered a great college player, he was drafted based on raw talent, not college production.

    Tebow is the poster boy for great college players that went on to failure in the NFL. There is not bigger example of it ever than Tim Tebow.
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  11. Christiancat

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    Where is Demosthenes when you need him? He's probably the best debater especially when it comes to Tim. So much bologna being spouted in this thread about Tebow.
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    Last edited: May 21, 2014
  12. Christiancat

    Christiancat PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    To quote my friend Deus:

    Quote from Deus begins "Not this crap again. It really needs a template:

    Tebow wins. We don't know why.
    He showed he could win at the NFL level. We don't understand how.
    He outplayed supposedly "better" QBs on the way to those wins. We are all astounded.
    All credit normally given to players who find ways to pull wins out of their asses is taken away from Tebow, for no reason other than that he's Tim Tebow.
    The stupidity of the anti-Tebow faction's posting continues to impress.
    Rinse.
    Repeat."
    Deus quote ends
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  13. Brady6

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    #12 Jersey

    But he doesn't. During his tenure in the NFL his teams are 19-31.
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  14. Christiancat

    Christiancat PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You take credit away from Tim because a HOF QB with 10+ years experience in the NFL took the Broncos further than Tim. Yet you decide to exclude mention of the fact that Tebow took the Broncos to the playoffs and won a playoff game. When the year prior to Tebow starting as a QB, the Broncos were a 1 and 4 team. Then to top it off you want to downplay his win against the steelers by saying they were weak that season. You pretty much give Tebow credit for his flaws and mistakes, but you don't give him credit for his strengthens and wins.

    I and most of Tebows supporters recognize his flaws with his throwing mechanics and how he needs to approve his throwing motion, accuracy etc. So he can increase his completion percentage and become a better QB. However, most Tebow supporters know that Tebow does have some good attributes as a QB and has won quite a few games when given the opportunity. The difference in me and you Brady 6 is that: I give Tebow credit for his strengths and weaknesses. While you ONLY give Tebow credit for his weaknesses, losses etc.

    WRONG Tebow does win. We know you are part of the anti-tebow crowd but give Tebow credit where credit is due.

    Maybe Demonthnes can come and you two could hash it out about Tebow.

    BTW Deus is far from a Tebow supporter, but he's not a Tebow hater either. He gives Tebow credit where credit is due and is very fair in regards to him.

    BTW I don't understand why you didn't come to this thread http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ill-hopes-for-a-career-in-nfl.1106766/page-13 to talk about how bad Tebow is and how NFL teams are better without him etc. That thread went on for 1 week.

    Your posts towards me have been rude and uncalled for especially in the Colin threads.
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    Last edited: May 21, 2014
  15. Christiancat

    Christiancat PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey



    Chris Weidman says it perfectly!!
  16. Christiancat

    Christiancat PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Tebow was traded from the Broncos because that team had the opportunity to get a HOF QB with over 10 years experience in the NFL. So of course the team traded Tim for Peyton. 5 other NFL teams were willing to get rid of their starting QB's for Peyton.Those teams even put in offers for him. That is why Peyton had offers from 5 other teams after he left the colts.

    As far as the jets he never got a real opprtuinty to play.


    I am going to quote demosthnes.
    Demosthenes states all the following below in quotes
    Everything below was stated by demosthnes and I quote him.

    "Complaint: Tebow has failed at his 3 opportunities !!!

    Let's see, with Denver, he took over a 1-4 team and went 7-4 with them, earning a playoff birth. He then piloted them to a playoff victory over the defending AFC champs with the #1 rated passing defense. He did this by PASSING the ball against them.

    What happened? Future first ballot HoF'er PFM hit the market. Manning was an instant upgrade for at least 28 of the other 31 teams in the NFL. Some number of those teams had pretty good QBs that they were tied to and comfortable with, but probably 15 or so teams would have thrown their starter to the curb to get Manning.

    After Manning was signed, Tebow was traded to the Jets. This was a clusterfark of a situation. Rex Ryan had more than a vested interest in keeping Sanchez as the starter, so did Tannenbaum. Rex pushed for the Jets to move up and take Sanchez with the #6 pick, and Tanny had just reworked and extended Sanchez's contract giving him a boatload of money.

    For Christ's sake, Rex has a damned tattoo of his wife in a Sanchez jersey. Without even getting into the question of Rex's lack of ability as a Head Coach, there was no way in hell he was going to bench Sanchez and make Tebow the starter. Seriously, how stupid would he have looked if Tebow took over in the 13th week of the season and the Jets had actually won ?

    As for what Tebow did do on the field with the offense, the O Coordinator was Tony Sparano. Guy was clearly in over his head which is why the Jets fired him at the end of the season and why he's still only an offensive line coach now with the Raiders.

    Tony liked to talk about how he "brought the Wildcat to the NFL" but that is patently absurd. Dan Henning and David Lee are the ones who were responsible for the Wildcat in Miami. When Tebow was sent in, everyone watching knew that he was going to be in the shotgun and was going to run the ball up the middle. Shocking. Hell, Jet's players and even Mike Westhoff questioned and shook their heads at how badly the Jets misused Tebow.

    So, Tebow gets released by the Jets and ends up here in New England. Many posters here called it from the outset when they said that Bill would only carry 2 QBs on the roster. Tebow came in right at the start of training camp IIRC. So, he was supposed to learn the playbook, develop some kind of rapport with the receiving corps and the offense, and beat out Ryan Mallet who had been here in the system for 2 years already ?

    Sure, he had McDaniels recommendation. As Joker noted, IF the Pats had decided that they should carry 3 QBs, Tebow might have made it.

    But, they only carried 2 for the entire season. So, Tebow would have needed to beat out either Brady or Mallet. No chance on beating out Brady, that's a given. So we have Mallet. IIRC, Tebow had the Pats playbook for a matter of weeks before the preseason ?

    Mallet had a clear advantage as he already knew the plays and the playbook since he had been here for 2 years already.

    Chew on this one. People gave Brady a pass for how he looked most of the season, because he was throwing the ball to rookies who had growing pains. Common thought was that it was taking the young receivers time to learn and grow into the offense.

    All a receiver needs to do is learn HIS routes and focus on what HE is supposed to do on any given play. The QB on the other hand has to know what EVERY WR will be doing on every single play.

    If you all cut the receiver some slack because they are trying to pick up and grow into a difficult offense, it stands to reason that a QB with 2 years in the system would do better than someone who had the playbook for 5 weeks or so.

    Dude, there was NO QB "competition" when Tebow went to the Jets. Rex was adamant about the fact that Sanchez was the starter from the second the Tebow trade hit the wires.

    Like I said, Rex had tied himself to Sanchez the second that the Jets traded up to take Sanchez at #6 and they doubled down on him with the contract extension.

    You will probably say that NFL coaches want to win, and that Rex definitely would have started Tebow if he was better than Sanchez. History of the league tells us differently. Jax wasted 3 years with Blaine Gabbert. Minnesota did it with Ponder. Jerry Jones continues to do it with Jason Garret remaining on as head coach no matter how many times they miss the playoffs.

    Teams make all sorts of stupid decisions and then double down on them routinely." by demosthnes
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    Last edited: May 20, 2014
  17. Brady6

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    Tebow was traded from the Broncos because Elway did not believe in him. Had he believed in Tebow he would have proceeded with the 24 year old QB and not opted for a 35 year old QB coming off a major potentially career ending injury. You did not see the Panthers (Cam Newton) attempting to sign Manning.

    In addition if Tebow was close to the type of QB you claim he is he would have netted the Broncos something better than a fourth and sixth round pick. The Broncos invested a first round pick in Tebow and accepted that in return. Also why didn’t any of the teams that bid for Manning and lost attempt to trade for Tebow, what franchise would not want a 24 year old winning QB as you say?

    I think any team in the NFL is an opportunity that less than 1% of football players get. In addition, the Jets went 8-8 this season with Geno Smith as a rookie, so it is not as if he was forced to go to a 0-16 team.

    This is all just excuses, it really does not change any of the outcomes, and if the NFL agreed Tim Tebow would not be out of the league, we have had two of the worst QB draft classes in the last two years and he still has not seen an opportunity.

    What you say, what Demosthenes does not matter, the fact is nobody outside of some third world country football team agrees with your belief that Tebow is a capable of playing in the NFL.

    Furthermore, it is moot point because he is a failure as of right now, maybe he can change that in the future but currently his NFL career was a failure, why or what does not matter the result is the result.
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  18. Brady6

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    I do not see any strengths, I see a player who launched a pass up, and Thomas made a great catch and took it to the house. Other than that, I see a player with terrible accuracy, horrible mechanics, and am not good at reading a defense or making quick decisions. I give him credit he was one player on a team of 53 that went 8-8 and won a wild card playoff game. In the games he won there was won that Tebow had 2 completions, even the wild card game he completed 10 passes, he was not the star that the Broncos hooked their wagon too, he was one player on a team that contributed to its success. You label him a winner as if he single handedly did it and nothing could be further from the truth.

    So what you are telling me is the record of the teams Tebow was on do not matter, he still win? He is a member of a team and if the team loses he loses, this is a team sport, you cannot pick and choose what games count against Tebow’s win record and do not. Tebow has a career NFL win percentage of .380. He does not win, and nothing you say can change the numbers in the standings, stop arguing against tangible numbers.

    I am not anti Tebow in the least, you are just completely wrong and you are in here defending Tebow when you know that he was a very successful college player who went on to fail at the NFL level (at least to this point). You dislike my posts for recognizing reality, that is annoying, you do not like the reality of a situation so you take issue with me for mentioning. That is like you posting that Hernandez was a very successful college player who went on to become a murderer and me disliking your post because I did not like the fact Hernandez became a murderer.

    Why are you inviting other people to handle a conflict you created, I did not start this debate, I said Tebow was a successful college player who went on to fail in the NFL. That is a god forsaken fact CC, there is no debating that, he is out of the league at 26 years old, successful NFL players without injuries are not out of the league at that age

    I am trying to think of a reason why I would care about this, stop name dropping, seriously you drop names like nobody I have ever seen it is desperate.

    Because I do not care about Tebow, I came in this thread to talk about Michael Sam and I referenced Tebow as a player who had a great college career and went on to do poorly at the NFL level. That is when your Tebow was mentioned on Patsfans alarm went off and you came a running to berate me with you endless excuses, and justifications, oh and of course drop about 15-20 names.

    My posts have been about the football player, the fact is you make this emotional and take it personal, that is not my fault, nothing I have said to you has been rude or offensive in the least bit. You do have your own agenda, you support Tebow and you support the 49ers because you live in that area, your posting consists of Montana, Young, Kaepernick, and of course Tebow. A blind squirrel could recognize that you are not here to talk Patriots but here to carry out your own agenda. I do not have a problem with that but do not suggest that I have rude or said anything uncalled for to you, we both know that is untrue, I show you more respect than any other poster on this board. If you cannot have a discussion without becoming overly sensitive or making it personal do not quote my posts or rate them.
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  19. Christiancat

    Christiancat PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I am here to talk about what I feel like talking about at the moment. I am a fan of the Pats as well as the 49ers, but I don't have to prove that to you or anyone else. Just because you may have 8,000 + posts talking about the patriots doesn't make you more of a fan than me or any other pats fan just because you have more posts than them or you talk more about a particular subject matter more etc. There are some Patriot fans who have been season ticket holders for years, but have very few post on the board. Again that doesn't make them less of a fan than you with 8,000+ posts.

    I will continue to stay in the forum regardless of whether or not you welcome me as a poster here. There have been many others who have been very supportive and welcoming of me here and have not attached labels to me because of how much or how little I talk about any particular subject matter.

    I can support a team in many other ways besides just posting about them. There are a lot of diehard Patriots fans who aren't even members of any forum including this one. Some of the diehard Patriot fans who are members post very little about them and lurk. That dosen't make you with 8,000+ posts more of a fan than them either.

    You are not to dictate when, why, or how I decide to post on this forum.


    No you have NOT been the most respectful poster towards me on this board as this post and a few others I have quoted clearly shows that. I never originally quoted you in this thread. You started quoting me after you started disagreeing with my posts in this thread on Tebow.

    I was very wrong about you and I'll leave it at that. I removed you from my friends/followers list and I will ask you to do the same. I will also ask that you put me on ignore and I will do the same.

    Ian, the mods, BradyFtw, Deus,Boogs,QB12,bostonstraggler etc and many other poster know I am one of the most respectful posters here and have welcomed me here.

    I brought poster Demosthnes up because he is the best debater when it comes to Tebow.

    You say you didn't come into that thread I linked because you don't care about Tebow. Well if you don't care about Tebow why did you quote SEA_PAT in this thread because you disagreed with his post where he mentioned Tebow? If you didn't care you would ignore his post about Tebow.

    It is not that you don't care about talking about Tebow because you do. Any chance you get to bash Tebow you do if the moment is right. You most likely didn't come into the thread I linked to debate possibly because Demos was in there and you didn't want to go toe to toe with him. You want to debate with me because you feel I am an easy target for you and you think you can win any debate against me because I am easy going person person who is not argumentative.

    I name drop Deus to make a point and that point was that you don't have to be a Tebow supporter to recognize that Tebow is a winner and that all credit normally given to such players is taken away from Tebow simply because he's Tebow.


    You BRADY6 STATE :I said Tebow was a successful college player who went on to fail in the NFL. That is a god forsaken fact CC.

    That whole sentence was an opinion including the part about him being a sucessful college player. While I agree with the sucessfull college player part that is as much opinion as the second part of your sentence.
    http://www.auburn.edu/~murraba/fact.html

    Fact: Tebow is currently not in the NFL after only playing for 3 years in the pros.
    Opinion: he failed at the NFL level
    Everyone has different views and standards as to what makes someone or something a failure.

    For instance many people consider Joe Montana to be in the TOP 5 NFL QBs to ever play in the NFL. While I strongly agree with that statement it is still an OPINION.

    What's are some fact about Joe Montana: he was born in 1956, he has blond hair,he has four children, he retired from the NFL in 1995.

    Opinion: Tebow is one of the nicest guys to ever play in the NFL.
    As much as I agree with that statement it is an OPINION

    Fact: Tebow was born in the Philippines, he's a christian, he's 6'3 inches tall, he played in the NFL for 3 years.

    I don't get how you don't see that stating he failed at the NFL level is opinion. Some people say if you lasted in the NFL for 6 years or more you are a success, some say if you had success and lasted two years in the NFL you are a success. Everyone measures success and failure differently.
    Just like some people say if you get anything less than an A in a class you failed. Everyone has different standards as to what is failure and success.


    Oh and you mention that if I don't like your posts ignore them and don't rate them. Well if you don't care about Tebow. Why don't you ignore all posts about him and maybe even the posters who mention him. It is a simple solution.

    I don't agree with every move the 49ers and the Pats make but I don't spend hours bashing players from those teams. When you support a team you are suppose to be supportive of all their players. For example, I recognize Danny Amendola had his minuses, but I also recognized he has his pluses. So there was no need to go on tirades bashing him. Danny was playing with a severe injury and was doing a heck of a Job helping the Patriots.


    In regards to how I post in defense of Colin and Tebow. I have actually also made many posts in defense of other NFL players like Phillip Rivers, Kurt Warner etc. when they were bashed on this very board. However, Colin and Tebow get bashed way more on this board than Phillip Rivers does. That is is why there are alot more posts with me defending Colin and Tebow on this very board. If someone was to make a thread bashing Philip Rivers, Drew Bees, and some of my other favorite NFL players for whatever reason I would be in there defending them as well.

    I also posts here and there about the Patriots as a team. However,I mostly like to read other members thoughts on the Patriots team and its players. That doesn't make me less of a fan. I have my Patriot Jerseys for Brady and Tebow, I help support this site with my contribution, and I watch the football games from home rooting for the Patriots and the 49ers.


    You ARE the one with the agenda not me. Anyways, I am glad that I got to see how you really are. Now it's time for us both to hit ignore!
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    Last edited: May 21, 2014
  20. Brady6

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    I never said you were not a fan of the Patriots, but you that is not your motivation for coming on here, you began here when Tebow signed, and since you have basically only engaged in conversations that pertain to Tebow or the San Francisco 49ers. I am not sure why my stating actual occurrences are so upsetting to you.
    You either quoted my post or disliked my post, either way I did not begin this interaction.
    I was thinking the same thing about you. I am not sure why you come onto an internet forum intended for discussions and debate and then have a conniption when someone does not agree with what you have to say. That is all I have done here, is disagree with you about Tebow, and that created this reaction, you would think I called you names or attacked you, nope I disagreed with your opinion on Tim Tebow.
    Until they disagree with something you write about Tim Tebow, then you will tell them how very wrong you were about them and send them off to pastor. Name dropping is your thing huh?
    There is nothing to debate. Tebow was a great college player, and he is yet to be successful in the NFL. How in the world is that even in dispute?
    I brought up Tebow because he was a great college player like Michael Sam to show an example of a player that had great success at the college level and failed in the NFL. SEA_PAT asked why Tebow was the poster boy for that example and I explained why.
    I am acknowledging Tebow’s career both in college and in the NFL, I used the word “great” when referring to his college career that is not a word generally used by someone who is bashing a person. He has not done well at the NFL level, and him being a great college player that did not translate to NFL success made him a good example for the Michael Sam situation. If you think reviewing someone football performance is bashing I do not know what to tell you but the things I said about Tebow were actualities, I was not offering an opinion I was explain occurrences. You do not like those occurrences and therefore you have become angry with me over it.

    You are not an easy poster to get along with unless the poster is agreeing with what you say about Tim Tebow, otherwise you are nearly impossible to get along with because you are overly emotional and take everything as a personal attack on Tebow. It is really ridiculous, that you let a man you have never even met determine how you interact with other people to the degree that you begrudge them based their opinion of Tebow.
    I was the one that said last year after Tebow was released that I hope you and his supporters stick around, so I am not sure what makes you think I do not want you to here, I want you to stop flipping out on me if I mention something that happened in Tebow’s career.
    Huh? You are really making this way more than it is, like this is much heavier than I thought.
    The only person dictating to anyone is you and this is an example of that. Also this “why don’t you leave Timmy alone” nonsense is so petty.
    That is good for you. I do not idolize another man and follow him around defending. You making any mention of what is an acceptable behavior are hilarious, or commenting on my talking about a certain player repeatedly wow that is pee in your pants funny, I have barely mentioned Amendola in months, 95% of your posts are about one player Tim Tebow.
    Rivers is not out of the NFL and Brees has never been involved in a sexual assault, smoking weed, or wearing another team’s hat, so I am not surprised they are not talked about as much in here.

    Honestly I am really disappointed in you, the fact that you would take a discussion about Tebow and turn it personal because you did not like the things I said about the player is really sad and pathetic. I did not think you were so self consumed that someone not sharing your view would anger you. I thought you were a good person, someone who understood that people did not always agree but they could still get along. I sincerely liked you as a person, and held you in high regard right up until this post, the other posts they did not even bother me, I saw them as a discussion/debate but this post is just a major shift.

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