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Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by b72s, Dec 24, 2009.

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  1. b72s

    b72s Rookie

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    Just spending a little time down the basement looking at the 2009 draft and how we could have had Matthews Or Laurinitus or Meuluega(sic?)

    It seemed the 09 LB class was stacked a few christman present questions.

    1. Will Tyrone McKenzie do anything? I know he was injured but does he have it? I do not want another crable situation!

    2. How does the 2010 LB class look? Or the convertible Dline class?

    3. Is crable going to amount to anything?????

    Yes we need pass rush and probably a Dline guy but just looking for the future Vrabel, Bruchi, McGinest Ted Johnson's?

    PS Mayo is great but needs some teammates!!!
  2. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We've only had about 1000 posts discussing these issues.
  3. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Only a 1000? I really wish people wouldn't hold back and place so much trust in BB.
  4. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ~~~Out of Order~~~ PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey


    :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:Our LB money went to Patriot Place.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
  5. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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  6. PatsFaninME

    PatsFaninME Rookie

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    I was hoping they'd draft Matthews myself but I wouldn't trade the draft they had. I think Vollmer is going to be a STUD and to find a LT in the 2nd round is huge. Maybe they don't land Sea Bass if they don't move down and stockpile four 2nd round picks. Plus it saves them a ton of cap cash.

    In 2-3 yeas we could very well be saying the '09 draft class was one of best ever. I suspect that Vollmer, McKenzie, Brace, Tate and Butler could very well be quality starters for Pats. Not to mention some of the other guys who already made the team.
  7. Feep50

    Feep50 Rookie

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    What the heck IS the deal with Crable anyway? I forgot he was on this team!
  8. Terry Glenn is a cowgirl

    Terry Glenn is a cowgirl Banned

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    he is waiting for next year, so he can get IR'd again. :rolleyes:
  9. Feep50

    Feep50 Rookie

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    Ahhhhhhh (Feep slaps his forehead hard!) My bad, of course! :cool:
  10. HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

    HEY BRO! WHAT UP? Banned

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    b72s:

    1. Don't expect much out of McKenzie next season - if ever. ACL's are very hard injuries to recover from.

    2. Mayoclinic knows the answer to that.

    3. Crable doesn't offer anything. He's just another bad pick that has delayed the rebuilding of this defense. I expect him to be cut during '10 training camp.
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2009
  11. The Intimidator

    The Intimidator Rookie

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    We have these dicussions about 1,234,567 times but I will address these issues in here anyway.

    We do not know how Tyrone Mckensie will be nor does anyone else, however, he was one of the more productive linebackers at South Florida with 118 tackles, 8 PD, 15 tackles for loss, and a 1 pick. He is known to be able to cover Tight Ends and is a very quick and expolsive. He could turn out to be the next Patrick Willis but he could be also the next Monty Beisel. We simply don't know and I wouldn't put sky high expectations for him for next year either. It takes time to go back from a serious knee injury, and some player never do.

    The draft for linebackers this year I would say is decent. You have an outstanding prospect at ILB in Ronaldo Mcclain who is one of the best overall prospects in the draft and can do just about everything from rushing the passer to playing coverage. Unless we trade up into the top 10, we won't be getting him. I see 4 linebackers being taken in the first round with Sergio Kindle who is a great pass rusher out of Texas who could fall to us in the mid 20'.Sean Weatherspoon who could be anywhere from the mid teens to the end of the first round. Brandon Spikes an outstanding MLB who could be a serious option if we keep with the 3-4. I don't see him much of an option if we switch to the 4-3 with Mayo already playing the middle linebacker spot. After these guys, there isn't anyone who jumps off the board as of right now.

    I really like the D-Line class, I see a lot of potential in the class. I believe that the Pats should target Greg Hardy from Ole Miss. He's projected by many to go in the top 20, which means that the Pats would have to try to trade up. I think this kid will be an absolute stud. He's 6-5, 265 pounds, and has apparently been clocked at 4.67 seconds in the 40 yard dash. Now, he has some injury problems, but I honestly think he could be worth the risk. He's probably the best DE coming out this April.

    If the Pats are looking to stick with the 3-4 next season, they could target someone like Cameron Heyward from Ohio State. He's 6-6, 285 pounds, and he's a great fit as a DE in a 3-4 system. According to most mocks, he could be had in the second round, which would allow the Pats to use their first rounder on the best available player, whoever that may be. Other fits at DE in the 3-4 system could be Allen Bailey from Miami and Jake Odrick from Penn State. They are also players who could be available in the second round.

    Additionally, if the Pats are looking to stick in the 3-4 system, they would benefit from taking a look at a pass-rushing OLB. IMO, these are the best prospects to fill that need:

    1. Jerry Hughes from TCU (6-3, 260, 4.64 40 time). He has 11 sacks this season, is a good fit to play DE in a 4-3 or OLB in a 3-4, and could slip to the second round. I think he would be a great success in New England.

    2. Von Miller from Texas A&M (6-3, 240, 4.60 40 time). He has 17 sacks this season, and he's only a Junior. Some mocks compare him to Elvis Dumervil. Either he or Hughes could be a great pass rusher for the Pats in a 3-4 system.


    Others to look out for are Sergio Kindle from Texas, Ricky Sapp from Clemson, and Eric Norwood from South Carolina. They could possibly fall to the Pats in the 3rd round.

    Also guys like Brandon Graham out of Michigan should be condisered. He is a great pass rushing DE/OLB. He fits the Patriots mold with a great football IQ, pass rushing ability, and able to play two different positions.

    Carlos Dunlap and Greg Hardy are the two most attractive here who could either drop to us in the first round, or will be within distance to trade with us having 3 second round picks. Dunlap is a beast and a top 10 talent, but with his recent charcter/ off the field issues, it could turn them away. I would be jerking off if he is in the 20's.

    I think we could reasonably draft two DE/OLB with our first two picks and then address other needs with other picks.

    The Patriots are actually in a good position to select the best player available considering they have 3 second round picks. The greatest positions of need are DE and OLB, both can be addressed in the second round. If a new CBA isn't in place and 2010 is uncapped, the 2010 draft class will be extremely deep due to the fact that the new CBA will likely have a rookie salary cap. Many underclassmen will most likely enter the 2010 draft in hopes of landing decent sized contracts.

    Ehh about Shawn Crable. The jury is still out, but how the coaching staff has handled him and his injury proneness is making him look like the next bust. He was supposed to be molded into a pass rusher and it hasn't come to be. I wouldn't be holding you're breath on him.
  12. Bring Back Antowain!

    Bring Back Antowain! Rookie

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    Okay, ACL's aren't that hard to recover from, I've had my own. They suck, they take time, you always feel a little hesitation, but you can recover, essentially fully.

    We were hearing all positive things about McKenzie before he went down in mini-camp. He's a smart player, and I expect he's working hard to be mentally ready for next season. He has some nice physical tools, and saying he might never amount to much is way to early of a call.

    I actually do have some expectations for him, I think he could be a nice contributor for this team.
  13. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You can divide up the potential 2010 class of LBs several ways:

    1. Guys who currently play DE, but who have enough athleticism to play the elephant in a 3-4. These potentiall include:

    - Carlos Dunlap, Florida (junior) - 6'6" 270+# athletic freak who has been plagued by inconsistency and off-field issues. Boom or bust.
    - Derrick Morgan, Georgia Tech (junior) - 6'4" 268# bull, a bit in the Shawne Merriman mold. May not be fluid enough to play in space. Probable top-15 pick as a 4-3 DE.
    - Jason Pierre-Paul, USF (junior) - 6'6" 265# guy with 4.6 speed and an 81" wingspan. A young Javon Kearse, who is still very raw. Will probably come out and go 1st round based on his upside, but needs time to develop.
    - Greg Hardy, Mississippi - 6'5" 265# guy with 4.67 speed and tremendous pass rushing moves, who has been plagued by injuries and inconsistency. Once considered a top 20 pick, he may not need a tradeup, and could even go 2nd round because of injury concerns.
    - Greg Romeus, Pittsburgh (junior) - 6'5" 265# guy with good speed and athleticism, strong against the run as well as rushing the passer. Still developing.
    - Jeremy Beal, Oklahoma (junior) - 6'3" 260# former LB who now plays mostly DE, but is very versatile. Good in all facets of the game.
    - Everson Griffen, USC (junior) - 6'3" 270#+ guy with 4.6 speed and long arms. Inconsistent, but high upside. Rumored to be staying in school.
    - Brandon Graham, Michigan - 6'2" 268# DE with a very high motor, strong against the run and a terrific pass rusher. May not be fluid enough to play in space.
    - Austin Lane, Murray St. - 6'6" 260# freak with DeMarcus Ware-like agility numbers, but who has played against inferior competition.

    The big question with these guys is which ones have the athleticism and fluidity to play in space. I like Romeus, Lane, Beal, Hardy and Pierre-Paul. Most guys have at least one question mark - height, fluidity, inconsistency, injuries, inferior competition, etc.

    2. Guys Who Project to 3-4 LB's (either inside or out), with some potential to play LB in a 4-3 scheme as well. These guys aren't really 4-3 DE's, or have serious questions about their size and ability to play DE in the 4-3. These guys include:

    - Rolando McClain, Alabama (junior) - 3-4 SILB or 4-3 SAM. 6'4" 255#. Top 10-15 pick, possibly higher.
    - Sergio Kindle, Texas - 6'4" 255# guy with a lot of athleticism, but still technically a bit raw. Considered a top 15 pick at the beginning of the season, hasn't really dominated as expected. 3-4 OLB or 4-3 SAM, most likely.
    - Jerry Hughes, TCU - 6'3" 257# pass rushing demon. May be too light to play 4-3 DE. Not clear how well he can play in space as a 3-4 OLB. Great motor.
    - Von Miller, Texas A&M - 6'3" 240# DE who mostly plays rush OLB, in the Elvis Dumervil mold. Fabulous speed rusher, led the nation in sacks with 17. Small, currently weak against the run. Probably a 3-4 OLB at the next level. Could bulk up to the 250 range. TFYdraft (Tony Pauline's website) says the Pats and Steelers have shown interest in him.
    - Ricky Sapp, Clemson - 6'5" 245# speed guy, a bit reminiscent of a more athletic Shawn Crable or Manny Lawson.
    - Eric Norwood, South Carolina - 6'1" 252# former DE who could probably play 3-4 SILB or OLB and 4-3 SAM. Offers great flexibility.

    Other guys in this group include Jermaine Cunningham (Florida), Brandon Lang (Troy), Jason Worilds (Virginia Tech), O'Brien Schofield (Wisconsin), and Lindsey Witten (Connecticut), among others.

    3. Guys who appear to be more 4-3 LB prospects. These include:

    - Brandon Spikes, Florida - once thought of as a 3-4 SILB, now appears to be more of a 4-3 SAM or MLB. Good leader. Limited athletic ability and upside.
    - Sean Weatherspoon, Missouri - leading senior WLB, could possibly also play 3-4 WILB. Great range and tackling ability.
    - Travis Lewis, Oklahoma (junior) - pure 4-3 WLB.
    - Navorra Bowman, Penn St. (junior) - pure 4-3 WLB.
    - Bruce Carter, North Carolina (junior) - pure 4-3 WLB with great range and playmaking ability. Said to be returning for his senior year.

    So there's a tremendous amount of depth and variety at the LB position that is eligible for the 2010 draft. Some of the junior prospects may not come out, but many will. Who you like depends a lot on stylistic preference and scheme.

    Since BB has professed a bias towards tall guys who have the strength to set the edge and the athleticism to play in space, I'm personally most interested in the first group. But I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the Pats draft someone from the second group.
  14. The Intimidator

    The Intimidator Rookie

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    Vey nice job here. Howver, Didn't I just say most of this?
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2009
  15. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Some, not all. I broke it down systematically into distinct groups and covered some people that you didn't mention, that's all.
  16. The Intimidator

    The Intimidator Rookie

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    Oh alright...
  17. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Some thoughts on your earlier post:

    1. I agree about Cameron Heyward at 3-4 DE. I think he's the best draft-eligible 5-technique prospect, including Ndamukong Suh, and could be another Richard Seymour. Rumor is he's leaning towards going back to Ohio St., in which case he will be a possible top 10 pick for 2011, but even if he comes out I think your 2nd round estimate is generous. Several people think he could end up top 15-20 this year, and I'd be thrilled to get him with our late 1st round pick. I think he's someone I would definitely consider a 1st round value (along with ILB Rolando McClain and CB Joe Haden), whereas there are so many pass rushers that I'm not sure any one stands out enough to be a clear first round value over the others.

    2. I agree with your assessment about potentially picking up 2 DE/OLB pass rushers in the first 2 rounds. Given the likely depth I'm not sure we need to use our first 2 picks, but it's certainly a possibility.

    3. I also like Greg Hardy a lot, but his injury history is a major concern. It's too early to tell where his stock will end up. He was a top 20 (possibly top 15) prospect at one time, but right now he could go anywhere in the first 2 rounds. Some people think he could drop out of the first 2 rounds altogether. I think that's unlikely, but I'm less eager to target him until I get a better sense of his injury history, and I'm not sure it would take a trade up.

    4. Given BB's history of liking "big" 3-4 OLBs (6'4"-6'6" guys in the 260 lb. + range) with the strength and technique to set the edge and take on linemen, I favor athletic DEs like Hardy, Jason Pierre-Paul, Greg Romeus, Austen Lane and Jeremy Beal over speed rushers like Von Miller, Jerry Hughes, Sergio Kindle and Ricky Sapp. I agree that Miller and Hughes are probably the most interesting 2 in this latter group. I just don't see them being strong enough against the run and setting the edge to be 3-down players. I'd love to get 2 of that first group of players, but I could see BB combining one of each group for complementary skills. My personal preference would be to see Austen Lane (who I think has the best athletic skill set to play in space and could become another DeMarcus Ware) along with one of Hardy, Romeus or Pierre-Paul. I vary daily (if not more often) on which of those 3 guys I prefer the most.

    5. I tend to think that Derrick Morgan and Brandon Graham are more 4-3 DE's right now, without the agility to play well in space, but I'd like to give them a better look. Carlos Dunlap is in a class by himself - I'm not sure where he fits, and that combined with his inconsistency and off-field issues scares me off.
  18. jays52

    jays52 Rookie

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    Goddamn do I love your posts, Mayo.
  19. klinefan

    klinefan Banned

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    I hope you're wrong. What is wrong with Crable? He was huge in tfl and sacks in college, how is any player coming out an improvement over him if he can't make it? I think we need to figure out what went wrong here.

    Hopefully he really was injured and will make a full recovery. He supposedly is very quick off the edge. Maybe have him as a pass rushing specialist.

    I've said less negative things on here than that and everyone despises me for it!
  20. Sicilian

    Sicilian Rookie

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    I didn't realize new construction counted under the salary cap.
  21. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Watching my recording of the Rutgers bowl victory over UCF, the OLB name to look at is Rutgers DE George Johnson. He got some consistent pressure on the UCF Redshirt Senior QB, including one to help force a pick six. NFL Draft Scout has him projected as a 7th/UDFA in the draft and reports him as 6'4 1/8" 265.
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2009
  22. satz

    satz Rookie

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    Listening to Ted Johnson it was his take that the LB we have in the middle are more suited to play in 4-3. He says some of the struggles we are having is Mayo is a great a weak LB but not the SILB he is now playing.
    Him and guyton to no rush the gaurds and like to engage them.

    what we are lagging is a true nasty big 260 ILB who can rush gaurds and load the line at LOS.He will not be fast but needs to free up mayo so he can again get to his rookie of the year form .

    If we get a thumper and mayo in the middle with another ILB in rotation i would move guyton to play on the weak side so he can pick up RB and engage TE.He is a OLB in 4-3 and even now struggles in ILB.With his speed he can rush the passer over the TE or RT and in shallow routes cover them.

    So what need are 1 ILB. a big ,obviously slow thumper.A OLB who is big and can rush the passer.then move banta to the other side and rotate with guyton.
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2009
  23. Brarrell

    Brarrell Rookie

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    They the Pats will simply trade their 1st round pick for a 2nd round this year and a 3rd the following year thats value. You know you don't have to pay signing bonus cash.
  24. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Rookie

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    #12 Jersey
    Two options for a big ILB are trading up and drafting ILB McClain from Alabama or moving Thomas back to SILB, which is where I think he should have stayed for his entire career in New England.

    As for pass rushing,there is no Ware in this draft. The best BB can do is to draft a kid with a few warts and "coach him up" for a year or two and then we should have something special as an OLB pass rusher.

    For the short term however,BB's best bet is to sign a free agent in the offseason.
  25. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Interesting take from TJ. It needs to be noted in response, though, that Mayo looked better last season in the 3-4 than he has this year in 4-3 packages. How much of that is learning curve, how much is injury and how much is better fit are things for the coaches to figure out.
  26. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Bingo. Direct hit.

    Guyton and Mayo are both WILB's. Mayo is fine as a 4-3 MLB or as a 3-4 WILB, but he's really not suited to be a 3-4 SILB. It doesn't play to his strengths or use him most effectively. A true SILB to anchor the middle would do wonders for this defense.

    Thomas was a terrific SILB, and I agree that he should have stayed inside. I Thomas and Mayo would have been an extremely solid middle, and I never thought Thomas was good enough outside to warrant depleting the middle. But BB was forced to move Thomas outside because he failed to develop an effective OLB pipeline through the draft.

    Rolando McClain would be my preferred alternative at this point, but it's not clear that even a trade up would be able to get him. If Thomas stays on, moving him to SILB is a great backup plan. Some other alternatives would include signing FA Karlos Dansby, who would make a great SILB but would be very expensive, or drafting Eric Norwood from South Carolina, who is probably the 2nd best SILB candidate in the draft (after McClain). But I like your 2 plans, along with drafting a couple of developmental OLBs and possibly bringing in a FA like Shawne Merriman, or Aaron Kampman.
  27. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We have limited resources. I do not favor using two draft picks to trade up for a high-priced ILB. We have Mayo, Guyton and McKenzie. We also could sign a free agent if more help were needed. Moving Thomas over is an expensive option. His cost is about $5M of new money.

    Thomas would never have been traded for to play inside. It is only his injuries that make it seem that he is better inside. If that is true, he probably should be waived. That was not an option before this season because of the cap hit.

    As far as Thomas as an OLB, he sets the edge at least as well as Woods.

  28. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thomas is an expensive option no matter what. His cost is at least $5M no matter what we do with him - cut him, trade him, play him at OLB, or play him at SILB. Why not use him for where he has the most value?

    Yes, he is effective at setting the edge and dropping into coverage. But "he sets the edge at least as well as Woods" doesn't seem sufficient to me to justify his $5M cost. I'd rather move him inside and let him take a pounding to earn his $5M, freeing up Mayo to actually make plays as the WILB.

    Thomas (who was signed as a FA, not traded for, BTW) was signed in large part because of his versatility. BB played him at SILB his first year because that is where he needed Thomas, and Thomas did well. I doubt BB would have any hesitation about playing Thomas at any position where he felt Thomas could make the most difference.

    I'd rather draft McClain and plug him in, but the trade up cost might be prohibitive, and, as you say, we have limited resources. But I think a true playmaker at SILB in the middle to complement Mayo would do wonders for our defense, and would be well worth the cost.
  29. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Everything is a limited resource. The Patriots have more of this particular resource than anyone else, and can afford to use some to move up. As for Guyton, he's a fine backup linebacker and can be helpful on passing downs.

    Thomas was signed for his versatility. That included the ability to play ILB and OLB. While I agree that he has historically been better on the outside, he doesn't seem to have won over the coaching staff playing there. If he does return to the team, perhaps a shift to the inside will spark wanted change.
  30. The Intimidator

    The Intimidator Rookie

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    Where are you seeing inconsistency with Dunlap? Besides his injury prone freshman season he has put up 36 tackles 7 sacks in 2008 and 32 tackles 9 sacks in his Junior year. I don't see any pattern of inconsistency here at all. He is 6’6 - 290 lbs with outstanding speed and strength. He also comes from the toughest conference in the SEC. With his recent off the field issues, he will be probably drop, however I wouldn't be scared off enough to take him in the low to mid 20's. This kid is a super athlete and could bring us that pass rush that we desperately need. If we could some how nab him or Hardy in the first round, and then go out and get a Lane or Pierre Paul in the 2nd round it would be a very productive draft.
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