Young backup LB's

[captain stone]

Who was the last patriot rookie LB drafted in the first day?

Who was the last patriot DL drafted below the first round who made any contribution as a rookie? Imagine if Marquise Hill was the highest DL drafted, what we'd be saying.

You want immediate impact? Draft high.

They haven't done that, they've taken chances filling the pipeline with developmental late-round or UDFA players. Klecko was the highest draftee LB in recent years.

I think this year, that changes.

You, too, are also correct, sir.

 

[Pats726]

While it may be true that 1 or 2 of the younger LBs may NOT make the team...I also think it possible that 1 or 2 could contriibute a lot more in teh coming years. Mays is smart and in time MIGHT be a possible at ILB...who knows how long that will take?? Alexander has been around a few years..I think getting ready to contribute. This is really a big year for him. I do agree that they will NOT stand pat with vets in that position...they will approach it in many ways. and competitive...

 

[kas]

Who was the last patriot rookie LB drafted in the first day?

Who was the last patriot DL drafted below the first round who made any contribution as a rookie? Imagine if Marquise Hill was the highest DL drafted, what we'd be saying.

You want immediate impact? Draft high.

They haven't done that, they've taken chances filling the pipeline with developmental late-round or UDFA players. Klecko was the highest draftee LB in recent years.

I think this year, that changes.

I agree, but I think there's another aspect that many here don't realize.

College ball isn't like the pros. If you have a stud, you ride him as much as you can to victory. This is a lot easier to do in NCAA than in the NFL. For example, this is why so few top RB's are good blockers coming out of college. If you have a stud back, he's more valuable to you carrying the rock, or releasing as a huge pass catching threat. Teams want to maximize the production they get from their best players.

Now, let's apply this to LB. If you have a guy with the size/speed/instincts at LB, you basically give him free reign in college. You tell him to get to the ball and make plays. And he does that, racks up incredible stats, and goes early in the draft. And this works for most NFL defenses, as these LB's get protected by their DL's who allow them to do basically the same thing: read-react-flow-tackle. That's how a guy like O'Dell Thurman comes in and lights it up right away for Cincinnati. Our D works differently though. We don't protect our LB's at all. In fact, we really expose them to bigger blockers and demand that they defeat the blocks themselves.

Basically what I'm saying is that the skills that propel LB's to day 1 of the draft are only a small part of the equation for our particular system. It seems that this hand play technique to protect yourself takes a long time to learn, and obviously requires a more aggressive and physical mindset than most teams need from their LB's. Actually, I think size is overrated in our LB's. The most important thing, IMO, is that BB wants LB's who can protect themselves while sifting through trash, disengage blockers and make the tackle. Neither Colvin nor Seau, for instance, are very big or bulky, but both use their hands very well to protect their feet and have no problem playing hardnosed physical football (i.e.: they won't run around blocks but rather try to run through them).

 

[mgteich]

A FOLLOW-UP QUESTION
Please assess the quality of linebacker player by the patriots over those same years. Has linebacker been a STRENGTH of the team, and of the system, or it has it been a weakness because we chose not to devote high draft choices to the position?

My point is that our FO has evaluated the various methods of securing players at various positions, and have concluded that 3-4 impacy OLB's are better developed from free agents and trades, or from DE's. 3-4 impact inside linebackers are especially difficult to develop, and they best come from veteran free agents, trades, and from converted OLB's.

A large percentage of posters here have each year have questioned this approach and cried and moaned for a 1st round, or at least a Round 2 linebacker. That has been true on this board at least since we all cheered when we traded up to draft Napolean Harris, only to find out that we had drafted a blocking TE.

Could this situation trun around this year? Sure! The FO could simply decide that they need a new strategy, that will even be more successful.

I really do understand that OCCASIONALLY there will be a high-profile linebacker who projects to work out so well that the patriots will try to draft him. Vilma was such a player. But this is rare, certainly not the dozen candidates in each draft that we posters put on our value lists.

My bottom line is that I'd rather have Alexander and Woods than any 2nd day draft choice, and I would rather have Hartwell and a corner rather than have Willis.

I am quite sure as the day approaches, we will all have our list of linebackers that we MUST have. We will have this year's Lawson, who we will project to be the defensive ROY, even when playing inside in the 3-4. And IMHO, we will again cry and moan when we pass Willis and don't draft a LB until the 6th round, if at all. Or just maybe there will be a special player that the FO goes after. Personally, I would shocked if that player is Willis (Carricker comes to mind).

mgteich, your point is well taken. The answer: no one in the last 10 years.

Again, the objective is to achieve a mix of contributing veterans and acquire a few rookies over the span of a few drafts to be groomed for contributing as veterans. The team has done it with Bruschi, Johnson, McGinest, and others. It must be done to hedge against injuries and the years when good LB FAs are either too expensive, too rare, or both. It's time to start now.

 

[kas]

A FOLLOW-UP QUESTION
Please assess the quality of linebacker player by the patriots over those same years. Has linebacker been a STRENGTH of the team, and of the system, or it has it been a weakness because we chose not to devote high draft choices to the position?

My point is that our FO has evaluated the various methods of securing players at various positions, and have concluded that 3-4 impacy OLB's are better developed from free agents and trades, or from DE's. 3-4 impact inside linebackers are especially difficult to develop, and they best come from veteran free agents, trades, and from converted OLB's.

A large percentage of posters here have each year have questioned this approach and cried and moaned for a 1st round, or at least a Round 2 linebacker. That has been true on this board at least since we all cheered when we traded up to draft Napolean Harris, only to find out that we had drafted a blocking TE.

Could this situation trun around this year? Sure! The FO could simply decide that they need a new strategy, that will even be more successful.

I really do understand that OCCASIONALLY there will be a high-profile linebacker who projects to work out so well that the patriots will try to draft him. Vilma was such a player. But this is rare, certainly not the dozen candidates in each draft that we posters put on our value lists.

My bottom line is that I'd rather have Alexander and Woods than any 2nd day draft choice, and I would rather have Hartwell and a corner rather than have Willis.

I am quite sure as the day approaches, we will all have our list of linebackers that we MUST have. We will have this year's Lawson, who we will project to be the defensive ROY, even when playing inside in the 3-4. And IMHO, we will again cry and moan when we pass Willis and don't draft a LB until the 6th round, if at all. Or just maybe there will be a special player that the FO goes after. Personally, I would shocked if that player is Willis (Carricker comes to mind).

Great post - you summed up my thoughts perfectly

 

[ClevTrev]

A FOLLOW-UP QUESTION
My point is that our FO has evaluated the various methods of securing players at various positions, and have concluded that 3-4 impacy OLB's are better developed from free agents and trades, or from DE's. 3-4 impact inside linebackers are especially difficult to develop, and they best come from veteran free agents, trades, and from converted OLB's.

The point is that the methods used by the team are dictated by what is available on the market (FA & Draft) from year to year. The Pats can be dynamic based on what the market can bear. This is sound strategy to use.

A large percentage of posters here have each year have questioned this approach and cried and moaned for a 1st round, or at least a Round 2 linebacker. That has been true on this board at least since we all cheered when we traded up to draft Napolean Harris, only to find out that we had drafted a blocking TE.

No requirement on early or late rounds here. This team has demonstrated it is very capable of picking talent out of any round. The desire is to see a few younger players being groomed for success as starters. It hedges against the team's unbalanced dependency on either FAs or the draft. It's called developing depth, and it's hard to do for this position. But it must be done. That's why Woods, Alexander, and Mays are presently on the roster.

Could this situation trun around this year? Sure! The FO could simply decide that they need a new strategy, that will even be more successful.

Again, the team's strategy is based on what the market can bear when team needs are considered. NE's strategy is not static. It changes from year to year, opportunity to opportunity. It must provide roster flexibility, and this became very evident during early 2005.

I really do understand that OCCASIONALLY there will be a high-profile linebacker who projects to work out so well that the patriots will try to draft him. Vilma was such a player. But this is rare, certainly not the dozen candidates in each draft that we posters put on our value lists.

My bottom line is that I'd rather have Alexander and Woods than any 2nd day draft choice, and I would rather have Hartwell and a corner rather than have Willis.

High profile is fine as long as it fills a need. But, be aware that this is not a lobby for a pure LB. As the team has demonstrated, there are other positions (like DE) that are well suited for LBs considering the way the team plays the 3-4.

As for Woods & Alexander, they are great value in that they were UDFAs. I really like Woods and believe he could start contributing as a platoon OLB this year.

However, if the Pats found a gem in rounds 4-7, who cares? Draft the player and start his development!!! He must still make the team in TC.

By the way, if a player who the team feels can contribute immediately as an LB is available in any round, I trust they'll make the right decision.

 

[TheSeymonsta]

This team has demonstrated it is very capable of picking talent out of any round.

I agree for the most part but not with LB's....

The only good LB's on the roster were either FA's or drafted a long time ago.

Woods, Mays, Alexander are scrubs until proven otherwise.

They need to infuse some TALENT for the LB position because Bruschi has 1 maybe 2 years left. Vrabel has 2 to 3 years left...

Scrubs from the 7th round will not replace those guys..

 

[ClevTrev]

I agree for the most part but not with LB's....

The only good LB's on the roster were either FA's or drafted a long time ago.

Woods, Mays, Alexander are scrubs until proven otherwise.

They need to infuse some TALENT for the LB position because Bruschi has 1 maybe 2 years left. Vrabel has 2 to 3 years left...

Scrubs from the 7th round will not replace those guys..

Maybe I'm not writing clearly enough. . .

Woods, Mays, and Alexander are young, developing players. I don't believe anyone is proposing that they'll make major contributions this year.

Just remember, it took Bruschi a few years before he became an effective LB on this team. A few years!!! And he was a DE in college.

Yes, we'd like an immediate infusion of talent that can contribute now. That's Thomas, maybe Seau, maybe . . .

BUT, the team can't rely solely on FAs. It tried in 2005 and struggled big time at the expense of its season record. The ideal is to have a two-pronged approach: develop a few select young players who can contribute on STs until they are ready to start at LB (the future Bruschis) & fill the gaps with FAs in the meantime. I believe that's what they've been trying to do.

 

[TheSeymonsta]

Woods, Mays, and Alexander are young, developing players. I don't believe anyone is proposing that they'll make major contributions this year.

.

My point is I dont think they ever will. They are not talented enough.

Just remember, it took Bruschi a few years before he became an effective LB on this team.
.

Bruschi was drafted in the 3rd round and led the nation in sacks. Talent was always there..

Yes, we'd like an immediate infusion of talent
.

I dont think we need talent that has to contribute now, I think we need talent that can develop next to and subbing for Bruschi and Vrabel.

The ideal is to have a two-pronged approach: develop a few select young players who can contribute on STs until they are ready to start at LB (the future Bruschis) & fill the gaps with FAs in the meantime.
.

I agree but that cant be accomplished with 7th round scrubs like Mays and Alexander and Woods

I believe that's what they've been trying to do.

I disagree and if they have been trying this is the one thing they have failed at miserably....

 

[ClevTrev]

I disagree and if they have been trying this is the one thing they have failed at miserably....

Precisely. It's based on what's there at the time, but even with talent, it still took Bruschi some years to solidify at LB.

I think we're in violent agreement: They've failed to obtain young, talented players who can step into the LB position in the near future. They need to continue to try and obtain young, talented players who can play LB in the 3-4.

This thread is great, and it's obvious that many on this board feel this is a position of great need for the team!

 

[captain stone]

My point is I dont think they ever will. They are not talented enough.




Bruschi was drafted in the 3rd round and led the nation in sacks. Talent was always there..



I dont think we need talent that has to contribute now, I think we need talent that can develop next to and subbing for Bruschi and Vrabel.



I agree but that cant be accomplished with 7th round scrubs like Mays and Alexander and Woods



I disagree and if they have been trying this is the one thing they have failed at miserably....

I agree with every word that you wrote.

Mays and Alexander are simply not good enough. Never have been, never will be. We need better. We deserve better. At most, only one of Izzo, Mays and Alexander should be on the 53 next season. At most.

 

[TheSeymonsta]

I think we're in violent agreement: !

Yes..

I thought you were saying we could get by with picking LB's in the 7th round...

I also agree we need some youth in the Secondary....

My Ideal picks in the first would be

Polusny LB (Penn State)
Michael Griffin S or Nelson S

 

[AzPatsFan]

The last two LBs that the Patriots drafted on the first day were Tedy #3 '96; and Katzenmoyer #1 '98. Katz was an aceptable pro not a star whose career was cut short by injury. Tedy was a DL/OLB/ILB conversion that took 3+ years. Katz palyed his rookie year.

If you draft talent it takes time but not als long or actually never as in most late picks.

 

[ClevTrev]

The last two LBs that the Patriots drafted on the first day were Tedy #3 '96; and Katzenmoyer #1 '98. Katz was an aceptable pro not a star whose career was cut short by injury. Tedy was a DL/OLB/ILB conversion that took 3+ years. Katz palyed his rookie year.

If you draft talent it takes time but not als long or actually never as in most late picks.

Excellent point. I'd add, if you draft talent that fills a need and a way of playing . . .

 

[salty]

Excellent thread. Let me ask a couple of questions:

1) A lot of you seem down on Alexander, but why? I thought he played very well in the AFC Championship game, especially given that it was his first ever career start. Yes, he was caught out of position a few times, and got burned by Dallas Clark a few times, but that is not at all surprising for a guy that was basically thrown into the fire. I think those areas can be improved upon with actual playing experience, and given how well he did otherwise, I think he is a promising player.

2) What do people think of the Patriots potentially adding Donnie Edwards? He was talked about a lot on this board before free agency began, but I haven't seen his name hardly at all since. I was initially opposed to the thought, because I thought we really needed an every down linebacker. Edwards would not be ideal for that in the Patriots system because he is qutie small for an ILB. However, we have added the every down linebacker we needed in A.D. I think Edwards could be a great addition as a third down ILB to replace Bruschi, and he could step in as a decent (though not ideal) starter in the event of an injury. I guess it all comes down to price, but it seems to me that he would be a solid veteran addition for us.

Thoughts?

 

[cstjohn17]

Excellent thread. Let me ask a couple of questions:

1) A lot of you seem down on Alexander, but why? I thought he played very well in the AFC Championship game, especially given that it was his first ever career start. Yes, he was caught out of position a few times, and got burned by Dallas Clark a few times, but that is not at all surprising for a guy that was basically thrown into the fire. I think those areas can be improved upon with actual playing experience, and given how well he did otherwise, I think he is a promising player.

2) What do people think of the Patriots potentially adding Donnie Edwards? He was talked about a lot on this board before free agency began, but I haven't seen his name hardly at all since. I was initially opposed to the thought, because I thought we really needed an every down linebacker. Edwards would not be ideal for that in the Patriots system because he is qutie small for an ILB. However, we have added the every down linebacker we needed in A.D. I think Edwards could be a great addition as a third down ILB to replace Bruschi, and he could step in as a decent (though not ideal) starter in the event of an injury. I guess it all comes down to price, but it seems to me that he would be a solid veteran addition for us.

Thoughts?

It is not so much that I am down on Alexander it is just that I think his top end potential is limited to special teams and the odd snaps as a coverage LB. He doesn't fill the open roster spot at starting ILB.

I have no problem with Edwards, he is light but wouldn't be expected to play all 3 downs unless injuries occur. He may be a little pricey for someone who gets action mostly on 3rd downs. It should be noted that any snaps Edwards gets would takes snaps away from from Alexander. Since they both are slotted as 3rd down pass coverage type players. There may be more value in keeping Alexander in that role as opposed to signning Edwards, even though Edwards has a lot more viability as a potential starter is a far superior player to Alexander.

Ideally I think the team is better with Bruschi at WILB and a veteran starter at SILB. Vrabel would be the first sub at WILB and our hope is that a Day 1 draft pick backs up the TBD vet. Alexander would be the 5th option at LB and used as a pass coverage specialist.

 

[salty]

Ideally I think the team is better with Bruschi at WILB and a veteran starter at SILB. Vrabel would be the first sub at WILB and our hope is that a Day 1 draft pick backs up the TBD vet. Alexander would be the 5th option at LB and used as a pass coverage specialist.

I just don't see what veteran we are going to get to come in and play inside linebacker. Some talk about Junior Seau, but for christ's sake, the guy is going to be 39 years old! There is no way he makes it through a full season as anything but a situational player. He'd be great for goal line or short yardage scenarios, but thats it. As for other free agents, I don't think there are any out there that can step in and be a quality starter. So, for better or worse, I see us going with Colvin/A.D. outside and Bruschi/Vrabel inside. My concern at this point is adding players for a rotation.

 

[mgteich]

I would sign Hartwell, Seau and Gardner

I would also keep Alexander and Woods and hope for improvement.

I just don't see what veteran we are going to get to come in and play inside linebacker. Some talk about Junior Seau, but for christ's sake, the guy is going to be 39 years old! There is no way he makes it through a full season as anything but a situational player. He'd be great for goal line or short yardage scenarios, but thats it. As for other free agents, I don't think there are any out there that can step in and be a quality starter. So, for better or worse, I see us going with Colvin/A.D. outside and Bruschi/Vrabel inside. My concern at this point is adding players for a rotation.

 

[TheSeymonsta]

I think Edwards is our best option to help the ILB position for THIS year.

I am not down on Alexander but as noted above his potential for Greatness is not there.

 

[Pats726]

This will be an important year for the young backup LBS
.Woods...Mays..they will need to show a bit of something if they have a futire beyond ST..This in learning about the position just as much as playing...if at all. One or the other MAY have a future there..I would say maybe more with Woods on the outside as opposed to Mays..but this will be found out over the next months. As far as Alexander goes, this will be his 4th year with the team...adn I really do NOT think they would keep him around IF they did not think he had a future here beyond STs. I would look for him to play more positionally this year...but I think he has a greater shot at it than most and I believe the past think that as well as they have invested a LOT of time with him.
And yes, this is a most interesting thread...!!