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You guys are being too hard on your defense

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by coltsfan, Dec 4, 2009.

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  1. coltsfan

    coltsfan On the Game Day Roster

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    I keep reading across the nation and on here that your defense sucks. That you should have kept Seymour, Vrabel, etc. That this is the worst Pats team of the decade. etc.

    I think you guys are overreacting based on one game against a great team, and not acknowledging the fact that the Saints are quite possibly the most balanced offense you faced this decade, and that they are a talented team with a great coaching staff. For example, the Saints have a power running game that the Colts never have had. And the Greatest Show on Turf didn't have the power running game the Saints have either.

    That's something that hasn't been acknowledged. The Pats are able to play solely the pass against the Colts and the Greatest Show on Turf. A team that runs and passes very well is harder to defend. Once Pierre Thomas broke that long run due to Carl Nicks overpowering Wilfork, the floodgates opened bc the Pats had to worry about two dimensions.

    So I have my doubts that even the Pats defense of 5 years ago would have held the Saints under 28 points. Look at what they have done in all of their home games this year, they've basically went right through every defense they faced besides Rex Ryan's blitzes.

    As for your offense. We'll see if teams are smart enough to duplicate Gregg Williams' plan. It took 11 games before a coordinator was smart enough to come up with such a scheme. Based on watching coordinators across the league come up with lame schemes against the Colts and Pats every week, I have my doubts that other teams will be smart enough to do what Williams did.

    I'm just pretty familiar with the Colts, Saints, and Pats; so felt I could give some perspective. I live in NO, so I've seen every Saints game. I have taped and rewatched both your games against the Colts and the Saints. So I think I'm pretty familiar with your personnel.

    I still think the Pats have a solid young defense. Your DL is set if you keep Wilfork. Your CBs are adequate IMO if you re-sign Bodden. IMO Guyton is the definition of mediocrity and needs to be replaced. He's a JAG. If you add an ILB and OLB in the draft, you'll be set. If I'm BB, I find a way to make some trades and come out of the draft with a combination like Brandon Spikes at ILB and Eric Norwood at OLB. Norwood in particular would be a great pick.

    I guess my point is, you won't face an offense like the Saints in the AFC. Or the Vikings, for that matter. The Chargers are the closest, but as good as Rivers is, he's not Brees. And the Chargers haven't shown they can run the ball as well as the Saints or Vikes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2009
  2. Feep50

    Feep50 Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    We have a defense that plays on Sundays? Who knew!!:cool:
     
  3. Ryan

    Ryan Guest

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    Take away the Colts & Saints games, and the D has been very good. Those 2 games have tarnished the D in a lot of people's eyes. They're still one of the best scoring D's in the league though, even with those 2 games factored in. I just hope that once the playoffs roll around, they'll be able to hold the better offenses under control.
     
  4. SVN

    SVN Hall of Fame Poster

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    the saints game didnt make feelgood about the D but seeing broken coverages and shoddy tackling it was hard to judge how bad they were. if the saints and driven 70-80 yards everytime converting a few 3rd downs in 8-9 plays would that reflected a worse image of the D ? Heck 2 TD's came on the first play i think on 1 blown coverage and 1 unbelievable throw. If they fix their communication and are disciplined and above all TACKLE , they can hang on for some.
    alternatively they need a big time pass rush which i dont see happening with this team unless bb decides to think of soemthing diff like letting AD play exclusively as a passrusher on 3 downs.
     
  5. bostonia3333

    bostonia3333 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Saints have a decent shot of going 19-0. I have no problem getting lit up by that offense. The Colts and Vikings would get shredded by that team in that dome. Pats talent on defense is much better than last year's unit. However, the playcalling is too passive to be able to unveil the talent that exists.
     
  6. MassPats38

    MassPats38 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thanks, coltsfan, although it is something of a sad statement on the fandom when a fan of a rival team feels the need to stage an intervention based on the overwhelming negativity of the fans here.

    In my humble opinion, the team has talent but it came out flat after the loss to the Colts and the win over the Jets, two teams the Pats view as huge rivals. If the Pats stepped out on the field against the Colts offense in that mindset, I expect the Colts would have layed a smackdown on the Pats in Indy. As the 75 yard TD was the equivalent of the defense letting Reggie Wayne run unchecked through the secondary, I am more inclined to call it playing without intensity or emotion. Add to that drops and missed blocks and I just get the sense the Pats were not up for that game. Going 1/2 speed against the Saints will get you killed, and that is exactly how that game played out.

    The Saints are a great team this year, but not an unstoppable one. I wish Indy had them on the schedule as I would love to see how that game turns out - I suspect Indy can beat them. If Dallas plays well on offense and avoids its characteristics blunders on defense, it may be able to take down the Saints. With as bad as the Pats played, and I cannot attribute that to the Saints defense rather than implosion, it is hard to assess how good the Saints really are.

    What that game did make me realize is how much I am looking forward to the playoffs, both AFC and NFC, as it appears for the first time in a long time you may have a playoff field with all teams capable of running the table. Hopefully, teams get healthy and make every game a game to watch.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2009
  7. Mack Herron

    Mack Herron In the Starting Line-Up

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    To date, the Saints are the best in the NFL this year. And the Pats D has limitations, especially in the red zone and rushing the passer. But the meltdown on Mon. night with the blown coverages and shoddy tackling is uncharacteristic and made the Saints look better than they are. The Pats defense isnot that bad, and that is why it was so frustrating to see them take a night off on MNF against the best team in the NFL. I hope we play them again.
     
  8. BlitzFritz

    BlitzFritz Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    some really good points here. thanks
     
  9. coltsfan

    coltsfan On the Game Day Roster

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    I don't see that as a solution. The only reason AD got a sack is he was being blocked by David Thomas, and Thomas came off the ball late anyway.

    I agree with Belichick that Burgess and TBC are better rushers than Thomas. Burgess had some good rushes against the Colts.
     
  10. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The defense can't get consistent pressure on opposing quarterbacks. It can't defend against the pass unless the safeties are playing lights out. It is substandard against the run.

    It's quite good at celebrating plays, though.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2009
  11. coltsfan

    coltsfan On the Game Day Roster

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    I think both of those defenses match up better bc of Freeney/Mathis along with the Colts speed in the back 7, and Jared Allen.

    But yes, the Saints are a great team that certainly is better than the Colts right now.

    The Pats' D matches up better against some offenses than the Colts' D, but their speed matches up better against the Saints' O IMO.

    The Saints and Vikings are the two best teams though. The Vikings have the best talent in the NFL IMO, but the Saints have a great combination of talent and top coaching on both sides of the ball.
     
  12. sieglo

    sieglo In the Starting Line-Up

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    Didn't the Greatest Show on Turf have Marshall Faulk? Seems like a pretty decent running game to me.
     
  13. coltsfan

    coltsfan On the Game Day Roster

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    It's not substandard against the run with Warren and Green back. They just ran up against a team that runs the ball very well in the Saints that have the best guard combination in the league.

    And noone is as good at celebrating plays as the Houston Texans! :D
     
  14. coltsfan

    coltsfan On the Game Day Roster

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    Yes, but did they even attempt to rush the ball much of the time?
     
  15. Deus Irae

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    You're being far too kind. This defense is clearly substandard against the run. It's current ranking shows that.

    As for the celebrating, that was just a dig at some people here who used to complain when certain players would celebrate plays. They acted as if that was the end of the world. This season, there hasn't been a peep out of those people.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2009
  16. SVN

    SVN Hall of Fame Poster

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    well according to reiss, we played 5-6 dbs most of the game so they were inviting the saints to run which is why it looks worse that we still couldnt defend the pass
     
  17. MassPats38

    MassPats38 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    He had 1350+ yds rushing/year from 1999 - 2001, so he wasn't too shabby. The Rams were 5th in the NFL rushing in 2001.
     
  18. coltsfan

    coltsfan On the Game Day Roster

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    But haven't Warren and Green missed multiple games? You were substandard stopping the run in the 4-3 when Wright was a starter at DT bc Wright doesn't play the run well.

    But a 3-4 with Warren and Green at the ends, I see as a good run stopping unit. Even though I don't like Guyton.

    From the games I saw (Denver, Indy, some games last year), Wright has been the problem against the run. He rushes the passer well, but plays too high against the run.

    Just my view. If you play the 3-4 against Miami, I think you'll control their offense.
     
  19. Deus Irae

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    Green's been a nonentity even in games where he plays. Warren only missed one game. Their absence hasn't been the problem.
     
  20. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What a kind, balanced, and sensible email! Thank you. Clearly it wasn't written by a Patriot's fan.

    I'm not terribly discouraged about our defenses' performance against the Saints, except for one area, which I'll touch on later.

    We have a very young but talented defense. They got a bit shell-shocked by the Saints blitzkrieg, and I don't think we were prepared for the team speed showed by the Saints on both sides of the ball. A lot of the missed tackles had something to do with that. Clearly some of the young secondary players got juked out by Brees' fakes. And, as you say, the Saints are one of the most balanced and talented offenses in the past 10 years - and you guys should know, having put together many of the best offenses this decade.

    I think we will learn from this and develop, and if we somehow get to the SB and see the Saints (something I'm not particularly optimistic about right now; I think you guys have a better chance) we'll be a bit more prepared for the speed. But, as you say, stopping the Saints offense would be a challenge no matter what.

    The area that I'm most concerned about is our DL and our lack of a pass rush. We haven't been particularly good against the run this season, and you guys ran pretty well against us in the 4th quarter, as did the Saints. And we just can't beat Brees, Manning, Rivers, Palmer, Favre or Rothlisberger in the playoffs if we can't get any pressure on them. Our lack of a pass rush killed us against you guys in the 4th quarter at Indy, and it killed us all game against Brees.

    I think our most talented pass rushers are not on our DL or our DE/OLBs. We need to figure out how to get pressure with Chung, McGowan, Meriweather, Butler, Mayo and Guyton. They're much faster and more athletic than our front line guys, and have showed some nice blitzing ability.

    Thanks for the kind words of wisdom. Many on this board went from "we have a top 5 defense" to "our defense sucks" in one game, and that's clearly an overreaction. I'm very optimistic for the future. But we need to be able to get pressure. I don't think you can win in today's NFL without pressure on the QB.
     
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