You fools want to write off Chad Jackson

[mgteich]

We have three players who should have 90% of the TD's and critical reps from the wide receiver corps, AS RECEIVERS. Moss and Stallworth are the outside receivers (the #1 and #2) and Welker is the slot receiver (the #3). Welker could be out there with Moss, and no Stallworth, at times.

If I KNEW there wouldn't be any injuries in the game, I would only activate three wide receivers. We also have TE's and running backs who will make many catches.

As a practical matter, I expect four wide receivers to be active. with the #4 being a gunner or a returner. Activating five receivers makes little sense to me.

So where is Jackson in all of this. Well, if he's ready to return kicks on Day One, we could have him active, and have the rest cut or on the bench. I just don't see it. I'd prefer to have Washington active as a gunner, but am fine with Caldwell.

MY BOTTOM LINE
My priorities at wide receivers
1) Put our best wideouts and slot receiver on the field as much as possible. That's Moss, Stallworth and Wekler.
2) The #4 receiver needs to be flexible, and be able to play for a few games if anyone is injured. This player could be INACTIVE unless there are injuries. I see Caldwell in this role.
3) The #5 receiver will be active in each game, as a STer. He could be a gunner or returner. Washington and Jackson could duke it out for this
position, if Jackson is healthy. My pick is Washington; others prefer Gaffney. Well, that's what camp and the pre-season will decide.
4) If we carry six receivers on Day One, I'd view it as a wasted roster spot. We'd almost have two receivers inactive. I'd much rather have Jackson on PUP.
5) I expect to see many, many catches from the tight ends and running backs. Even Mills could be a productive receiver, although Maroney is more likely to be #4, as is Watson.
6) My list of the six top receivers are Moss, Welker, Stallworth, Maroney, Faulk and Kyle Brady, although Watson could certainly edge out Brady. My next two are Watson and Thomas.
7) There just aren't a lot of receptions left for the likes of Evans, Mills, Washington, Jackson, Caldwell, Gaffney and Brown. In the end, we may be asking who among these is the #8 or #9 receiver, #8 if one of these has more than one of the TE's.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

But what about Bam?

Oh, sweet Heavens, what about Bam?

Fear not, he's eligible as a third year Practice Squad player. I still look to how Bam was used in the Jacksonville game where he was one of two WRs to line up at RB in the 5 WR offense - the other was Troy Brown - this speaks to how capable Bam is of doing more than the minimum.

 

[patsox23]

My list of the six top receivers are Moss, Welker, Stallworth, Maroney, Faulk and Kyle Brady, although Watson could certainly edge out Brady.

This is where you lost me. Watson will SURELY edge out Brady - as a pass-catcher - and Thomas is likely to, as well. While I Realize Brady has caught balls in the past, and got lots of looks in T.C. (thanks to Thomas being sidelined), it's clear to most, I think, that Brady was brought in for his blocking prowess. This is not to say he won't have his share of receptions, but I'd be pretty surprised if he out-produced other TEs whose skill-sets are more geared toward receiving.

 

[mgteich]

Pehaps we disagree; perhaps it is semantics.

I believe that we are paying Kyle Brady $5.3M over two years ($3.2 this eyar and $2.1M next) to be a major red zone and short yardage threat. He is the replacment for Graham. We all argued whether Watson or Graham was the #1 TE. We can have the argument again. Personally, I believe that it is likely that Brady will ahve more catches than Watson.

Watson had so many receptions last year because he was playing wide receiver. With at least three better wide receivers, Watson will not be needed much as a wide receiver. He will not be needed much over the middle; Welker is the slot receiver. HOWEVER, there will be a place for a blocking TE, who can make catches over the middle. Who would you rather have in that role? Watson or Brady?

This is where you lost me. Watson will SURELY edge out Brady - as a pass-catcher - and Thomas is likely to, as well. While I Realize Brady has caught balls in the past, and got lots of looks in T.C. (thanks to Thomas being sidelined), it's clear to most, I think, that Brady was brought in for his blocking prowess. This is not to say he won't have his share of receptions, but I'd be pretty surprised if he out-produced other TEs whose skill-sets are more geared toward receiving.

 

[cloud34]

From what I hear, with this injury, Chad may be running at full speed in training camp. but will still be months away from pushing off of that leg to make cuts (ie. run routes). Eventually, his knee will be fully healed. I am more concerned with the other issues, the immaturity, the dedication, the work ethic. Will this kid ever "get it"? I need to see improvements in those areas before I make any further judgments.

 

[patfanken]

Well since there is nothing ELSE to talk about....

You can count me in as a BIG Jackson supporter. You have to concider his tools and his background when concidering him long term. He not only is very young, he comes from a very bad passing attack. So he came to the Pats with first round skills and a 7th round knowledge of the Passing game. He progress last year was injury prone and mentally lacking. We all knew this going in. He own HS coach mentioned it. He doesn't take bad times well....initially. IF he were healthy this off season, we'd have one less FA WR on this team...but he wasn't....and it might be a good thing long term, for Jackson.

An ACL is a serious injury. I don't want to see Jackson wind up like Brian Finnernan who came back too quickly from his ACL. Here's what I hope. Jackson starts the season on the PUP and one of 2 things happen. By midseason there will be an injury and he comes off the PUP to have a quietly productive season putting up numbers that are just a bit better than the ones he put up last season, except this season he shows more progress as a route runner and professional attitude.

Or no one gets hurt and he's put on the IR when the decision has to be made about his status. Either way I see Jackson as a key part of the Pats WR corps in 2008. I don't think the Pats will keep BOTH Moss and Stallworth for 2008. Assuming they BOTH have a modicum of success, I can't see the Pats being willing to pay them BOTH the market price of a #1 WR.

While I would prefer Stallworth long term for this team, I think HE will be the guy who will cost the most. Interestingly, I think it will be Moss who will be willing to stay for the reasonable money at this stage of his career. Then in 2008 we will have have Jackson and Moss on the outside, Welker in the slot. One of Gaffney and Caldwell as an excellent #4 and some 3rd round 2007 draft pick filling out the roster.

As to this year, assuming Brown comes back as advertised, I think the Pats will keep 6 WRs. Who stays will depend more on special teams play than WR play. Welker, Moss, Stallworth and Caldwell are the Top 4 IMHO. The other 2 will be determined by who is the most versitile. Regardless of who is ultimately kept this is going to be THE most talented WR corps the Pats have ever assembled.

 

[VJCPatriot]

6) My list of the six top receivers are Moss, Welker, Stallworth, Maroney, Faulk and Kyle Brady, although Watson could certainly edge out Brady. My next two are Watson and Thomas.

I believe that Watson will easily have double the catches that K. Brady does.
Watson has the biggest mismatch potential of any of our nonwideouts.
K. Brady is almost like another tackle in terms of blocking as a TE but he's not a freak like Watson. Not even close.
I think he will get opportunities in short yardage and red zone situations though.
Looking at K. Brady's career stats, I see no reason to expect him to break 30 receptions this year, especially as the secondary tight end along with the expected increase in the use of the 3 WR set.

 

[PatsSteve1]

The current WR's under contract on the roster are:

WR - Randy Moss
WR - Donte' Stallworth
WR - Wes Welker
WR - Reche Caldwell
WR - Chad Jackson
WR - Jabar Gaffney
WR - Kelley Washington
WR - Kelvin Kight
WR - Bam Childress
WR - Jonathan Smith

If you add Troy Brown and they are all healthy for the start of the season except Jackson(pup?) and figuring it likely Kight, Smith and Childress don't make the 53 man roster, as Tony Soprano would say, someone's got to
go - That'd be 7 WR's and they aren't keeping 7 WR's. I suspect that if that happened, they had 7 healthy WR's say Aug 31st, at least 1 gets traded to a team that needs WR's or lost 1 in TC. Maybe 2 of them. I'm not saying thier gonna get any high pick, but Moss has a 1 year deal and Stallworth and Washington have good deals that a team can end after 1 year. Welker probably has the least tradeable deal.

 

[PonyExpress]

I could see K. Brady making a goal line catch in a key spot, a la Russ Hochstein, when we least expect it. Any greater contribution by K. Brady to the passing game seems like wishful thinking from a 290 lb 35 year old who hasn't caught more than 20 passes since 2003.

My receiving corps breakdown would be...

Moss 60 catches 1000 yards 8 TDs
Stallworth 50 catches 750 yards 5 TDs
Welker 45 catches 500 yards 4 TDs
Maroney 35 catches 300 yards 3 TDs
Watson 25 catches 350 yards 3 TDs
Thomas 25 catches 300 yards 2 TDs
Faulk 25 catches 150 yards 1 TDs
Caldwell 20 catches 250 yards 1 TD
Morris 15 catches 100 yards 1 TD
Gaffney 15 catches 200 yards 0 TD
Jackson 10 catches 150 yards 1 TD
Brady 5 catches 50 yards 1 TD

Total: 330 completions 4100 yards 30 TDs

The major difference in this passing offense vs. years past will be its efficiency. IOW, I expect Tom Brady to throw for a 65% completion rate.

 

[Pats726]

The current WR's under contract on the roster are:

WR - Randy Moss
WR - Donte' Stallworth
WR - Wes Welker
WR - Reche Caldwell
WR - Chad Jackson
WR - Jabar Gaffney
WR - Kelley Washington
WR - Kelvin Kight
WR - Bam Childress
WR - Jonathan Smith

Actually there are two more than that....Chris Dunlop from Georgia Tech and CJ Jones from Iowa.....

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Kyle Brady may be in the 50 yard range (probably more), but I'd bump him to 3-4 TDs. Big red zone target. Maroney isn't Dillon in the red zone. Do the math -- that (and blocking) are what he's on board for. Depending a lot on desire, looks, intangibles, etc., I could see Stallworth and Moss flip flopping. I think what you have thrown out there is a pretty decent synopsis otherwise though. Except Kevin Kight is a lock for 14 TDs, 1300 yards. JUST KIDDING.

PFnV

 

[spacecrime]

-Until Chad proves he can stay healthy (after last season's hamstring injury/ies),

-If you expect Chad to surpass Moss, Stallworth, Welker, Caldwell, Gaffney, Washington, and possibly Brown on the depth chart - with a torn ACL - you're dreaming.

Stallworth and Kelly have deals likely to end after this year. Caldwell and Gaffney and Moss are signed only for this year. Brown isn't even signed.

Jackson and Welker are the only ones sure to be on the team in 2008, and if BB thinks Jackson is to play a part in 2008, why would he stick the guy on IR if he isn't fully hurt? That would be like the stupid Chargers playing Drew Brees a couple years ago in the last game of the season when they should have been giving Rivers some reps. Jackson needs to get into the flow of some games, and it will be better to do it when the team is relying on him.

It all depends on Jackson's injury. If he is able to play, don't look for him to be PUPped or IRed just because we have a lot of receivers.

And you are 100% wrong talking about he must prove he can stay healthy. That is silly fan-speak and makes no sense. All the team cares about is: Is he healthy now. They are not going to IR him because he was hurt last year.

 

[Pats726]

Stallworth and Kelly have deals likely to end after this year. Caldwell and Gaffney and Moss are signed only for this year. Brown isn't even signed.

Jackson and Welker are the only ones sure to be on the team in 2008, and if BB thinks Jackson is to play a part in 2008, why would he stick the guy on IR if he isn't fully hurt? That would be like the stupid Chargers playing Drew Brees a couple years ago in the last game of the season when they should have been giving Rivers some reps. Jackson needs to get into the flow of some games, and it will be better to do it when the team is relying on him.

It all depends on Jackson's injury. If he is able to play, don't look for him to be PUPped or IRed just because we have a lot of receivers.

And you are 100% wrong talking about he must prove he can stay healthy. That is silly fan-speak and makes no sense. All the team cares about is: Is he healthy now. They are not going to IR him because he was hurt last year.

But he was injured last year..and I do NOT think they wish to rush him back from an injury THIS year..Do you not think that one of the reasons they have many WRs in camp is because they are NOT counting on him? There is NO reason to rush him back..period. Which is why I think he'll be PUPed. THAT way in week 6 or 7, they can make a decision based on how he is rehabbing an dwhat the situation at wideout is.

 

[pats1]

Stallworth and Kelly have deals likely to end after this year. Caldwell and Gaffney and Moss are signed only for this year. Brown isn't even signed.

Exactly my point. All of the above will be here this year, but not likely next. Out of those two years, which is more likely for Jackson to make an impact during?

Jackson and Welker are the only ones sure to be on the team in 2008, and if BB thinks Jackson is to play a part in 2008, why would he stick the guy on IR if he isn't fully hurt?

Where else will BB put him? The #7 WR spot? It doesn't exist. If everything is running full throttle at WR with the 5-6 they'll have sans Jackson, there's no reason to have Jackson on the 53, be inactive, and have a roster spot be wasted. It would be most convenient just to stash him on the IR.

That would be like the stupid Chargers playing Drew Brees a couple years ago in the last game of the season when they should have been giving Rivers some reps. Jackson needs to get into the flow of some games, and it will be better to do it when the team is relying on him.

That was 2005, when the Chargers were out of playoff contention. The Pats will be in playoff contention, so there's no reason to sit Moss or Stallworth and start Jackson just to give him reps. 2008 and his contract year, 2009, will be his time to shine.

It all depends on Jackson's injury. If he is able to play, don't look for him to be PUPped or IRed just because we have a lot of receivers.

What's the reasoning behind that? BB will give the job to the best 5-6 WRs he has, and will use any means he has to keep the leftovers around. If Jackson is outside of that 5-6 range, the IR will be a good option.

But the key is, the PUP will cease to become an option the SECOND Jackson steps on that practice field July 27. So there's no way to test the waters with Jackson before deciding where to put him. If he steps on that field to compete and "get reps," then it's 53, IR, or bust.

BB will keep that PUP option open as long as he possibly can. That's the nature of the beast. His July and August are pretty much already in the books - he'll be placed on the preseason/PUP (like last year), will not practice at all, will by default fall behind his competition, and then will be judged late in the preseason. If BB doesn't like what he sees from the rest of the WRs (unlikely), then he'll make a move and have Jackson fill the hole to start the season. If BB likes what he sees, then he'll put Jackson on the reserve/PUP and then re-access come weeks 6-9. If there isn't a spot then, the IR will be his new home until 2008.

His health is barely the issue by now.

And you are 100% wrong talking about he must prove he can stay healthy. That is silly fan-speak and makes no sense. All the team cares about is: Is he healthy now. They are not going to IR him because he was hurt last year.

The IR is much more than a place for injured players.

 

[Water Boy]

Write it down 62 catches 745 and 8 touchdowns.

Care to wager?

Chad 'Bethel' Jackson is a B U S T.

 

[zippo59]

Care to wager?

Chad 'Bethel' Jackson is a B U S T.

This is just stupid.

 

[sebman2112]

While I don't agree with some of what the original poster has said I will say that the posters who go around calling Jackson a "bust" and write him off as a wasted pick annoy the piss out of me.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I'm inclined to think there's a great deal of over-analyzing going on. Chad's development as a player requires he (1) be healthy, and (2) practice with the team.

PUP and IR both are options related to his health, but neither do much to develop him as a player. For those looking to see Chad breakout in 2008, any inclination to see him on either PUP or IR at the start of the season is self defeating. They are only valid if his rehab status delays his availability past the point where he will be unable to train for the start of the season.

 

[Pats726]

I'm inclined to think there's a great deal of over-analyzing going on. Chad's development as a player requires he (1) be healthy, and (2) practice with the team.

PUP and IR both are options related to his health, but neither do much to develop him as a player. For those looking to see Chad breakout in 2008, any inclination to see him on either PUP or IR at the start of the season is self defeating. They are only valid if his rehab status delays his availability past the point where he will be unable to train for the start of the season.

There is also a 3rd part of that..and that is 3) that he has the corret attitude to understand and grasps the playbook and the concepts of what it takes to be a receiver etc etc. There has been some talk of his maturing and that he is finally "getting it" and that is good news.
IR might not help his development..but I think it's fairly obvious that PUP is a large possibiulity. Frankly, given his injury in January, I think the team may have thought he would not be available....possibly the reason why they have so many receivers signed. I think PUP would be the best given his injury so that 6-7 weeks into the season his situation can be looked at again. If his rehab is working he MAY be ready to get onto the field; he may not and the possibility of IR is there for that. PUP to start this year really has little if anything to do with the 08 season. IR though would, but that would be a decision made more towards mid-season.
I just do not think they will take a chance and get him into training camp prematurely given the logjam at wide receiver. That doesn't make any sense at all when they can be more careful with him, take their time and PUP him. He may be able to run, but it will take time for running routes and cutting.
This in no way at all is writing him off, in fact it is more being sure that he is not reinjured, rushing him into play when he is not 100% ready.

 

[Water Boy]

This is just stupid.

I'm disappointed w/ Jackson's development. I understand he's been hurt, but despite the injury his development has been painfully slow. The fact that he couldn't get more reps later in the season show's he doesn't have what it takes between the ears to pick up the system. I'm not niave enough to think there isn't a rookie learning curve, but Jackson has demonstrated that he is in the lowest percentile when it comes to football smarts.

I hope he succeeds and I am proven wrong, but for a high second rounder in a deep draft he has clearly not lived up to expectations.