Yes, even Mike Reiss can't defend or explain BB's draft reaches

[RayClay]

Mike Mayock explains

91 Overall Pick In The 2013 NFL Draft the New England Patriots Select Duron Harmon - YouTube

 

[patriotsdynasty12189]

This is the same Mike Reiss who has never gotten a single pick by the Patriots correct. The same Mike Reiss who has said, time and again, that he's horrible at talent evaluation when it comes to the Patriots. The same Mike Reiss who had Matt Cassel being cut in favor of Matt Gutierrez...

It's not Mike Reiss' job to "defend or explaind BB's draft" decisions. So, what was your point again?

To back Reiss on that everyone wanted Cassel cut after the 08 pre-season....

 

[belichick010405]

To back Reiss on that everyone wanted Cassel cut after the 08 pre-season....

Everyone? Sorry - but I didn't want him cut just like I didn't want Mallet to be dealt for picks this year.

 

[Ring 6]

Last year the week of the draft, many folks here were disappointed in the Tavon Wilson pick and delighted with the Dennard pick. They felt Wilson was a big reach and Dennard a great value.

I think at the end of the year, the majority view proved more accurate. Wilson played himself onto the bench, and Dennard played himself onto the field.

This site is not peopled with idiots. A number of folks pay attention.

For every "most wins in the NFL" argument the "worst passing defense in the NFL" can be trotted out. The repeated frustration is that Belichick the coach and Brady the QB make up for some GM/personnel mistakes. But for those, the "most wins" might be "most trophies."

I don't recall any of the draft-compulsives calling out Harmon before this week. And these guys go three and four hundred players deep.

I echo the comments, such as mgteich's, that if you can't offer criticism, what's a place like this for anyway?

By the same token if you cant express disagreement with opinions floated, what is the purpose of this place?


I just find it silly that the draft is viewed as a the group of guys who can't get a job drafting try to predict what the guys who do have a job drafting will do, and when they guess wrong it becomes praise or criticism of the guy who drafted.

In other words:
Prediction Joe Blow will go in the 5th round. He goes in the 3rd. Reality is he was a 3rd round draft pick, fallacy is the guess that he was a 5th rounder is the truth and where he was chosen is the stab in the dark.
Reverse it with a guy predicted to go in the 3rd who doesn't get drafted until the 5th. No team wanted him until the 5th but he is considered a steal because the guesser thought they would want him.

 

[Ring 6]

To back Reiss on that everyone wanted Cassel cut after the 08 pre-season....

Belichick didnt, and isnt that the point of this thread?

 

[ctpatsfan77]

It absolutely had to do with talent. That's why they traded for Talib. If the talent was there then they never would have given up a 4th rounder for less than a full season of a player.

If they felt it was the best use of that pick, sure they would.

 

[Joker]

I don't recall any of the draft-compulsives calling out Harmon before this week. And these guys go three and four hundred players deep.

QUOTE]

A quick search of Patsfan shows that the first time Harmon's name appeared on this site was..........just after he was picked

bullspit!!! I first mentioned Harmon THREE years ago...pay attention....

Old 10-25-2011, 05:01 AM #317
Joker
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Default Re: Patriots to look at Angie Harmon

The Pats just dropped a WR from their practice squad roster....making room for....Angie Harmon???

 

[MTM558]

I never call any player drafted a reach. Each team has their own draft board and discussions about who they will select next. If your best guy is there for the taking, chances are you take him. It's not like Bill throws darts at a wall and picks who he hits.

 

[Salva135]

First, it wasn't a demotion. Whether if fans like McCourty or not, Belichick loves the guy. He values his leadership and smarts and he feels that those traits could be better used at safety. Belichick doesn't view safety as a demotion at all. I guarantee you he would take one Rodney Harrison over ten Ty Laws. I think he feels the safety is the captain of the defensive backfield and the glue that holds the secondary together.

Second, if McCourty becomes a Pro Bowl safety, is he a bad pick late in the first round. I think he was drafted lower than Meriweather in the first round.

McCourty was drafted to be a man-to-man guy. Maybe not our Revis, but a cornerstone of our defense for years to come. He excelled in his rookie year and was almost cut his soph year. He's going to become a serviceable safety because he can't play man-to-man, which we drafted him to do.

It's not a total BB draft failure, it's a cover if he holds up as a safety. Bottom line is that we never drafted him to play this position, and the fact that he is slotted there to start just shows BB failed. He drafted a cover corner. Didn't get one.

BTW, this is the same BS logic the Jet are going to use to justify Wilson as a full-time nickel-back. Milliner will start but Kyle was a 1st round pick and will see the bench. I remember the debate about these two -- neither will get a starting CB job.

 

[Brady2Moss]

McCourty was drafted to be a man-to-man guy. Maybe not our Revis, but a cornerstone of our defense for years to come. He excelled in his rookie year and was almost cut his soph year. He's going to become a serviceable safety because he can't play man-to-man, which we drafted him to do.

It's not a total BB draft failure, it's a cover if he holds up as a safety. Bottom line is that we never drafted him to play this position, and the fact that he is slotted there to start just shows BB failed. He drafted a cover corner. Didn't get one.

BTW, this is the same BS logic the Jet are going to use to justify Wilson as a full-time nickel-back. Milliner will start but Kyle was a 1st round pick and will see the bench. I remember the debate about these two -- neither will get a starting CB job.

Whoa there he was never almost cut that is just BS. McCourty had a bad sophomore year a lot of that was due to safety play and again last year he was much improved but still not back to rookie form, because of you guessed it safety play.

I would love to see what he could do if we ever got some good safeties, but since he is one of the only good safeties on the roster we may never see that. With a solid group behind him I bet McCourty would return to rookie form, he has good hands, great speed, just doesn't turn his head maybe because he knows if he F's up there will be no safety to make the tackle and its a 80 yard TD.

By the way if you get a playmaking FS at 27 overall that isn't a total failure, and I've been hard on the drafting/BB the GM this offseason. It is complete crap to say 1) McCourty sucks and then 2)That BB sucks because McCourty sucks, neither are true.

 

[Salva135]

I never said McCourty sucks and I never said BB sucks bc McCourty sucks. I don't need to discuss his CB play anymore because he's been relegated. Talib and Dennard are the best starting CB tandem we've had in over 5 years, it's our key to allowing an aggressiveness up front we haven't seen in a while.

I love McCourty at safety, but that's not what we planned for. Either way, we have some swagger on the outside and I think (if they stay healthy) BB is gonna dial up a lot more aggressive blitzes. We'll be stopping that nosebleed. Might even be above average on defense... imagine that!

 

[Coach42]

McCourty was drafted to be a man-to-man guy. Maybe not our Revis, but a cornerstone of our defense for years to come. He excelled in his rookie year and was almost cut his soph year. He's going to become a serviceable safety because he can't play man-to-man, which we drafted him to do.

It's not a total BB draft failure, it's a cover if he holds up as a safety. Bottom line is that we never drafted him to play this position, and the fact that he is slotted there to start just shows BB failed. He drafted a cover corner. Didn't get one.

BTW, this is the same BS logic the Jet are going to use to justify Wilson as a full-time nickel-back. Milliner will start but Kyle was a 1st round pick and will see the bench. I remember the debate about these two -- neither will get a starting CB job.

So by that logic Wilfork should be considered a bust because we drafted him to be a NT in a 3-4 and he's had to switch to more of a true 4-3 DT and Mayo for that matter.

McCourty could be an above average corner any time he is given the opportunity. Fact is to get the best personnel on the field and give the defense the best chance to succeed McCourty is at safety. Almost cut, sweet Jesus that was a stupid statement.

 

[Claremonster]

This team has spent what, 10 picks in the first 3 rounds on D-backs since 2007?

Whoever is doing the D-back evaluations, and/or responsible for coaching and making the D-backs better, should be replaced. It isn't working and hasn't been working for over 5 years now. The only D-back who has stuck as a starter has been Talib who was groomed elsewhere.

Dennard might punch you outside of a bar when he finds out you said this...

 

[PYPER]

Not to pick on you, but I think this is a good opportunity to dispell this notion or atleast discuss it. Explain this?

2009 defense:
11th yardage (320.2ypg)

2008 defense:
10th yardage (309ypg)

2007 defense:
4th yardage (288.3ypg)

2006 defense:
6th yardage (294.4ypg)

2005 defense*
26th yardage (330.2ypg)

2004 defense
9th yardage (310.8ypg)

2003 defense:
7th yardage (290.6ypg)

*Massive injuries across the defense

BB's defenses never got shredded through the air/in general like they do 2010-present yardage wise. What happened? The Pats offense argument is weak since the 2007 defense was the best for yardage in the BB era.

You look at those numbers and believe they disprove my point somehow? During our glory years, our defense was dominated by savvy veterans, especially at LB, who always were in the right place at the right time. They weren't all the fastest or most athletic (i.e....."talented") but they understood their assignments and anticipated plays well.

In 2001, our defense ranked 24th in yards allowed but 6th in points allowed. Which ranking do you think was more reflective of their effectiveness?

In 2003, as you pointed out, our defense was ranked 7th. A pretty respectable ranking, to be sure. But if you look closer at the numbers you'll find a defense that was far better than that number would have you believe.

They were very difficult to run against, giving us less than 90 yards per game (ranked 4th) and 3.6 ypc.

Statistically speaking, at least in terms of yardage allowed, their weakness was against the pass where they ranked a mediocre 15th. However if you look closer within the numbers, you'll see that they were actually incredibly strong vs the pass. They led the league with 29 Int's, gave up the fewest TD passes (11), ranked 6th in sacks, led the league in fewest yards per attempt (5.6), were 2nd best in completion pct (53%), and had by far the best defensive QB rating (56.2). That QB rating stat was a full 10+ points lower than the 2nd best team.

Oh yeah, I should also point out that they were #1 in pts allowed.

The point I'm making is that the Patriots were not only strong against the pass but historically strong despite being ranked only 15th in yardage allowed. There aren't many teams that hold opposing QB's to cumulative passer ratings of 56 and even fewer that are a full 10+ points lower than the next best team.

Why were they so low in yardage ranking yet so effective across the board?

I believe the answer is scheme and circumstance. Belichick has always employed a bend/don't break philosophy where the goal is to keep the wr's in front of the DB's and force them to nickel and dime their way down the field. This is why the 2003 defense had 30 more pass attempts against them than the next highest team. That philosophy has not changed but something else has. In today's game, opposing offenses are much better equipped to be comfortable with the nickel and dime approach. You can probably blame the patriots offense for this as our success with this approach as led to many emulating it. You could say we're a victim of our own success.

In looking at our current defense vs what we put on the field in our glory years, I think we may actually have more "talent" now. But talent doesn't mean squat if the guys aren't in the right position or don't anticipate the play correctly. Unfortunately it takes time to get those "talented" young studs to play like savvy vets. In most cases it doesn't happen until they they're at the point in their career where they actually are savvy vets.

I believe the Rutgers players were selected b/c he believes their experience in the Rutgers system has prepared them well to play in his. Hell, I believe he nurtures relationships with college coaches to specifically create this scenario. He shares his philosophy with these coaches in the hopes that they will emulate his system and spit out players prepped on the Belichick style of football.

You can argue with me all you want but I'm just trying to explain to you Belichick's philosophy. The disparity between what many label as talent and who he selects in drafts (and why) is all consistent with what I'm trying to explain. And of course, as with all GM's, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Nobody bats a thousand.

 

[DaBruinz]

This team has spent what, 10 picks in the first 3 rounds on D-backs since 2007?

Whoever is doing the D-back evaluations, and/or responsible for coaching and making the D-backs better, should be replaced. It isn't working and hasn't been working for over 5 years now. The only D-back who has stuck as a starter has been Talib who was groomed elsewhere.

Since you missed it, they did fire Corwin Brown. The guy who was the DBs coach and was partly responsible for the Darius Butler failure at CB..

Also, I think you need to go back and recount.
Brandon Meriweather, Patrick Chung, Darius Butler, Terence Wheatley, Ras-I Dowling, Devin McCourty, Tavon Wilson, Logan Ryan, and Duron Harmon. That is 9 picks since 2007. Of those, Meriweather was a 3 year starter. Chung was a 3 year starter. McCourty is a 3 year starter and will be starting again this year. Wilson, Ryan and Harmon just got to the team. Counting them makes you look foolish. Absolutely positively foolish since they one was a rookie last year and the other two are rookies this year and you have no clue how they will develop.

Furthermore, you make it sound like 9 picks is a lot. Well, yeah, it would be if we were talking about just 18 picks. But we're not. During that span, the Pats have had 29 picks. So, really, the Pats have used just over 20% (6 of 29) of their Round 1-3 picks on positions that take up 9-10 positions on the roster every year. 9 out of 53 is just under 17%. 20% is awfully close to 17%... So is it REALLY out of the ordinary????

 

[DaBruinz]

McCourty was drafted in the hopes of him being a #1 corner. Him being demoted to safety but remaining a starter is not a credit to that particular draft selection.

Since when is moving a player to Safety because they needed another Safety a "demotion"?? You seem to forget that he was moved because of the injury to Gregory and then Chung and the growing pains of Wilson. NOT because he was "demoted". It's amazing how people will attempt to re-write history to support their erroneous claims..

 

[DaBruinz]

As a Patriot scout it has to be a little demoralizing / demotivating to see so many picks the past 5 years associated with guys picked just because Belichick knows the coach. It's almost like why even bother

I didn't realize Rutgers had the best defensive backfield in D1 ball the past few years

If you think that is the only reason that Belichick picks a player then you have no clue how the Patriots run their business and you should stop posting on things which you are completely and utterly ignorant on.

BTW, the Rutgers defense was rated 4th in Points allowed last year. It's been mentioned several times. Maybe you should pay attention to what others are posting so you can offer an informed opinion.

 

[DaBruinz]

Last year the week of the draft, many folks here were disappointed in the Tavon Wilson pick and delighted with the Dennard pick. They felt Wilson was a big reach and Dennard a great value.

I think at the end of the year, the majority view proved more accurate. Wilson played himself onto the bench, and Dennard played himself onto the field. Wilson didn't play himself onto the bench as much as Gregory and Chung got healthy and McCourty was playing better over-all than Wilson

This site is not peopled with idiots. A number of folks pay attention.
It's not a matter of paying attention. It's a matter of making erroneous assumptions based on false assumptions by the people. And yes, I've done it myself. When I have, I've corrected it and admitted I was wrong and tried to learn from it. Something that far too many DON'T do.

For every "most wins in the NFL" argument the "worst passing defense in the NFL" can be trotted out. The repeated frustration is that Belichick the coach and Brady the QB make up for some GM/personnel mistakes. But for those, the "most wins" might be "most trophies."

I don't recall any of the draft-compulsives calling out Harmon before this week. And these guys go three and four hundred players deep.

I echo the comments, such as mgteich's, that if you can't offer criticism, what's a place like this for anyway?

Criticism is one thing. Talking out your arse, holding people with limited to no information as GOSPEL (Such as Kiper, Mayock, NFLDraftScout.com, etc), making false claims about previous picks or just flat out lying as some people have done is a TOTALLY different thing.

Sorry, but Reiss has said he's horrible at talent assessment. And, as someone else mentioned, unless he asked the 31 other teams and found where they all had Harmon, then he's got nothing.

Furthermore, people outright refuse to go and learn about these picks or flat out ignore when people post VALID information. Like how the Rutgers defense did last year (4th best in Scoring). This is just another thread proving that.

People want to whine about "VALUE" Harmon offered, but they don't use the Patriots rating system to see where Harmon falls. They listen to the Kipers, Mayocks, amateur draft sites as if those sites have any value beyond what anyone can see watching the games. None of those sites get the All-22 and watch it multiple times focusing on one player. They just don't. They don't have the time. Not to mention they don't get the interpersonal skills evaluation (IE. How did that prospect interview, talk about football, do in film review) that the Patriots get.

 

[DaBruinz]

To back Reiss on that everyone wanted Cassel cut after the 08 pre-season....

No. Not everyone. There were quite a few on this board who felt that Cassel wasn't going anywhere. I know that I was one of them.

 

[DaBruinz]

McCourty was drafted to be a man-to-man guy. Maybe not our Revis, but a cornerstone of our defense for years to come. He excelled in his rookie year and was almost cut his soph year. He's going to become a serviceable safety because he can't play man-to-man, which we drafted him to do.

This is what I mean by people lying. Sorry, but McCourty may have been "almost cut" in YOUR fantasy world, but he was no where near being cut by the Patriots. McCourty CAN and HAS played man-to-man without issue. And playing Man-to-Man wasn't the reason he was drafted. He was drafted to be a defensive back. That means playing at corner and at safety. It means playing in Man Coverage, Press coverage, and Zone coverage.

It's not a total BB draft failure, it's a cover if he holds up as a safety. Bottom line is that we never drafted him to play this position, and the fact that he is slotted there to start just shows BB failed. He drafted a cover corner. Didn't get one.

BTW, this is the same BS logic the Jet are going to use to justify Wilson as a full-time nickel-back. Milliner will start but Kyle was a 1st round pick and will see the bench. I remember the debate about these two -- neither will get a starting CB job.

No. It is YOUR understanding of why McCourty was drafted that is the failure. So, please stuff your BS logic claims in the trashcan where they belong. Seriously. You've been wrong this entire thread.