Yes, even Mike Reiss can't defend or explain BB's draft reaches

[Ring 6]

Yup. Belichick has had over 5 years to completely revamp a defense in his own mold. Scouts be damned, Belichick makes the final picks. They traded up twice last year in the draft, and they've drafted 2nd-round defensive players for several years. Belichick over the last 5 years has had the draft ammunition in terms of picks to trade up, down, whatever to grab the guys who can make an impact. If the Pats trot out yet another well below-average defense this season there is no one in the world to blame other than Bill Belichick. He constructed this as he saw fit. No excuses.

9th in the NFL is not well below-average, but rant on!!!!!!:rocker:

 

[Lampshade]

"and with the limited information I have"

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

I get a bit worried about Bill's increasing infatuations on draft day with collegiate teams coaches that he knows well like Florida,Rutgers and LSU for example.

I withhold any further questions on this draft and his selections until I see if these guys have anything to smile about in TC

You can't complain or question something you haven't seen yet.

 

[patsinthesnow]

The criticism is fair. We have had three straight seasons of an average defense at best that gets torched through the air. With two more top 100 picks spent on the secondary, isn't about time it's halfway decent?

2012:

25th total defense (373.2ypg)
9th points (20.7ppg)

2011:

31st total defense (411.1ypg)
15th points (21.4ppg)

2010:

25th total defense (366.5ypg)
8th points (19.6ppg)

Really though, it's about time this team has a great defense with all the picks spent on it. There won't be any rookies starting out there. Our CB trio is composed of two veterans and a 2nd year player, the safety duo are veterans, the LB core is composed of a 6th, 4th, and 2nd year player. The DL with have three veterans and a 2nd year player. The rebuilding process is over, its go time.

 

[mgteich]

We can't complain (perhaps we can only praise) draft picks until we see them perform.

We shouldn't criticize the offense or offense until mid-season at the earliest.

Perhaps we shouldn't bother commenting on a patriots message board!

IMHO, it is certainly reasonable to evaluate each player of the draft, and each choice within the draft process, for at least a couple of weeks after the draft. Of course, we will discuss these choices for years.

We love the criticize every person and every analyst who disagrees with us. Let us say that there was indeed some team who was ready to draft Harmon between 91 and 102. That would STILL mean that Belichick (or the other team) drafted Harmon rounds before ALL the analysts had him rated.

We used to criticize the Raiders when they made this kind of draft choice. Most criticized Dallas when they drafted a 3rd round center in the first, but at least he was arguably the best center.

The REALITY is that Belichick reached for Harmon. I'm fine in saying that Belichick has every right to do that, and that his success in drafting and in winning gives him that right.

But if we cannot and should not question the choice of Harmon, we shouldn't bother discussing the draft at all. It is very boring to see page after page of how great each our choices is and how we will definitely win the Super Bowl. IMHO, this board is for speculation, analysis, support and criticism.

If we have the right to jump up and down over the choice of Gronkowski and Hernandez, then we should have the right to complain about Tavon Wilson (who gets a very bod rap here) and Harmon.
=========

Perhaps, Harmon will be a great contributor like other 7th round rated talent and UDFA's before him.

You can't complain or question something you haven't seen yet.

 

[belichick010405]

I have a question for everyone viewing this thread so that this whole argument is put into context. Is Teddy Bridgewater a top QB prospect for the 2014 draft?

 

[Joker]

I have a question for everyone viewing this thread so that this whole argument is put into context. Is Teddy Bridgewater a top QB prospect for the 2014 draft?

Who's Ernie Edgewater??...wha??....ok...so I was just released from Bridgewater State hospital...the rest of the lunatics say "High!: BTW....

 

[ALP]

This week's Mailbag called by Mike Reiss is very revealing. One of the reporters with excellent access in the Pats organization, he openly says he can't explain, much less defend, BB's picks like Wilson last year or Harmon this year. Reiss uses strong language -- for a cautious, normally deferential reporter.

"Here's the bottom-line thought: If the Patriots' defense doesn't turn a more decisive corner, and we're seeing some of the same struggles in 2013 as we've seen in recent years, it will be a big disappointment. Some hard questions would have to be asked."
New England Patriots Mailbag: Second-guessing Bill Belichick's draft - ESPN Boston

On Tavon Wilson, last year's #48 pick, he says:
"any team picking 48th overall wants to land a starter at that spot, and Wilson is not there yet..... if a decision had to be made at this time, I'd say no. I think it would be a disappointment if Collins' first-year contributions weren't greater than Wilson's from 2012"

Reiss calls the Harmon pick a "strange one". "My best guess is that it's Bill Belichick looking at things differently from most teams. Part of that opinion is based on talking with people from other teams. In the case of Harmon, I also wouldn't be surprised if Belichick viewed things differently from many on his own staff, but as the personnel chief, that's his right. Knowing that Belichick stresses the motto "do your job" and everyone should know/execute their clearly defined role, I just wonder if anyone in the room stops Belichick before making a pick like Tavon Wilson or Duron Harmon and says, "Bill, we could probably get this guy a little later and get some better value elsewhere." The Harmon pick was a real outlier, and with the limited information I have, comes across as something that would have been done unilaterally more than as a consensus."

He does praise the 2 WR picks. This is a Reiss contribution really worth reading for those looking for insights.

not to rag on Reiss, but this post pretty much compares Reiss to about 50% of the posters on this site, pretty much word for word


im going to have to conclude that such a comparison is unfavorable to Reiss, and he should be able to do a bit better than that

 

[belichick010405]

Who's Ernie Edgewater??...wha??....ok...so I was just released from Bridgewater State hospital...the rest of the lunatics say "High!: BTW....

Hey Joker - I am guessing that you know where I am going to go with this.

The Rutgers defense held Bridgewater to 30-46 for 385 yards and a 3:2 TD/INT ratio over the last two years.

So - yea that includes all of these picks that guys like Reiss and anyone else is complaining about.

How about Ryan Nassib? 40-72, 525 yards and a 1:5 TD/INT ratio against the same Rutgers defense over the last two years.

Where I come from - those are solid performances against two quality NFL QB prospects.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Not including this past one, BB and his FO have been very good to excellent the last 3 drafts and all the credit should not go to just BB. There is no doubt in my mind that if Player X is on the board and Caserio and Adams are drooling over the kid and articulate how well he'd fit in the syste, how good a kid he is and how good of a chance he has in being productive and BB is indifferent or somewhat skeptical, Player X will be chosen.

No question BB will always will deserve criticism for anything that goes wrong with all-things Patriots but surrounding himself with a band of yes men just to stroke his ego isn't one of them.

 

[Joker]

again..I reiterate...I didn't like the pick.

I have no first hand knowledge of those games you just cited...in fact I'm pretty ignorant of the Rutgers program, strength of schedule or player quality.

What you just posted raises my antennae because those performances warrant it.

So..again, I didn't like either Rutgers pick.My opinion is just that and means ZERO in the context of how the Pats look or looked at them.In the end ,I'm going to have to go with the staff and hope I'm an idiot.(which more often that not is the case)

 

[Salva135]

The criticism is fair. We have had three straight seasons of an average defense at best that gets torched through the air. With two more top 100 picks spent on the secondary, isn't about time it's halfway decent?

2012:

25th total defense (373.2ypg)
9th points (20.7ppg)

2011:

31st total defense (411.1ypg)
15th points (21.4ppg)

2010:

25th total defense (366.5ypg)
8th points (19.6ppg)

Really though, it's about time this team has a great defense with all the picks spent on it. There won't be any rookies starting out there. Our CB trio is composed of two veterans and a 2nd year player, the safety duo are veterans, the LB core is composed of a 6th, 4th, and 2nd year player. The DL with have three veterans and a 2nd year player. The rebuilding process is over, its go time.

To be fair, there have been units in the NFL that have been horrible for tons of years, and it has little to do with their round selections. Derek Anderson was the last time the Browns pretended to be good on offense, and it's been downhill ever since.

BB has had plenty of ammo to create a competent defense in the last five years. He hasn't. He's had a full decade-plus to create the transition. He has full or at least major control over all of the personnel moves that have contributed to the terrible performance of the defense.

Just take a step back homers, and stop trying to justify every move through the eyes of Belichick.

Belichick is the GM who single-handedly drafted and helped coach all of the players who have contributed to league-worst defenses in the last several years. Please try and spin this as BB having a great eye for defensive talent and coaching it up over these years.

The buck starts and stops with BB. He has to coach up his own choices. His performance review on the defense is the end result over the past several years. It's been less than "genius."

 

[belichick010405]

To be fair, there have been units in the NFL that have been horrible for tons of years, and it has little to do with their round selections. Derek Anderson was the last time the Browns pretended to be good on offense, and it's been downhill ever since.

BB has had plenty of ammo to create a competent defense in the last five years. He hasn't. He's had a full decade-plus to create the transition. He has full or at least major control over all of the personnel moves that have contributed to the terrible performance of the defense.

Just take a step back homers, and stop trying to justify every move through the eyes of Belichick.

Belichick is the GM who single-handedly drafted and helped coach all of the players who have contributed to league-worst defenses in the last several years. Please try and spin this as BB having a great eye for defensive talent and coaching it up over these years.

Ok - I will do that for you. The Patriots defense ranked 9th in yards during the 2012 regular season after Talib was activated onto the 53-man roster.

The defense is about to turn a corner over the course of a full season.

 

[Coach42]

Ok - I will do that for you. The Patriots defense ranked 9th in yards during the 2012 regular season after Talib was activated onto the 53-man roster.

The defense is about to turn a corner over the course of a full season.

I think even BB would agree if we don't see that kind of performance this year from the D it can't be anything but a disappointment. I still think there are some holes to be filled on the D as well. I would love to see either Freeny or Abraham and and outside CB who can back up Talib and Dennard. At this point I don't think its a stretch to say Dowling can't be relied upon.

 

[edboc]

I would think Caserio, Robinson, and the area scout have some say in Harmon's draft grade and where he was on the board. Is everyone assuming that that BB just went off the reservation and picked up a random Rutgers roster player that he liked when he met him, when he watched him on film, and because Steve thinks is hard worker behind closed doors?

 

[letekro]

9th in the NFL is not well below-average, but rant on!!!!!!:rocker:

All people remember is the last thing they saw, which was a unit that could not defend the Ravens passing game without their top pass-rusher and pass defender. Anyone with eyes could see that the defense was above-average when Talib and Jones were on the field. We now have those guys back healthy, interior rushers where there were none last year, significantly upgraded depth and talent at DB, and Jamie Collins ready to wreak havoc all over the front 7. I would be surprised if they are any worse than above-average this year.

 

[patsfan13]

Yeah and that cheap bastard Kraft has a bunch n interns running the scouting department and won't even pay for a subscription to ESPN Insider so BB can have the benefit of M Kiper's rankings so we can pick the right players.

Just horrible I tell ya.

As a Patriot scout it has to be a little demoralizing / demotivating to see so many picks the past 5 years associated with guys picked just because Belichick knows the coach. It's almost like why even bother

I didn't realize Rutgers had the best defensive backfield in D1 ball the past few years

 

[PYPER]

1) Although commonly done so, yards allowed is not a good way to judge a defense. With the Patriots, that has more to do with scheme and philosophy than talent. We play a lot of vanilla coverages and give up a lot of garbage time yards.

BB's philosophy has always been more predicated on forcing turnovers and keeping them off the scoreboard. Our defenses have actually performed quite well in these areas. I don't have the rankings in front of me but in the past three years I'd guesstimate that we rank somewhere in the vicinity of 8-10 in points allowed and 1-3 in takeaways. I actually think we may be #1 in that category. Doing it one year could be fluky. Consistently ranking high in the top five is a pattern. Our defense deserves more credit than they've been given. In our postseason losses, its been Brady and the offense that have underwhelmed.....not the defense.

2) As for the Harmon pick, I don't see the mystery. BB has a relationship with Schiano who used to be his coach. While 30 other teams "may" have had him off their radar, BB figured that Schiano didn't and that he would have to grab him where he did or risk losing him to TB. Whether those assumptions were accurate or not, nobody knows, but it was certainly a reasonable thought process. Why is this point so hidden to most?

3) We've got a ton of young talent on this team, including the defense. We've transitioned from a veteran team to this youth movement while consistently competing the whole time. No other team does this. The proof is in the results. Listening to some of these posters, you'd think we were like the Eagles or one of these teams suffering through 6-10 seasons. HELLO PEOPLE!!! WE'VE GOT THE BEST RECORD IN THE NFL OVER THE PAST THREE SEASONS!!! GET A GRIP!!!

 

[Coach42]

1) Although commonly done so, yards allowed is not a good way to judge a defense. With the Patriots, that has more to do with scheme and philosophy than talent. We play a lot of vanilla coverages and give up a lot of garbage time yards.

BB's philosophy has always been more predicated on forcing turnovers and keeping them off the scoreboard. Our defenses have actually performed quite well in these areas. I don't have the rankings in front of me but in the past three years I'd guesstimate that we rank somewhere in the vicinity of 8-10 in points allowed and 1-3 in takeaways. I actually think we may be #1 in that category. Doing it one year could be fluky. Consistently ranking high in the top five is a pattern. Our defense deserves more credit than they've been given. In our postseason losses, its been Brady and the offense that have underwhelmed.....not the defense.

2) As for the Harmon pick, I don't see the mystery. BB has a relationship with Schiano who used to be his coach. While 30 other teams "may" have had him off their radar, BB figured that Schiano didn't and that he would have to grab him where he did or risk losing him to TB. Whether those assumptions were accurate or not, nobody knows, but it was certainly a reasonable thought process. Why is this point so hidden to most?

3) We've got a ton of young talent on this team, including the defense. We've transitioned from a veteran team to this youth movement while consistently competing the whole time. No other team does this. The proof is in the results. Listening to some of these posters, you'd think we were like the Eagles or one of these teams suffering through 6-10 seasons. HELLO PEOPLE!!! WE'VE GOT THE BEST RECORD IN THE NFL OVER THE PAST THREE SEASONS!!! GET A GRIP!!!

Number 1 is only partially true. Once Taliban came on board the defensive play calling became more aggressive. BB didn't have the talent prior to his arrival so he played conservatively.

 

[PYPER]

Number 1 is only partially true. Once Taliban came on board the defensive play calling became more aggressive. BB didn't have the talent prior to his arrival so he played conservatively.

Where you say talent, I say experience and smarts. Our defensive issues have more to do with correctly reading and reacting and knowing what to do than lack of talent. You can't throw complex coverages at guys when they can't master the simple stuff. This is why BB has always preferred veterans. In our glory years, we had guys who understood and bought into the style of defense we play. As such we were able to get very complex with our alignments and coverage packages. With young players, it takes time. There is a learning curve.

This actually relates to the Rutgers players. BB believes there is a similarity in the system he uses and what these guys played in college. Therefore, he believes they're a good match for this team.

People throw the term talent around quite a bit. I'm not convinced many actually know what it is. I believe that BB believes there is a large pool of players who's actual talent is very similar and the primary difference between who excels and who doesn't is found between the ears. The challenge is that intelligence is a tricky thing to evaluate. There are so many different types.