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Yes, even Mike Reiss can't defend or explain BB's draft reaches

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by PatsFanStnfrd, Apr 30, 2013.

  1. PatsFanStnfrd

    PatsFanStnfrd Rookie

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    This week's Mailbag called by Mike Reiss is very revealing. One of the reporters with excellent access in the Pats organization, he openly says he can't explain, much less defend, BB's picks like Wilson last year or Harmon this year. Reiss uses strong language -- for a cautious, normally deferential reporter.

    "Here's the bottom-line thought: If the Patriots' defense doesn't turn a more decisive corner, and we're seeing some of the same struggles in 2013 as we've seen in recent years, it will be a big disappointment. Some hard questions would have to be asked."
    New England Patriots Mailbag: Second-guessing Bill Belichick's draft - ESPN Boston

    On Tavon Wilson, last year's #48 pick, he says:
    "any team picking 48th overall wants to land a starter at that spot, and Wilson is not there yet..... if a decision had to be made at this time, I'd say no. I think it would be a disappointment if Collins' first-year contributions weren't greater than Wilson's from 2012"

    Reiss calls the Harmon pick a "strange one". "My best guess is that it's Bill Belichick looking at things differently from most teams. Part of that opinion is based on talking with people from other teams. In the case of Harmon, I also wouldn't be surprised if Belichick viewed things differently from many on his own staff, but as the personnel chief, that's his right. Knowing that Belichick stresses the motto "do your job" and everyone should know/execute their clearly defined role, I just wonder if anyone in the room stops Belichick before making a pick like Tavon Wilson or Duron Harmon and says, "Bill, we could probably get this guy a little later and get some better value elsewhere." The Harmon pick was a real outlier, and with the limited information I have, comes across as something that would have been done unilaterally more than as a consensus."

    He does praise the 2 WR picks. This is a Reiss contribution really worth reading for those looking for insights.
  2. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    Ernie Adams is in the room with him; I think it goes without saying that there are people who have the wherewithal and security in the organization to question Belichick when he needs to be questioned.

    These types of criticisms (Belichick is surrounded by yes-men, etc.) only started coming up after Pioli and Dimitroff left, so I typically assume that that's what they're based in. To that, I'd just point to the fact that the Pats have drafted significantly better since those guys left than they did in the last few years that they were here.
  3. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    This is the same Mike Reiss who has never gotten a single pick by the Patriots correct. The same Mike Reiss who has said, time and again, that he's horrible at talent evaluation when it comes to the Patriots. The same Mike Reiss who had Matt Cassel being cut in favor of Matt Gutierrez...

    It's not Mike Reiss' job to "defend or explaind BB's draft" decisions. So, what was your point again?
  4. PatsChamp88

    PatsChamp88 Rookie

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    And your point is?

    No one can answer these questions besides the coaching and personal staff within the organization and they don't have to answer to anyone but Mr. Kraft.

    As fans all we can do is let things play out and hope they made the best decisions in the draft for the team and organization.
  5. DropKickFlutie

    DropKickFlutie Rookie

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    This team has spent what, 10 picks in the first 3 rounds on D-backs since 2007?

    Whoever is doing the D-back evaluations, and/or responsible for coaching and making the D-backs better, should be replaced. It isn't working and hasn't been working for over 5 years now. The only D-back who has stuck as a starter has been Talib who was groomed elsewhere.
  6. Joker

    Joker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Mc Courty has been released?
  7. Salva135

    Salva135 Rookie

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    Yup. Belichick has had over 5 years to completely revamp a defense in his own mold. Scouts be damned, Belichick makes the final picks. They traded up twice last year in the draft, and they've drafted 2nd-round defensive players for several years. Belichick over the last 5 years has had the draft ammunition in terms of picks to trade up, down, whatever to grab the guys who can make an impact. If the Pats trot out yet another well below-average defense this season there is no one in the world to blame other than Bill Belichick. He constructed this as he saw fit. No excuses.
  8. Salva135

    Salva135 Rookie

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    McCourty was drafted in the hopes of him being a #1 corner. Him being demoted to safety but remaining a starter is not a credit to that particular draft selection.
  9. JMarr

    JMarr Rookie

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    So basically you're saying that you trust Mike Reiss's ability to evaluate players over Belichick's. Hmm. :bricks:
  10. eom

    eom Rookie

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    the whole harmon conversation is pretty much just stupidity for the sake of talking about something.

    unless i remember the details wrong, there's a guy who belichick is extremely familiar with due to circumstance, and wants to draft, so if he passes at that spot he has one chance to get him 10 picks later, or hope he lasts until the 7th.
    for all we know, they might've been trying to trade that 4th into next year, or whatever, and even if they used it for harmon -- wtf is 10 picks difference?
    if you like some guy and put off picking him, trying to get cute and hope he's still there in the 7th -- that's just dumb.

    the bottom line is belichick is most likely a bit more familiar with rutgers players than mike reiss, and he drafted some guy he thought would help the team.
    end of nonstory
  11. FourierSeries

    FourierSeries Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    Not interested in anything he has to say.
  12. Joker

    Joker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    McCourty isn't a starter?..McCourty hasn't been a starter since he came here?...you're moving the goal posts to fit your argument. I am DIRECTLY responding toi the post that says the Patriots have not had one starter drafted since 2007 that has stuck. Mc Courty has...now I'll wait for you to shift the argument again...
  13. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yeah clearly it is far past time for B Kraft to fire BB as gm and put M Riess & Patfanstrd in charge to protect the franchise from the devastation wreaked by BB over the past 12 years.

    Clearly if it weren't for BB and his horrible drafts we would have won another 10 Lombardis, go think of what could have been if Only Mel Kiper was running our war room.


    :D
  14. Joker

    Joker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    BTW...I didn't like the Harmon pick...hell, I didn't like the other pick either. Mike Reiss isn't exactly breaking some unknown story.
  15. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    I thought rebuilding an entire unit (besides Wilfork) was an excuse for losing. Now Belichick needs an excuse for winning while rebuilding? Wow.
  16. Sicilian

    Sicilian Rookie

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    "Part of that opinion is based on talking with people from other teams."

    Translation: I talked to a few teams, and since they didn't have Harmon going until later, chances are Belichick is the only GM who did.

    Unless he talked to EVERY team, he has no idea how Harmon was viewed by the league in general. Also to point out once again, without a 5th or 6th round pick, all it would take is one team to think he was worth a SIXTH round flyer, and they would have lost out on him.

    All this is not to say he ends up being a great pick. He could flop, but then again so can every third rounder. I just don't get this infatuation with thinking we can know where a player was "suppose" to go.
  17. PatsChamp88

    PatsChamp88 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Can we create a sticky thread called "Complaints about New England Patriots draft selections" because you could probably condense 3,000 different threads into one.

    Another thought is requiring someone to answer a question that makes them think before create a thread :D
  18. DropKickFlutie

    DropKickFlutie Rookie

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    As a Patriot scout it has to be a little demoralizing / demotivating to see so many picks the past 5 years associated with guys picked just because Belichick knows the coach. It's almost like why even bother

    I didn't realize Rutgers had the best defensive backfield in D1 ball the past few years
  19. JMC00

    JMC00 Rookie

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    I mean the thing is Wilson wasn't completely horrible. Ya he got beat a few times but he was a rookie.

    He had a comparable year to the #1 safety of that draft class, Mark Barron who was a starter playing 99 percent of the defensive snaps, while Wilson was a backup/rotation guy playing in 42 percent of the defensive snaps.
  20. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    "Insight" isn;t "Kiper thought he would go later so its a bad pick".
  21. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    9th in the NFL is not well below-average, but rant on!!!!!!:rocker:
  22. Lampshade

    Lampshade Rookie

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    "and with the limited information I have"
  23. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    I get a bit worried about Bill's increasing infatuations on draft day with collegiate teams coaches that he knows well like Florida,Rutgers and LSU for example.

    I withhold any further questions on this draft and his selections until I see if these guys have anything to smile about in TC

    You can't complain or question something you haven't seen yet.
  24. patsinthesnow

    patsinthesnow PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    The criticism is fair. We have had three straight seasons of an average defense at best that gets torched through the air. With two more top 100 picks spent on the secondary, isn't about time it's halfway decent?

    2012:

    25th total defense (373.2ypg)
    9th points (20.7ppg)

    2011:

    31st total defense (411.1ypg)
    15th points (21.4ppg)

    2010:

    25th total defense (366.5ypg)
    8th points (19.6ppg)

    Really though, it's about time this team has a great defense with all the picks spent on it. There won't be any rookies starting out there. Our CB trio is composed of two veterans and a 2nd year player, the safety duo are veterans, the LB core is composed of a 6th, 4th, and 2nd year player. The DL with have three veterans and a 2nd year player. The rebuilding process is over, its go time.
  25. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We can't complain (perhaps we can only praise) draft picks until we see them perform.

    We shouldn't criticize the offense or offense until mid-season at the earliest.

    Perhaps we shouldn't bother commenting on a patriots message board!

    IMHO, it is certainly reasonable to evaluate each player of the draft, and each choice within the draft process, for at least a couple of weeks after the draft. Of course, we will discuss these choices for years.

    We love the criticize every person and every analyst who disagrees with us. Let us say that there was indeed some team who was ready to draft Harmon between 91 and 102. That would STILL mean that Belichick (or the other team) drafted Harmon rounds before ALL the analysts had him rated.

    We used to criticize the Raiders when they made this kind of draft choice. Most criticized Dallas when they drafted a 3rd round center in the first, but at least he was arguably the best center.

    The REALITY is that Belichick reached for Harmon. I'm fine in saying that Belichick has every right to do that, and that his success in drafting and in winning gives him that right.

    But if we cannot and should not question the choice of Harmon, we shouldn't bother discussing the draft at all. It is very boring to see page after page of how great each our choices is and how we will definitely win the Super Bowl. IMHO, this board is for speculation, analysis, support and criticism.

    If we have the right to jump up and down over the choice of Gronkowski and Hernandez, then we should have the right to complain about Tavon Wilson (who gets a very bod rap here) and Harmon.
    =========

    Perhaps, Harmon will be a great contributor like other 7th round rated talent and UDFA's before him.

  26. belichick010405

    belichick010405 Closed Acccount

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    I have a question for everyone viewing this thread so that this whole argument is put into context. Is Teddy Bridgewater a top QB prospect for the 2014 draft?
  27. Joker

    Joker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Who's Ernie Edgewater??...wha??....ok...so I was just released from Bridgewater State hospital...the rest of the lunatics say "High!: BTW....
  28. ALP

    ALP Rookie

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    not to rag on Reiss, but this post pretty much compares Reiss to about 50% of the posters on this site, pretty much word for word


    im going to have to conclude that such a comparison is unfavorable to Reiss, and he should be able to do a bit better than that
  29. belichick010405

    belichick010405 Closed Acccount

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    Hey Joker - I am guessing that you know where I am going to go with this.

    The Rutgers defense held Bridgewater to 30-46 for 385 yards and a 3:2 TD/INT ratio over the last two years.

    So - yea that includes all of these picks that guys like Reiss and anyone else is complaining about.

    How about Ryan Nassib? 40-72, 525 yards and a 1:5 TD/INT ratio against the same Rutgers defense over the last two years.

    Where I come from - those are solid performances against two quality NFL QB prospects.
  30. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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    Not including this past one, BB and his FO have been very good to excellent the last 3 drafts and all the credit should not go to just BB. There is no doubt in my mind that if Player X is on the board and Caserio and Adams are drooling over the kid and articulate how well he'd fit in the syste, how good a kid he is and how good of a chance he has in being productive and BB is indifferent or somewhat skeptical, Player X will be chosen.

    No question BB will always will deserve criticism for anything that goes wrong with all-things Patriots but surrounding himself with a band of yes men just to stroke his ego isn't one of them.

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