WR: if Pats re-sign Edelman and Lloyd, are we stronger at WR than we were last season

[patfanken]

Re: WR - if we re-sign Edelman and Lloy, are we stronger at WR than we were last se

Cousin, I think Edelman would be a better pick up than Lloyd. I think he can do more and play special Teams (DB?What?) and BB loves versatility.
But I would say perfectly clear and an understatement is we cannot depend on a Draft pick WR. Three years is the development time when they come into their own. We don't have that time with TB12.

Even WR talents like Green, Jones and Bryant struggled out the gate in their first year. Last years first round WR class of Jenkins, Blackmon, Wright and Flloyd were not the greatest contributors. They will get better but when?

I have studied this WR class. They all have warts. Strangely the only one I will predict will make a difference right away is Stedman Bailey. He is probably a third rounder. All he did was make plays. The others are either lousy running routes, unrealiable hands, immature, don't like contact, to frail etc.
Stedman is like 5"10 and 195. He reminds me of Steve Smith. All he does is make plays.......

But that being said if right now is important to TB12, I think Sanders is better than anything they get in round three so adios with the third rounder. You would not have to give a pick for Danario Alexander to the Chargers and although a mid year addition he was rated as the most proficient NFL WR last year. Watch the tape. His speed is back. His cutting is back. His hands are great. I don't understand the lack of interest in 1 6'5" guy with speed who has overcome college injuries.He is not hurt know and feels great. No Draft pick Bill. Ya hear that? What if he gets hurt again?(see Gronk, Hernandez, Amandola etc. on our roster). Anyone can get hurt including TB12. We pray none of them do. You also have a BB Draft favorite of Jon Baldwin that can be had from Andy Reid. BB and Andy love Draft day swaps together.

Fact -The best WRs on the Pats in the last six years have been Welker and Moss.....and they were?....trades.

To say BB will pick up a right now contributing WR in this Draft is dangerous. I think even Bill knows he has weak points and WR and DBs are not his strong suit. A point was made last night on NFLN that the Past have drafted 10 DBs in the last five years including an over reach for Tavon Wilson. Yes he did not have a bad year considering but he would have done the same job if drafted in the fourth round. His production did not warrant a second round pick.

Just in that second round after Wilson, the Pats could have had Kendall Reyes, DT, Connecticut to the Chargers, Zach Brown, OLB, North Carolina to the Titans who was superb and Lavonte David, OLB, Nebraska Tampa was hurt but a big future. Would you trade any of these even up for Wilson right now? Of course. Back up Safety is about right for him. I hope I am dead wrong. Maybe he surpasses these few but I doubt it.

O.K. I got way off point about the post but my opinion is for whatever reason his Drafts are good but WR and DB are not so much.

The most talented DB on the Pats roster right now is....? Talib....and he is a ?....Trade.

What I am saying is the Draft is nice but that is your development and depth for a Team like the Pats. Teams like Buffalo need plug and play Draftees. As example, I expect Jones will be a force in 2014 and Solder could be All Pro but three years is about right.

I would rather take a guy like Hunt who has ST value (when was the last time the Past blocked a FG? It has been a couple years) and they say he is raw. Remember he is faster at 4.6 than some of our DBs and all of our LBs.

So--------
WR DA
WR Sanders/Alexander/Baldwin
WR Jones
WR Edelman
WR F/A like a Nelson or DHB who is still young or if Salas became available again as we could not hide him on the taxi squad.
DW Toys

You say a lot of good things in this post, Toys. You comments on Danario Alexander make him seem like a total no brainer. The only possible negative to signing him is that we'd now have 2 DA's and that will confuse people like me.

HOWEVER you couldn't be more wrong about Tavon Wilson. I happen to know (well from a once removed source) that the Pats couldn't have been more happy with his progress last season. He improved to the point that by the end of season, he had taken ALL of Pat Chung's snaps. Too many fans want to judge Tavon's season by that one play against Seattle in game #3. They'd be wrong.

Here's a news flash for ya. Wilson wasn't the first safety in this league who was beaten deep by a play action fake in this league. It happens to Troy Polamalu twice every time he plays the Pats.

I can't understand how you can dismiss him as a merely a back up safety after the season he just had. Compared to Rodney's rookie year he was an all star. He had more starts, picks, (4-0) tackles, passes defended, and forced fumbles By your standards Rodney would have been cut.

Next season I would be surprised if Wilson isn't on the field at least 50% of the time. I see him being used a lot in packages where AWilson is used as a coverage LB in the box, and in situations where coverage skills are the priority. AWilson wasn't brought here because of anything wrong that TWilson had done. He was brought here because the secondary was in desperate need for veteran leadership, and needed someone who could bring a real physical presence. Wilson is that bridge for both McCourty and TWilson to reach maturity at their positions

 

[tonyto3690]

Re: WR - if we re-sign Edelman and Lloy, are we stronger at WR than we were last se

In games where both receivers saw action, Lloyd outperformed Edelman in all but two. One of those games, Edelman totaled his receiving yardage off of a very blown coverage that resulted in a TD. If Edelman was as much of a big time playmaker as you suggest, the gap would have been closer.

As for the elite #2 comment, thanks for the laugh. Off the top of my head, here are some other notable #2 options in the league. Feel free to tell me which ones you would take Edelman over...

T.Y. Hilton
Antonio Brown
Anquan Boldin
Eric Decker
Victor Cruz
Jeremy Maclin
Deverey Henderson
Roddy White
Jordy Nelson
Golden Tate
Michael Crabtree

Cruz, white, Nelson, Crabtree are all number one calibre wrs.

I would put Edelman in the same class as the others any day.

 

[tonyto3690]

Re: WR: if Pats re-sign Edelman and Lloyd, are we stronger at WR than we were last se

My point is really more this. We dont know what we will have a WR.

And my other point is that WR and RECEIVERS are two different things.

And the D needs serious help which is another whole issue.

No your point was clearly that we could win a Super Bowl with garbage at wr. You made it clear that you thought if we had garbage we would be fine when we clearly won't. This team needs the offense to score big to win.

 

[Bruins29]

Re: WR: if Pats re-sign Edelman and Lloyd, are we stronger at WR than we were last se

No your point was clearly that we could win a Super Bowl with garbage at wr. You made it clear that you thought if we had garbage we would be fine when we clearly won't. This team needs the offense to score big to win.

We have won SBs with medicore WRs. Do you disagree?

But now we have all-time elite TEs and the O is probably going to be focused around these elite players. Naturally you cant have elite at every position. So perhaps they have to take a little resource from the WRs because so much has been invested into these elite TEs that are never coming off the field.

Plus we need resources to fix the D so it can be closer to the Lombardi winning teams instead of the sieve D we have had lately.

Do you get it yet?


And, if you will notice, there are 25 people here telling you that what we have at WR now probably wont be the same opening day.

I am not worried about this years upcoming WR grouping because I see what they are doing and know that BB hasint just said "We are gonna just give up at WR"

Why some here think he has is really silly.

 

[Bruins29]

Re: WR: if Pats re-sign Edelman and Lloyd, are we stronger at WR than we were last se

When are people going to understand that great players dont win superbowls...The right players who make great plays do.

 

[Jangles]

Re: WR: if Pats re-sign Edelman and Lloyd, are we stronger at WR than we were last se

Is this a serious question?

We swap Welker for Amendola, bring in some random guy from Buffalo, and resign the same guys and we're better?

lol

 

[Rob0729]

Re: WR: if Pats re-sign Edelman and Lloyd, are we stronger at WR than we were last se

I will say this. If you add a healthy Gronk and Hernandez into the mix, I would say that this receiving corp is better than last year down the stretch. I think Gronk is more important to the offense at this point than Welker.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: WR - if we re-sign Edelman and Lloy, are we stronger at WR than we were last se

Julian Edelman scored 4 TDs overall on the season over 500 all purpose yards. Lloyd got 4 TDs over 900 receiving yards, despite playing nearly double the snaps.

Before he was injured, he was blossoming into a far better player than Lloyd.

Assuming he doesn't suffer some immense bad luck again Edelman will be a more productive football player in 2013. Doubly so since he would be Brady's longest tenured receiver.

Edelman had 3 TD's, not 4. One of which came off said blown coverage.

 

[DocHoliday]

Edelman had 3 TD's, not 4. One of which came off said blown coverage.

Note I said all purpose. I include his PR TD.

If we discounted Edelman's blown coverage TD then we should take away Lloyd's fumble recovery TD from Danny Woodhead against the Texans.

His touchdown earlier in that game was also the most blatant blown coverage you'll ever see.

Going by your standards then, Lloyd only scored twice in the season despite playing more than double Edelmans snaps.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Re: WR: if Pats re-sign Edelman and Lloyd, are we stronger at WR than we were last se

Weaker...no welker

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: WR - if we re-sign Edelman and Lloy, are we stronger at WR than we were last se

Cruz, white, Nelson, Crabtree are all number one calibre wrs.

I would put Edelman in the same class as the others any day.

You called Edelman an elite #2. I put up a list of good to elite #2's. The fact that they're #1 caliber is irrelevant. Hell, I wouldn't even take Edelman over Randall Cobb, either. And the fact that you would try to put Edelman in the same class as the others just goes to show how ridiculous your argument is.

 

[VOODOOZF]

Re: WR: if Pats re-sign Edelman and Lloyd, are we stronger at WR than we were last se

That statement about Edelman being an "elite number 2" WR is laughable to the point of making me wonder if the person who made the statement has actually ever watched NFL football outside of Patriot games. When has Edelman ever proven to be an elite anything?

To this point Edelman has proven to be nothing more than a mediocre 4th wr on a team with a hall of fame qb. Put him on a team with an avg qb and he would have been out of the NFL already.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: WR: if Pats re-sign Edelman and Lloyd, are we stronger at WR than we were last se

Note I said all purpose. I include his PR TD.

It's unfair to count Edelman's punt return. Lloyd doesn't play special teams.

If we discounted Edelman's blown coverage TD then we should take away Lloyd's fumble recovery TD from Danny Woodhead against the Texans.

It wasn't a disqualification. It was a note. And it's not even debatable which coverage was more blown. Lloyd's man was at least tailing him in press man. The Jets applied the same coverage against Edelman and his man wasn't within 20 yards of him, leaving Landry instead who was already two steps too late to react.

His touchdown earlier in that game was also the most blatant blown coverage you'll ever see.

Going by your standards then, Lloyd only scored twice in the season despite playing more than double Edelmans snaps.

I don't begrudge a lack of touchdowns to any of the WR's. I said this in another thread to MoLewisrocks before his strangely disappeared. But this offense was a possession offense. When we got into the red zone, it became largely TE-centric.

And you should take note of what I said. I never directly compared the two. What I stated was that Lloyd had 200+ yards more receiving in one year than Edelman has had in his entire career here. What's more, you'll note that what I stated was that if Edelman was the weapon you claim him to be, then why wasn't that gap either closed or closer?

I have 3 questions that both you and Tony can feel free to respond to...

1. If Edelman was as good as you say he is, why DIDN'T he push Lloyd for playing time when healthy?

2. If Edelman is as good as you say he is, why hasn't the team offered him a contract yet (especially since he'll come dirt cheap and has experience in this offense)?

3. If Edelman is as good as you say he is, why hasn't another team picked him up yet?

 

[mcmurtry86]

Re: WR - if we re-sign Edelman and Lloy, are we stronger at WR than we were last se

HOWEVER you couldn't be more wrong about Tavon Wilson. I happen to know (well from a once removed source) that the Pats couldn't have been more happy with his progress last season. He improved to the point that by the end of season, he had taken ALL of Pat Chung's snaps. Too many fans want to judge Tavon's season by that one play against Seattle in game #3. They'd be wrong.

As the season came to a close, his playing time was pretty much nothing. Here are his snaps for the last 8 games (Thanksgiving through the AFCCG):

8/72
2/63
17/70
4/67
30/80
18/59
16/78
9/72


Total: 104/561

The only game where he saw somewhat significant time was Christmas Eve when McCourty moved back to CB and Wilson moved from the #4 to #3 S on the depth chart (by comparison, Chung logged 61/80 snaps).

That doesn't look like the progression of a guy the coaching staff is trusting more and improving week to week. It looks like a guy who barely played, even though the guys ahead of him - Chung and Gregory - were consistently between below average and horrific.

 

[Sciz]

Re: WR: if Pats re-sign Edelman and Lloyd, are we stronger at WR than we were last se

When has Edelman ever proven to be an elite anything?

I'd argue that he's an elite punt returner.

As a WR... I'm with you.

 

[Jangles]

Re: WR: if Pats re-sign Edelman and Lloyd, are we stronger at WR than we were last se

I'd argue that he's an elite punt returner.

As a WR... I'm with you.

He showed flashes

But Devon Hester he is not

 

[Sciz]

Re: WR: if Pats re-sign Edelman and Lloyd, are we stronger at WR than we were last se

He showed flashes

But Devon Hester he is not

Since Edelman became the Pats' main punt returner (last three years), Edelman has a better punt return average than Hester.

1. McKelvin 16.51
2. Edelman 13.39
3. Hester 13.36

(minimum 20 returns)

 

[Jangles]

Re: WR: if Pats re-sign Edelman and Lloyd, are we stronger at WR than we were last se

Since Edelman became the Pats' main punt returner (last three years), Edelman has a better punt return average than Hester.

1. McKelvin 16.51
2. Edelman 13.39
3. Hester 13.36

(minimum 20 returns)

Is that over a career?

Maybe compare Hester's peak years

 

[DocHoliday]

Re: WR: if Pats re-sign Edelman and Lloyd, are we stronger at WR than we were last se

It's unfair to count Edelman's punt return. Lloyd doesn't play special teams.

Hence why I said he was a better 'football player'. Look at my post.

It wasn't a disqualification. It was a note.

Either you meant it as a slight against or you didn't.

And it's not even debatable which coverage was more blown. Lloyd's man was at least tailing him in press man. The Jets applied the same coverage against Edelman and his man wasn't within 20 yards of him, leaving Landry instead who was already two steps too late to react.

Blown coverage is blown coverage. Lloyd had two, how blown is really splitting hairs. Overall I think it's silly to knock a player for catching a TD on blown coverage. By definition the Patriots offense is predicated on Brady throwing you the ball because a WR is taking advantage of an error by the defense. It's a mismatch, clever scheme that they use. Brady typically doesn't throw balls that require a great deal of physical finesse to catch if he has someone wide open or in a clear mismatch situation.

I stated was that if Edelman was the weapon you claim him to be, then why wasn't that gap either closed or closer?

The gap was narrowing until he got injured, really. That's all it was.

1. If Edelman was as good as you say he is, why DIDN'T he push Lloyd for playing time when healthy?

He got injured. If you remember in that span between the Ravens and Colts game he was on absolute fire. They were using him in reverses, post routes, on sideline fades, everywhere.

2. If Edelman is as good as you say he is, why hasn't the team offered him a contract yet (especially since he'll come dirt cheap and has experience in this offense)?

3. If Edelman is as good as you say he is, why hasn't another team picked him up yet?

These two are pretty related so I'll answer them together: because he probably hasn't recovered from his foot injury *and* perhaps there is the thought he doesn't want to leave New England anyway like Vollmer.

Ignore those two, here's another - only 18 out of roughly 70 FA WRs have been signed so far. AKA, it's still early. Assuming 25% of those WRs suck and should retire, that's 18/46 or roughly 40% of the viable WRs have been signed so far.

For someone that's injured, I don't think it's unrealistic that you could have some talent and not be in the first 40% that has been signed. By the way, there have been rumblings that Houston and Chicago are interested, but I haven't confirmed any solid source. Just saw it on twitter recently.

 

[bagwell368]

Re: WR: if Pats re-sign Edelman and Lloyd, are we stronger at WR than we were last se

3. If Edelman is as good as you say he is, why hasn't another team picked him up yet?

Maybe JE is worth more to the Pats than anyone else. Maybe BB wants to prove that to JE's agent much like it appears he is doing to Lloyd. Than when the market bottoms if BB needs one or both - there they are.