Would you trade a first rounder for Deion Branch?

[psychoPat]

Would I trade a first round pick for an established WR (with a Superbowl MVP trophy) who knows my offense and QB better than any other receiver on the planet, and whose $39M contract included a $12M signing bonus that would remain the dead cap responsibility of the trading team leaving me with 5 years of Deion at around $25M in salary only that could be converted to lower his cap hits or enable the team to cut him at will?

.... in this system Deion was a #1 WR Bill was fully willing to pay $5M per year to retain.

First off, compliments to the thread starter for finding a novel (and interesting) way
to discuss Meion.

As to substance, i'll line up behind MoLewis in saying that
ANY very good starter
is worth more than a coin-toss first-rounder.

 

[RayClay]

I don't had a problem with your point Ray, however the talent level for the Pats is questionalble I havn't come down hard on CJ either.

Everything is questionable, that's the point.

Walrus lost the SB last year so he way overspent on WRs to "guarantee" another Super Bowl shot.

LOL. If his division wasn't putrid, he'd already have lost that bet, (the team will pay for years).

I'll take 11-4 and still improving, thank you very much.

Remember 8th round pick and career special teamer Troy Brown
Had 83, 101, and 97 catch seasons when given a chance to start.

Irreplaceable Deion? 78,57,43.

He has 50 this year-Caldwell has 57.

His value to us has peaked, his replacement might come in the 4th or 5th round, that's where you get 5'9" receiver's.

There's really no percentage in falling in love with players, especially the ones who don't love you back.

A 1st for Neion? I'll leave those deals to the suckers. Like the walrus..Goo goo ga joob.

 

[pats63]

No way jose!!!!!!I would rather take a 1st round.BB has done well for frist picks,no doubt about it......GO PATS!!!!!:eat3:

 

[MoLewisrocks]

yes THAt was what he wanted...abnd the Patriots did NOT budge. But wanting that is NOT in anyway wanting to be part of the team. Can you tell me ONE thing that Branch did to indicate he wished to stay with the Patriiots?
His actions indicated he wanted out...plain and simple. I think it is VERY presumptuous of you to keep saying what BB wants etc etc..you are NOT him and can NOT speak for him--get a grip. Did Ty Law stay away from teh chairty event?? Or hold out as Branch did? The answer is NO..so to compare one with the other is hardly reality. I think your point of how BB WANTED Branch so much and the fact that it did NOT happen is more indicative of how much Branch wanted out. Why then is Branch not here then..if BB wanted him so much??

Because this FO misjudged this players resolve and left with the option of a player actually stonewalling them and holding out well into the regular season and simultaneously creating both a void and a distraction not to mention diminishing value following a protracted holdout - Belichick took a draft pick in trade that he felt was commensurate with the players value. A first rounder. And if he hadn't the league likely would have stepped in and forced his hand to avoid a precedent setting arbitration ruling.

And speaking of getting a grip, try switching to decaf.

 

[jczxohn1]

While most teams want a ring this year, there is no evidence that what you state is true. You don't know what they had in mind. It certainly cannot be judged as a bad trade for Seattle this early. You have no proof either that DB is a system player. If these are your opinions than that is fine, but these are certainly not facts.

Actually, Jacky is right. This is the last year of Holmgren;s contract and he was hoping to go for the ring. Some how he may have thought having another open receiver would make up for losing Hutchinson, IMO. I did hear it mentioned this was the reason Seattle was willing to overpay Branch, at any rate.

Branch must remain dead to us, not because of the size of his contract, but because he wanted us to tear up the last year of his rookie deal.

 

[jczxohn1]

Would I trade a first round pick for an established WR (with a Superbowl MVP trophy) who knows my offense and QB better than any other receiver on the planet, and whose $39M contract included a $12M signing bonus that would remain the dead cap responsibility of the trading team leaving me with 5 years of Deion at around $25M in salary only that could be converted to lower his cap hits or enable the team to cut him at will?

Thet's a no brainer and I'm not stupid - and neither is BB. Unfortunately Holmgren and Co. would never make that trade which would involve their admitting they made an expensive mistake and cost them $10M in dead cap just to recoup their first round.

Remember Bill's admonition that what a player does in another system doesn't mean anything. It's what he can do in this system, and in this system Deion was a #1 WR Bill was fully willing to pay $5M per year to retain.

But he wasn't w illing to tear up the last year of his current (at that time)contract.

For those who compare Branch and Caldwell's production, make no mistake, Branch is better than Caldwell. It's YPC. And Branch will always be ahead in the statistic in that horse race,

 

[PatsFan37]

FWIW, just watched Branch drop 2 passes in a row on NFL replay of the Hawks / Chargers game. Pretty much forced a 3 and out. Nice passes, too. Both went through his hands, no excuse whatsoever.

Let me tell you, if Caldwell did that, Felger would be all over his @ss. He'd be yelping all week about why didn't BB go out and spend some of that cap space on a decent WR, instead of keeping it around in the extremely unlikely scenario of having two punters go on IR.

 

[Blah! Blah! Blah!]

Here in Seattle Branch is well liked and respected. I go to some of the Hawks games and Branch has played well. Except for the SD game. ( He sucked) He has saved the Hawks a couple of games. His stats may not show much but he is not Hasselbacks #1 receiver (Yet). It seems like they are still getting use to each other and the trust is jsut developing. Much like Brady with his receivers.

As far as obtaining and trading for Branch I think the Hawks theory was that they had a short window while they were peaking and figured it was now or never. Holmgren is also retiring from coaching soon and I am sure wants another superbowl. Not all teams have the potential to be a serious contender every year. We are very fortunate and I would say for the most part the exception.

Go Pats!

 

[DarrylS]

My whole take on this does not have a lot to do with Deion Branch, but more to do with Steve Hutchinson... Holmgren knew he f...ed up big time by not signing big Steve.. had to do something that looked like he did something to help the offense.. thus Deion Branch, which seems more like a luxury than a necessity. Any team who inflates the price of a good player who is a miscontent, to a very good bordering on star salary is doomed to cap hell in a year or two. Their decrease offensive production, or mediocrity, is more due to the loss of Hutchinson, than because Deion has not flourished.

 

[Pats726]

Because this FO misjudged this players resolve and left with the option of a player actually stonewalling them and holding out well into the regular season and simultaneously creating both a void and a distraction not to mention diminishing value following a protracted holdout - Belichick took a draft pick in trade that he felt was commensurate with the players value. A first rounder. And if he hadn't the league likely would have stepped in and forced his hand to avoid a precedent setting arbitration ruling.

And speaking of getting a grip, try switching to decaf.

yes, I agree the front office misjudged him..and his WANT to NOT be a Patriot. If two sides REALLY want something like a contract to be hammered out, it will happen. As you have said BB wanted to keep him..REALLy wanted him..so one has to come to the conclusion that the other party did NOT want that.
There is still no action that Branch took to indicate he wished to remain a Patriot...none. Why would he NOT wish to be franchised as his agent demanded of teh Patriots? He certainly would have more than enough money..MORE than he was worth..so money wans't an issue..so one has to comclude it jhad to do with playing for the Patriots...He wanted out. What I don't understand is what he was thinking as he and his agent did all of these things..
Even in his first interview with Troy Brown last week, he said he didn't expect to be in a situation like he was (traded). What did he expect whenhe held out?? What did he expect when he failed to negotiate in good faith? What did he expect when his agent demanded that the Franchise Tag NOT be used?? Did he expect the team would give in and that he had that power to disrupt the team? Anyone who knows the Patriots understands that this team will not be taken hostage by a player, especially a second tier player.
As much as BB likes Branch, why did they not offer him a big contract a few months after his MVP SB performance..but instead went after Mason??
They have moved on..Branch sadly is the past..but it more his doing than anyone elses. If one does liek he did, it really sends the wrong message and either he was clueless totally as to what he was doing OR knew darn well what was going to happen.

 

[richpats]

Well, let's see, Denver got Javon Walker for a 2nd-rounder, would I give up a first-rounder for Deion Branch? Hell freaking no.

This trade really showed that organizations like Seattle and New England are MILES apart.

Seattle gives a huge deal to essentially a #2 receiver (in their system), who is only producing at the same level as Joe Jerivicius in 2005, who signed a deal with Cleveland for about half as much as Branch's deal. They've gone from an NFC "power" and SB rep at 13-3 in 2005 to a pathetic 8-7 division "winner" headed for a first-round exit against Dallas in their own house.

New England loses their top wideout, has their QB throwing to midseason acquisitions and still manages to improve their team from 2005. Did I mention the cap space and the extra #1 pick we have for the 2007 offseason?

 

[PatsFan37]

Well, let's see, Denver got Javon Walker for a 2nd-rounder, would I give up a first-rounder for Deion Branch? Hell freaking no.

This trade really showed that organizations like Seattle and New England are MILES apart.

Seattle gives a huge deal to essentially a #2 receiver (in their system), who is only producing at the same level as Joe Jerivicius in 2005, who signed a deal with Cleveland for about half as much as Branch's deal. They've gone from an NFC "power" and SB rep at 13-3 in 2005 to a pathetic 8-7 division "winner" headed for a first-round exit against Dallas in their own house.

New England loses their top wideout, has their QB throwing to midseason acquisitions and still manages to improve their team from 2005. Did I mention the cap space and the extra #1 pick we have for the 2007 offseason?

All good points. Now don't you wish the Pats were MILES apart (other than vertically) from Denver? That instead of getting Chad Jackson, they'd gotten Javon Walker, who has been terrific all season for both Denver QB's. The Pats had lost Givens and if they didn't have a clue what would happen with Branch, after working with him all those years, that's entirely their fault. It's their job to know and to protect themselves from the fallout from tough negotiations.

Their practices have consequences. I'm not saying it's the wrong tradeoff, simply that they didn't anticipate.

So no, I wouldn't have traded a #1 for Branch. But let's please not put the Pats F.O. on a pedestal for not making Seattle's mistake. The Pats made enough mistakes throughout that whole debacle that I would hold back the praise.

 

[Jacky Roberts]

You have yet to mak a factual point. I asked you to provide facts that support your theory and all you can do is turn around and tell me to disprove it. That is garbage. Stop blowing steam with no factual basis. It's ok to have an opinion. All you have stated is pure conjecture. Very failed logic avoiding factual information.

I dont need to see wind to know its windy out, dude. Considering how much Seattle paid to get him (money and their pick) coupled with the Holmgren situation, its clear to see they envisioned Deion to be the final piece of the puzzle. Regarding facts, you aren't going to see anyone admit it, especially since the experiment seems to have failed. I look at Caldwell's numbers vs. Deion's and look at that first rounder and salary cap space and see who won that trade. I asked you to factually prove YOUR point. As usual, you disappoint.

 

[Digger44]

Well, let's see, Denver got Javon Walker for a 2nd-rounder, would I give up a first-rounder for Deion Branch? Hell freaking no.

Your comparison to Walker is totally off base. Walker blew out his knee the previous season and was not ready to pass a physical when he was sent to Denver. You can base Dieon's value upon an injury risk WR. Denve got lucky in that Walker healed quickly. Miami and Culpepper is the other extreme.

Seattle gives a huge deal to essentially a #2 receiver (in their system), who is only producing at the same level as Joe Jerivicius in 2005, who signed a deal with Cleveland for about half as much as Branch's deal. They've gone from an NFC "power" and SB rep at 13-3 in 2005 to a pathetic 8-7 division "winner" headed for a first-round exit against Dallas in their own house.

For the last freaking time, THERE IS NO PROOF THAT DIEON IS INTENDED TO BE THE HAWKS #2. Jackson's contract is expiring. He will require way more than they want to pay. The didn't cough up 39mil for a #2. When Jackson goes he is the #1.

Please drop the stupid Jerivicius idea. You are only kidding yourself when you try to equate the two players. This is not even close to a logical argument. apples/oranges

I don't know what info you base your criticism of Seattle's poor season, but have you ever heard of an injury report? There is this player they have named Sean Alexander. He was kind of the league MVP last year. Did you know he broke his foot? Their QB kind of missed multiple games with a bad knee sprain and is still playing gimp. Darrel Jackson had both knees operated on last offseason and has been slow. Bobby Engram has been injured most of the year. Do you even watch football?

New England loses their top wideout, has their QB throwing to midseason acquisitions and still manages to improve their team from 2005. Did I mention the cap space and the extra #1 pick we have for the 2007 offseason?

The only logical thing you wrote. I agree.

 

[Dragda]

The problem is the Seahawks made this trade for THIS YEAR. They were going for the ring. Bad trade for Seattle. Branch seems to be one of those guys like several others who are made for NE and aren't the same when they leave.

This is actually the best argument so far for making the (a) trade back. We can't seem to find/draft/create WR talent. Givens and Branch are the two that come to mind as the lone exceptions. Troy Brown was already here. That bald white guy that went to Iowa State that was on our team last year wasn't too bad but he was down on the depth chart. Since I can't even remember his name, tells you how pathetic our WRs have been. We've had a long list of disappointments. A horribly long list. We just don't have whatever it is we need to evaluate WRs for this system. Mason would have been a great pickup if that signing would have happened. It worked out perfectly for Mason though. Good for Mason. Bad for us.

I wouldn't trade Seattle for a number one for Deion, though. It would have to be a lower pick. Maybe a two and a lower round swap. Maybe. It's not gonna happen though. His contract, Seattle admitting they messed up, and the bad blood prevent this from being anything more than a mildly amusing thread. I can't think of a situation that has ever occurred like this. The closest thing I can think of is the Coles/Moss trade in Washington/NYJ.

 

[mikiemo83]

I'll let you know in a couple years after the draft and both players are active and playing.

as for my feelings today, Branch was gone already, it was just a matter of completing the deal with another team - once there was no counter offer the fate was determined

 

[Pats726]

All good points. Now don't you wish the Pats were MILES apart (other than vertically) from Denver? That instead of getting Chad Jackson, they'd gotten Javon Walker, who has been terrific all season for both Denver QB's. The Pats had lost Givens and if they didn't have a clue what would happen with Branch, after working with him all those years, that's entirely their fault. It's their job to know and to protect themselves from the fallout from tough negotiations.

Their practices have consequences. I'm not saying it's the wrong tradeoff, simply that they didn't anticipate.

So no, I wouldn't have traded a #1 for Branch. But let's please not put the Pats F.O. on a pedestal for not making Seattle's mistake. The Pats made enough mistakes throughout that whole debacle that I would hold back the praise.

What did the Patriots FO do wrong?? please tell us all. I am sure they would have done thigs different...but given how little Branch offered..and did not bargain in good faith..what can a team do?? Just give in to any whim of a player under contract?? I think they did the best they could GIVEN the actions of a player under contract and wanting out.
As for prottecting themselves..you are TOTALLY wrong about that..Yes a team must protect themselves when a player is a UFA and to get backup; that is VERY triue..but I think it is highly unreasonable to go to great lengths to protect themselves from players who are under contract who MAY be a problem. Is the team to expect every player to be a turd as Deion was, to hold out WHEN he's under contract???? I think not at all..and any team can not protect themselves from that. THAT is totally unreasonable. I DO expect the team to take care of holes of players who leave via FA..but THIS was not the case here. It was of a player who wished MORE money and to get out of town WHEN under contract..and I think it is a big difference.

 

[Digger44]

I dont need to see wind to know its windy out, dude. Considering how much Seattle paid to get him (money and their pick) coupled with the Holmgren situation, its clear to see they envisioned Deion to be the final piece of the puzzle. Regarding facts, you aren't going to see anyone admit it, especially since the experiment seems to have failed. I look at Caldwell's numbers vs. Deion's and look at that first rounder and salary cap space and see who won that trade. I asked you to factually prove YOUR point. As usual, you disappoint.

As usual you don't have a clue about professional footbal. You want to boil down math as 2+2=4 when math is much deeper and larger than your simple formula. You want facts? Try going back and reading the facts that I have posted in this thread. As usual you you fail to actually read posts instead of posting emotional rants not based upon fact or logic. OPINIONS are GREAT, but you can't tell the difference between your opinon and fact.

Here is other FACTS that you will not seem to grasp. Branch was held out multiple plays because he didn't know the playbook. Why? He wasn't in training camp. He has no chemistry with his QC. What QB? Hass.. or Wallace? Hass... was out for 4 games and is still gimp. Wallace is a backup. These are called facts.

 

[All_Around_Brown]

I think this is an interesting philosphical question. Seattle was clearly banking on Dieon being the one missing piece in their offense that would get them to the Super Bowl. They went "all in" this season by over-paying Branch and trading away a No. 1 pick for him. Seattle, was probably thinking that they were trading away a very late first rounder in the deal. With Seattle struggling this year with injuries, that pick is now, in all likelihood, going to be in the mid-first round.

If you were BB/Pioli, if the deal was offered, would you trade Seattle's pick back to them for Branch?

If you were Holmgren, would you make this deal?

No and yes. I think there may be some buyers remorse especially after his recent case of the dropsies.

 

[Jacky Roberts]

As usual you don't have a clue about professional footbal. You want to boil down math as 2+2=4 when math is much deeper and larger than your simple formula. You want facts? Try going back and reading the facts that I have posted in this thread. As usual you you fail to actually read posts instead of posting emotional rants not based upon fact or logic. OPINIONS are GREAT, but you can't tell the difference between your opinon and fact.

Here is other FACTS that you will not seem to grasp. Branch was held out multiple plays because he didn't know the playbook. Why? He wasn't in training camp. He has no chemistry with his QC. What QB? Hass.. or Wallace? Hass... was out for 4 games and is still gimp. Wallace is a backup. These are called facts.

Seriously, do you wear a helmet on a daily basis to prevent self inflicted injury? You are so laughable it makes the ribs hurt. So basically a team that was in the Super Bowl last year sold its soul to get Deion Branch figuring he'd help, when, in three years? Give me a break. I'd like to see what "facts" you have to prove otherwise.

ps- having no "chemistry" with his QC is a "fact"? Does this mean they have trouble adding chlorine to hydrogen in the locker room or something? Please let me know what other "facts" you can come up with.

I love playing with slow folks such as yourself.