Would you sign Matt Light to this deal?

[JoeSixPat]

While that perception is widely held it is not consistent with the facts.

I'd say it's widely held because a lot of people have seen him get beat by speed rushers in some big games when the OL hasn't played well.

Well, when he gets beat by one, it's a flopping on the ground, completely out of the play beat, and that doesn't show up on statistics.

Although raw, Vollmer has much longer wingspan and he's light on his feet. I never see him prone while a rusher steps over him, but i guess it might have happened. Even a holding penalty is better than an unimpeded rusher.

Yep - another in a long list of situations where the stats don't show what we know to be true.

That being said, as you point out, Vollmer is still raw and hasn't beat out Light.

When we first selected Vollmer I thought he might be able to step in as a situational LT against opponents where Light was a liability. Obviously that hasn't happened yet but at some point, someone is going to beat Light out of a job.

I have a feeling that's going to happen within the next 3 years though - just as it took BJGE a long while to dethrone Maroney - thus I don't think Light is worth $8 million a season - though much depends on whether they can find a better alternative to Light.

 

[RayClay]

I'd say it's widely held because a lot of people have seen him get beat by speed rushers in some big games when the OL hasn't played well.



Yep - another in a long list of situations where the stats don't show what we know to be true.

That being said, as you point out, Vollmer is still raw and hasn't beat out Light.

When we first selected Vollmer I thought he might be able to step in as a situational LT against opponents where Light was a liability. Obviously that hasn't happened yet but at some point, someone is going to beat Light out of a job.

I have a feeling that's going to happen within the next 3 years though - just as it took BJGE a long while to dethrone Maroney - thus I don't think Light is worth $8 million a season - though much depends on whether they can find a better alternative to Light.

I think Vollmer at LT and Light at RT or guard would be our strongest lineup, but i understand that is sacrilege.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think Vollmer at LT and Light at RT or guard would be our strongest lineup, but i understand that is sacrilege.

So you're saying that BB is deliberately weakening his team?

 

[RayClay]

So you're saying that BB is deliberately weakening his team?

A big part of a team is managing personalities. If he were to plug in a raw, less confident Vollmer over one of the most popular players on the team, who is still a decent left tackle, he would be setting up a problem situation. Why would he do that, when the raw player can get experience at another position?

Now Matt Light is a very bright player, compared to most. He has to be thinking about some security at ages 33-36 and the chance to play the game he loves longer. He wouldn't be the first player to change positions to extend his career, indeed some star players have accepted part time or back up roles happily.

 

[Deus Irae]

A big part of a team is managing personalities. If he were to plug in a raw, less confident Vollmer over one of the most popular players on the team, who is still a decent left tackle, he would be setting up a problem situation. Why would he do that, when the raw player can get experience at another position?

Now Matt Light is a very bright player, compared to most. He has to be thinking about some security at ages 33-36 and the chance to play the game he loves longer. He wouldn't be the first player to change positions to extend his career, indeed some star players have accepted part time or back up roles happily.

Can you name, say, 3 times when BB has taken this approach since Brady became the unquestioned starter and Bledsoe was traded away?

 

[stinkypete]

In a heartbeat. Light is still an above average LT. No draft pick is likely to exceed Light's production for 2-3 years.

 

[RayClay]

Can you name, say, 3 times when BB has taken this approach since Brady became the unquestioned starter and Bledsoe was traded away?

I don't believe he goes out and advertises why he plays certain players. Your question is ridiculous in that context.

Light was established, Vollmer was raw, what is so hard to understand about that?

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't believe he goes out and advertises why he plays certain players. Your question is ridiculous in that context.

Light was established, Vollmer was raw, what is so hard to understand about that?

My question is not ridiculous in "that context". You're offering what you seem to think is an option that BB might have done, or might do. I'm asking for 3 examples of instances where he's done it.

If you can't think of any, just say so.

 

[RayClay]

My question is not ridiculous in "that context". You're offering what you seem to think is an option that BB might have done, or might do. I'm asking for 3 examples of instances where he's done it.

If you can't think of any, just say so.

Let's see...how many times have they had a decent left tackle for ten years and drafted a raw, but promising LT prospect and decided to move the new one rather than the veteran to another position to gain experience?

I give up, you're right. Probably the only time.

 

[Deus Irae]

Let's see...how many times have they had a decent left tackle for ten years and drafted a raw, but promising LT prospect and decided to move the new one rather than the veteran to another position to gain experience?

I give up, you're right. Probably the only time.

I never requested that it be specifically regarding the LT position. Hell, I specifically pointed out the Brady/Bledsoe situation, which was QB/QB as the cutoff time of my request.

Your argument is that BB will weaken the team in order to sooth some egos. I'm asking when that's been done since Brady/Bledsoe, and giving that one rather than debating whether that's exactly what happened or not.

 

[RayClay]

I never requested that it be specifically regarding the LT position. Hell, I specifically pointed out the Brady/Bledsoe situation, which was QB/QB as the cutoff time of my request.

Your argument is that BB will weaken the team in order to sooth some egos. I'm asking when that's been done since Brady/Bledsoe, and giving that one rather than debating whether that's exactly what happened or not.

You want me to make up three situations that might or might not have happened to prove my speculation that i have no proof of involving the relationships between two specific players and a coach that BB wouldn't talk about, if true or not, if you put bamboo shoots under his fingernails.

Since I'm sure he has a great deal of love and respect for Light, i doubt he would even say it, if true, if he wrote a book after many of the principles weren't even around, gawd forbid.

That's kind of the thing about human relations with managers, they involve humans and situations which are always different. You're dying to come up with a statistic from football Focus to prove I'm wrong so you won't have to actually think and ponder whether these situations ever present themselves to coaches.

Of course, if you look at dysfunctional teams, it isn't hard at all to see these mess up and screw with team chemistry.

Since you brought up Brady Bledsoe as a direct comparison, maybe he should have had Brady play halfback for a while until he could gracefully move him in and Bledsoe over to left guard or something.

 

[Deus Irae]

You want me to make up three situations that might or might not have happened to prove my speculation that i have no proof of involving the relationships between two specific players and a coach that BB wouldn't talk about, if true or not, if you put bamboo shoots under his fingernails.

Since I'm sure he has a great deal of love and respect for Light, i doubt he would even say it, if true, if he wrote a book after many of the principles weren't even around, gawd forbid.

That's kind of the thing about human relations with managers, they involve humans and situations which are always different. You're dying to come up with a statistic from football Focus to prove I'm wrong so you won't have to actually think and ponder whether these situations ever present themselves to coaches.

Of course, if you look at dysfunctional teams, it isn't hard at all to see these mess up and screw with team chemistry.

Since you brought up Brady Bledsoe as a direct comparison, maybe he should have had Brady play halfback for a while until he could gracefully move him in and Bledsoe over to left guard or something.

No, I want you to give me 3 examples where it happened. It didn't happen with Troy Brown, Bruschi, Vrabel or Harrison, so who did it happen with? As for Brady, that's been brought out in a book, and it wasn't all about soothing egos. There was more to it than that, but I was granting it rather than debating it.

The rest of your post is just gibberish, so there's nothing there to respond to, really.

 

[RayClay]

No, I want you to give me 3 examples where it happened. It didn't happen with Troy Brown, Bruschi, Vrabel or Harrison, so who did it happen with? As for Brady, that's been brought out in a book, and it wasn't all about soothing egos. There was more to it than that, but I was granting it rather than debating it.

The rest of your post is just gibberish, so there's nothing there to respond to, really.

You're the one that brought up Brady, Bledsoe as a comparison. To be similar, one would need to play a different position and the other, as I predict, would move to a different position when older.

I'm sure BB should start announcing things he does to stroke the players egos, that would be a great idea. Right after he starts taking medical terminology classes to keep fans and the press better informed on injuries.

"Here's my list of players who aren't really as good or bad as I say, that stuff is just for effect."

 

[Deus Irae]

You're the one that brought up Brady, Bledsoe as a comparison. To be similar, one would need to play a different position and the other, as I predict, would move to a different position when older.

No, any sort of weaning replacement being done for the sake of ego/clubhouse peace when it should be a complete replacement would do. Your argument just seems to have no BB examples to back it since at least the Brady/Bledsoe transition. I brought up Brady just to get that one out of the way rather than arguing it.

It's not that nobody will ever do it. It's not that nobody's done it in the past. It's just that BB hasn't seemed to do it in something approaching 10 years.

 

[RayClay]

No, any sort of weaning replacement being done for the sake of ego/clubhouse peace when it should be a complete replacement would do. Your argument just seems to have no BB examples to back it since at least the Brady/Bledsoe transition. I brought up Brady just to get that one out of the way rather than arguing it.

It's not that nobody will ever do it. It's not that nobody's done it in the past. It's just that BB hasn't seemed to do it in something approaching 10 years.

You have a position other than O Line where players routinely work at more than one position, but not from play to play like defense?

Also, I'll need your candid interviews with BB where he exposes the psychological ploys he uses to manage personnel so i can prove my point.

 

[Ring 6]

I'd say it's widely held because a lot of people have seen him get beat by speed rushers in some big games when the OL hasn't played well.

More accurately it is widely held because most of the best pass rushers are considered speed rushers, and they get sacks against everyone, and although Light does a tremendous job vs them, he allows some to. Hence the misconception. Bary Bonds struggled with fastballs the year he hit 73 HRs, because he made outs.

Yep - another in a long list of situations where the stats don't show what we know to be true.

Or where what you think is true just isnt.

That being said, as you point out, Vollmer is still raw and hasn't beat out Light.

When we first selected Vollmer I thought he might be able to step in as a situational LT against opponents where Light was a liability. Obviously that hasn't happened yet but at some point, someone is going to beat Light out of a job.

What opponents is Light a liability against? You wont get farther than Schobel in the list of guys who do as well against him as against the rest of the league. That isnt a liability, that is better than most.

I have a feeling that's going to happen within the next 3 years though - just as it took BJGE a long while to dethrone Maroney - thus I don't think Light is worth $8 million a season - though much depends on whether they can find a better alternative to Light.

He is worth as much as it would take to find an equal replacement, if one can be found. It is possible that Vollmer can slide over, giving us a very cheap LT, but if that is going to happen, we had better find a strong RT to take his spot. The fact that Vollmer is here makes Light more expendable, but since the goal is to have the best team keeping Light at LT and Vollmer at RT makes the most sense.

 

[Ring 6]

I addressed that in an in between post. They go hard after the Wilforks Seymour (in his prime) Brady. I'm not saying they cheap out, but there were a lot of starting left tackles making more than Light. Be that as it may, it's a new contract and he's getting long in the tooth. I've always condidered him an average left tackle, left over from when Brady threw only quick darts and they ran a lot. We got by with guys named Ashworth and Gorin back then too. Brady simply never took more than an eyeblink to ge rid of the ball in that training wheels offense.

Sounds like I'm hating on Light, but i respect his hard work and leadership. I just never thought he was a very physically gifted left tackle just the way he's built and moves. I can't see him improving a lot at this point and the opposite is a possibility IMO.

They'll decide how much to offer, who to draft and who plays LT. They've done a pretty good job of that, I don't try to play GM. Friendly wager? I don't see a three year deal for alomst seven per, unless it's structure so they can walk out of it (no contract expert here).

Lights contract was large at the time is was signed, and the Patriots came to him and extended him early. That is a clear example of 'going hard' to keep him. Certainly harder than the guys you cited who had to hold out or threaten to because the team wasn't 'going hard'.

I think your assessment of Light is basically wrong. BB clearly has disagreed with you for 10 years, and it would appear the players, coaches and GMs in the NFL disageree with you as well while they are voting him to probowl berths.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm not going to argue with you, I watch the games on TV and so does everyone else.

I believe Antwan Barnes is the recent one I'm thinking of. Of course Brady gets rid of the ball and all our linemen are all pros, but there's no stat for being prone and out of the play.

Because you have no argument, other than you do not like Light so you will have to state that you see things and expect that to be a valid argument.
Does 'everyone else' include the HC who is one of the greatest minds in NFL history and has trusted Light to be the most important protector of the GOAT QB? Does it include the players, coaches and GMs who feel he is probowl caliber? Or are they watching different games than you?
Have you ever played the OL? Do you realize the objective of an OL on a 3step drop pass play? Especially a T? Do you think Brady and BB consider Light's block a success if he keeps his man from affecting the play? Do you really think Light uses the same technique on a 3 step drop quick slant as he does on 3rd and 10 with a 7 step step drop and slow developing play?
If the best you got for me is the plays where his man has no impact don't look pretty, you should debate some fans who are new to football.

 

[RayClay]

Because you have no argument, other than you do not like Light so you will have to state that you see things and expect that to be a valid argument.
Does 'everyone else' include the HC who is one of the greatest minds in NFL history and has trusted Light to be the most important protector of the GOAT QB? Does it include the players, coaches and GMs who feel he is probowl caliber? Or are they watching different games than you?
Have you ever played the OL? Do you realize the objective of an OL on a 3step drop pass play? Especially a T? Do you think Brady and BB consider Light's block a success if he keeps his man from affecting the play? Do you really think Light uses the same technique on a 3 step drop quick slant as he does on 3rd and 10 with a 7 step step drop and slow developing play?
If the best you got for me is the plays where his man has no impact don't look pretty, you should debate some fans who are new to football.

You're right, I hate him. that's the only possible explanation.

 

[Deus Irae]

You have a position other than O Line where players routinely work at more than one position, but not from play to play like defense?

I've given you the entire team to chose from, and every position. I've given more than just "keep him at one position because of the guy at the other", and stated that I'd accept a weaning process at any position (Noting Bruschi, Harrison and Vrabel as older players who weren't being weaned off with better players behind them). You've found 0 examples.

Also, I'll need your candid interviews with BB where he exposes the psychological ploys he uses to manage personnel so i can prove my point.

You're the one who made your claim. Why would I be the one charged with proving it? You've produced no evidence of it happening under BB. Hell, the example I threw out, which isn't even fully on point (Brady/Bledsoe) is the only example that's been given.