Would Parcells go after Adam

[PATSNUTme]

i couldnt agree more.

Thanks guy.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

As for his clutch FGs in the Super Bowls - those were among the greatest moments in Pats history. But I would not jump to the conclusion that AV is the only guy that could have made them, or that every other kicker in the NFL is gonna shank one (or several !) like Vanderjackt. It's not like AV has never missed a FG in the playoffs. Didn't he miss two against Carolina ?

Vinatieri has converted about 82% of his kicks throughout his career, while Vandershank has converted about 88% of his kicks (BTW, Jan Stanerud converted about 81%, IIRC). [In fact, I would say that 2004 was a career year for him, and it's unlikely--though not impossible--that he'll duplicate that feat.]

The difference, though, is that whenever the Pats have absolutely needed him to make the FG, Vinatieri has almost always come through; ince Tom Brady took the helm, he has always come through in do-or-die situations. That clutchness, so to speak, is why Belichick was willing to franchise Vinatieri this season. If he really wanted to, he could have signed Robbie Gould as a replacement, but he didn't. So I, at least, would be very surprised to see the Pats draft a kicker this year.

 

[patriotspride]

Thanks guy.

no problem.

 

[Lamanai]

Vinatieri has converted about 82% of his kicks throughout his career, while Vandershank has converted about 88% of his kicks (BTW, Jan Stanerud converted about 81%, IIRC). [In fact, I would say that 2004 was a career year for him, and it's unlikely--though not impossible--that he'll duplicate that feat.]

The difference, though, is that whenever the Pats have absolutely needed him to make the FG, Vinatieri has almost always come through; ince Tom Brady took the helm, he has always come through in do-or-die situations. That clutchness, so to speak, is why Belichick was willing to franchise Vinatieri this season. If he really wanted to, he could have signed Robbie Gould as a replacement, but he didn't. So I, at least, would be very surprised to see the Pats draft a kicker this year.

Vinatieri kicked 80% of his FGs this season, which ranked him a very pedestian 17th in the NFL. He cleaned up on the chippies. And he was only 50% outside of 40+ yards. Since AV may need to be franchised again, he'll have received two 20% raises, or an increase in salary of 44%. Yes, it is possible that he will duplicate 2004, but it'll cost us 44% more to find out.

The point is, at at some level of compensation AV (or any player) is not worth it, wouldn't you agree ? For AV is that level $3.0 million ? $4.0 million, $5.0 million ?

Should we just ignore his below average season ? It would be nice if the Pats could be like the Sox and voluntarily expand their payroll at will, but they cannot.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

The point is, at at some level of compensation AV (or any player) is not worth it, wouldn't you agree ? For AV is that level $3.0 million ? $4.0 million, $5.0 million ?

Should we just ignore his below average season ? It would be nice if the Pats could be like the Sox and voluntarily expand their payroll at will, but they cannot.

To be fair, I would characterize it as "slightly below average." But, in the long run, I agree that there has to be a limit. But, for the time being, BB doesn't think AV has reached it.

I do think that if Vinatieri gets franchised again, though, it may very well be his last year in a Pats uniform.

 

[mgteich]

I recall a discussion of Ben Coates so long ago. Do you all agree or disagree with the long analysis below?


1. Adam is the one of the top three kickers ever to kick (and perhaps the best).

2. His kickoffs are of average length at best.

3. His total FG percentage is about average.

4. His percentage outside the 40 is unacceptable (50%).

5. What used to be chip shots are no longer chop shots.

6. We all believe that if Adam need to kick a 54 yarder to win a game, that he would do so.

7. He tackles better than most.

8. Adam is likely to be an about average kicker in 2006, making more clutch kicks than most.

9. bb sometimes pays long-time veterans for past performance.

10. Adam had been adamant with regard to not accepting any hometown discount. In fact, he requires more than anyone else would likely offer.

--------------------------

Q1. Does this all this point to wanting to give the highest paid kicker in the league a 20% raise.
Q2. Is a $3M reasonable cap hit for a kicker?
Q3. Should reduce the cap effect by signing a 3-year deal and give him even more than $3M in new money for 2006.
Q4. Does anyone expect Adam to be here for the 2008 season, as anything but a coach?

 

[Lamanai]

I recall a discussion of Ben Coates so long ago. Do you all agree or disagree with the long analysis below?


1. Adam is the one of the top three kickers ever to kick (and perhaps the best).

2. His kickoffs are of average length at best.

3. His total FG percentage is about average.

4. His percentage outside the 40 is unacceptable (50%).

5. What used to be chip shots are no longer chop shots.

6. We all believe that if Adam need to kick a 54 yarder to win a game, that he would do so.

7. He tackles better than most.

8. Adam is likely to be an about average kicker in 2006, making more clutch kicks than most.

9. bb sometimes pays long-time veterans for past performance.

10. Adam had been adamant with regard to not accepting any hometown discount. In fact, he requires more than anyone else would likely offer.

--------------------------

Q1. Does this all this point to wanting to give the highest paid kicker in the league a 20% raise.
Q2. Is a $3M reasonable cap hit for a kicker?
Q3. Should reduce the cap effect by signing a 3-year deal and give him even more than $3M in new money for 2006.
Q4. Does anyone expect Adam to be here for the 2008 season, as anything but a coach?

I agree with 1-4, 7, 8.
Q1: It's a tossup. i'd want to know why he declined in 2005 (age, health ?)
Q2: Probably not.
Q3: He'll certainly want a longer deal, with more up front $$$
Q4: No.

I sincerely hope that AV is one of those guys that eventually leaves the NFL on his own terms rather than floundering with 2-3 teams trrying to make a comeback.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Make no mistake, I'm not saying I want Vinatieri gone no matter what. I just think if it's going to make a difference in signing Seymour and any other valuable starter long term, no way do I want to pay Adam $3 million plus. Not to take anything away from Adam but most of those kicks weren't anything special. There was alot of pressure but he's not the only NFL kicker that could have made them. In the end, I guess I just find it odd that he would be making nearly as much as our starting qb who happened to win two MVPs in those Super Bowls.

$3 mil is high for a kicker, but low for a football player

Adam V. deserves to be paid among the highest kickers - he's earned it.

The only question is how long to guarantee his contract for.

The Pats can franchise him again this and still afford his salary - I don't think they would find equal value in the draft picks they recieved if they did decide to trade him as a franchise player.

That's what it would take for Parcells to get him and I don;t think its going to happen. Maybe someone takes a chance on Vanderjerk - who for all his chokes is still an upgrade for many teams.

 

[groundgame]

the pats can always just franchise adam again.

the pats will just franchise adam again.

 

[bucky]

the pats will just franchise adam again.

I hope not. It would preclude them from putting a transition tag on Givens, which may be possible if the dollar numbers are acceptible. Anybody know what the figures for franchise and transition players were last year?

 

[mgteich]

courtesy of theredzone.org

2005 Franchise Amount Wide Receivers $7,768,000

I hope not. It would preclude them from putting a transition tag on Givens, which may be possible if the dollar numbers are acceptible. Anybody know what the figures for franchise and transition players were last year?

 

[Alk]

courtesy of theredzone.org

2005 Franchise Amount Wide Receivers $7,768,000

PASS!!

 

[bucky]

courtesy of theredzone.org

2005 Franchise Amount Wide Receivers $7,768,000

Thanks MG. I was actually looking for the transition tag because I knew the franchise tag would be too high. But I found the 2005 transition tender for WR on Miguel's pages to be $6.414 mil. So that's obviously way too high also unless the avg of the top 10 salaries actually goes down this year.

 

[PATSNUTme]

One thing that enters into this is that Adam's agent is suspended and he hasn't fired him. Most people think that is one of the reasons that no long term deal was done last year.

The other thing that eneters into it is Adam's marketing value in this area. It would not be the same on a new team until he hit a biggie for them. He does a lot of commercials in this area and makes $ doing them.

Kickers career are longer than most NFL players.