With Free Agency set to start are the Patriots in a good cap position?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by cstjohn17, Jun 24, 2011.

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  1. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    #54 Jersey

  2. Don Kipines

    Don Kipines On the Game Day Roster

    Would love to hear Miguel chime in. Looks to me like the likeliest spots for cuts/savings, if they needed any, would be:

    1) a long-term deal for Mankins that reduces this year's number;
    2) cutting or restructuring Kaczur;
    3) cutting Banta-Cain.

    Also, I'd imagine Crumpler and one of Page or Sanders should feel just a little worried. Sanders is an important contributor, but with Page they have four safeties making nearly $2 million or more. Sergio Brown is under contract for a few more years and is cheap. You wonder if something has to give there.

    I can't see them cutting a team captain in Crumpler, but he is their third tight end and they did draft a player who duplicates his skill-set.

    Looking at this list makes you wonder about their decision to sign Banta-Cain to such a big deal. For them, that was a serious investment. It makes me think those rumors about him being hurt all last year were true. He has to be better than he showed last year, right?
  3. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    #54 Jersey

    No he just flat out sucks.
  4. HomerSchooled

    HomerSchooled Practice Squad Player

    Looking at 2011 salary cap figures - espn.com

    Posted this in another thread, but it's useful knowledge, even if it doesn't include the franchise tags. Most people are assuming the cap is going to be close to 140 million when it comes back. At around 112, we're in pretty good to excellent shape, especially considering our only UFA is Light and we were 14-2 last year.

    As a point of reference, here are my approximate estimations of some of our rivals' caps going into free agency, including the franchise tags.

    Green Bay 129.8 million
    Pittsburgh 126 million
    NYJ 138.5 million
    Indianapolis 138.5 million
    Baltimore 113.3 million

    When factoring in impending FAs, the only play-off level teams in the AFC who are in better shape than us would be Kansas City and San Diego.
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2011
  5. Shelterdog

    Shelterdog Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    Based on the current reporting, it looks like Page is a free agent which puts the Pats at more like a 111 million cap number.

    Also Brandt and Clayton are suggesting the cap will be about 120 so the Pats aren't actually all that far under it.

    It looks like there's going to be a cash floor near 120 million that the Pats are actually very far away from meeting that number-their cash number is something like 81 million right now so they have to figure out how to spend about 40 million more in cash while only increasing their cap value by about 9 million. Lots of signing bonuses is the most obvious way so I'd expect to see a Mankins signing, maybe another big ticket free agent, and possibly some extensions for guys like Mayo/BMW/Chung/Vollmer.
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2011
  6. Metaphors

    Metaphors In the Starting Line-Up

    I saw the same concept in Mort's report but it doesn't make any sense to me. If a team goes cash-over-cap one year (big signing bonuses), don't they necessarily have to be cash-under-cap at some point in the future? To say you are going to have a salary cap and a cash floor at near 100% of the cap, wouldn't that essentially eliminate prorating bonuses?
  7. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    FWIW, it wouldn't surprise me if (A) there were special rules in place that only apply this year, or (B) there were changes in how they do the salary cap math.
  8. Shelterdog

    Shelterdog Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    1.) I think you can stay cash over cap for quite a while if you keep doling out big signing bonuses-if you can squeeze out $6 million in cap room you can always sign a guy with a $1 million salary and a 5 year/$30 million signing bonus. As long as you're willing to dedicate significant amounts of future cap space to potentially useless players you're ok.

    2.) I do agree that this will likely reduce or eliminate the size of signing bonuses; it's easier to manage a dual cap/cash system if players have equal cap and cash values. teams will just end up giving more guaranties or roster bonuses or something.
  9. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    #12 Jersey

    It will all depend on whether they get Mankins to commit to a long term deal. Right now, his cap # is about $2-5 million more than it should be.
  10. Shelterdog

    Shelterdog Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    If the cash floor happens it almost looks like they have to give somebody-Mankins, Mayo, Ray Edwards, Rice, who knows? a long term deal to increase their cash pay out.
  11. Metaphors

    Metaphors In the Starting Line-Up

    Now that I think about it, you are probably right on both counts. I imagine the players would push for changes to the way incentives can be used to manipulate the cap. And the owners would likely want some sort of temporary relief on dead money for 2011 (except for the owners that don't want to spend to the cap).
  12. everlong

    everlong Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    #12 Jersey

    I still don't see how they can have a cap of say 120M and a floor at 99% of that as is being reported. What happens when midway through pre-season you lose three or four players to injury? Or what if you're sitting at 116M and everybody is under contract and you're happy with your squad? Give people raises just to get over? Sure there's always creative accounting and restructures but there has to be more flexibility.

    I think the floor has to be a little lower or they have to allow for a certain percentage to be rolled into the following year with the caveat that you average out. 118M minimum on the 120M. So 115M year one and 121M year two to meet the two year average. You're under the floor year one but only slightly and over the max cap year two but again minimally.

    The percentages would be low enough that teams couldn't load up for the one year push.
  13. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    #22 Jersey

    Did I miss something Freeagency is set to start? When?
  14. Metaphors

    Metaphors In the Starting Line-Up

    I agree, but the elite players (and their agents) will hate this. Cash-over-cap effectively means big upfront money. And don't you need to be on the roster to get a guaranteed salary and/or roster bonus? If instead of a $40M signing bonus, Goober gets $10M roster bonuses for each of 4 years...and then he has his leg amputated when Goober Jr. accidentally slices him with a sword filming a parody of a 1970's samurai movie...he will never see those future bonuses.
  15. Shelterdog

    Shelterdog Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    I don't know all the rules about the cap but I've got to think it's possible to somehow guaranty Goober's future roster bonuses. Maybe it's buyouts or player options or just plain old guaranties, I don't know, but it's got to be attainable somehow.
  16. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Can't really answer the question until we know the cap number. Regarding the cap floor, I don't know how they'll make a 100% cash ('hard') cap work, even over a 3 year period. I would think that there are just too many variables for that. I expect that they'll either have to go to a softer cap or allow for a lower cash percentage.
  17. patfanken

    patfanken Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    #91 Jersey

    A couple of brief observations.

    First, The thing I notice the most when I read posts that give team's estimated cap figures is how wildly different they all are. In this case here, Miguel is attributed with giving the Pats a cap number of $113MM, while the ESPN link that was given has them at $103MM. While I would put my money on Miguel, I can't help but wonder why these numbers are so different all the time, yet they all are reported as if they were set in stone accurate. (except for Miguel who has more disclaimers on his page than my health insurance ;)

    Secondly, IMHO trying to judge a team's cap situation requires TWO figures. Besides the actual dollar figure, you need to know how many players are under contract. In other words, A team who has is within $5MM of the cap, but has 45 players under contract is better off that a team who is $10MM under the cap but has only 32 under contract.Unless you know how many players that cap number represents, the dollar figure is kind of meaningless.

    From what I understand the Pats have about 45 players under contract, and are about $10-13MM under the estimated cap. The Jets on the other hand are currently over the proposed number and only have around 35 players under contract. Please correct me if I'm drastically wrong in those estimates.
  18. Shelterdog

    Shelterdog Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    The ESPN link doesn't include RFAs and players who got hit with the franchise tag. It also doesn't reflect a lot of the late February cuts like Gholston/Woody/Taylor/B. Sanders.
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2011
  19. HomerSchooled

    HomerSchooled Practice Squad Player

    Forgot about those. I think I read that was an extra 10 mil or so off the cap for the jets.
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2011
  20. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    It's just too early to talk in any depth about the cap. We don't know what it will be, nor what any cash floor will be or how it will work (although reportedly the offer proposed it be assessed over 3 season spans). Brandt and others when referring to $140M estimates are talking cap plus benefits (of around $20M). The last cap offered before this round of talks was $114 by the league and $126 proposed by the NFLPA. Most pundits therefore believe it will come in right between those two at $120M or so. The old salary cap floor was set to be 90% by 2011. The owners offered that 90% for the cash floor when they first proposed it. Apparently they have increased that offer but close to 100% could mean anything north of that like 93% or 95%...

    The Pats are in good shape cap wise because they are under any rumored cap and they have quite a few players signed. Their only potential FA to resign are either low cost or there is question if they want him (Light) at more. They can convert some of the salary or roster bonus due players this year to clear more space if needed. Cash wise they may well also get cash credit for $10M of Brady's signing bonus which was deferred to be paid this August. And there are yet the actual rookie deals and bonus money to be figured in. As well as multiple potential contract extensions for say Welker, Branch, Mayo, Lawfirm, Connolly...not to mention a deal for Mankins if they can come to terms.

    They have flexibility which if you're as smart as they are is all you ever really need.
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