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Will You cheer or Boo Adam Vinatieri When he returns as a Colt on 11/5/06


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Asking for your support
 

Will You Cheer or Boo Adam Vinatieri When he returns as a Colt on 11/5/06?

  • Cheer: He helped us Win 3 Super Bowls

    Votes: 39 41.5%
  • Boo: Sell out anybody but the hated Colts

    Votes: 55 58.5%

  • Total voters
    94
  • Poll closed .
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I will cheer him.Lets be honest he is getting older and his back is showing its age.He wanted to kick in a dome and they paid more money too.

Its a win win for adam he did what is best for him as he is sure bill kick him out the day he blows a few kicks and then he will be jobless and retired.he is trying to prolong his career and play for a few more years.

Nothing to boo for me as every person must do what is best for him.If he can even play 1 yr more in a dome than in the outside fields of new england and be effective he has done good for himself.

At the end of the day ,NFL is a business first and foremost and as an employee with a short productive span one needs to think about oneself .
 
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Isn't it interesting that PF1996 and Satz can represent the full spectrum of viewpoints without resorting to being heavy-handed pricks? :D
 
He deserves the same reaction Johnny Damon received when he came to Fenway the first time - Thunderous Boos.

If it had been any other team than the Colts, I would be cheering for him. But the colts? Screw that, his ass is getting booed.
 
5 Rings for Brady!! said:
Isn't it interesting that PF1996 and Satz can represent the full spectrum of viewpoints without resorting to being heavy-handed pricks? :D

You should try that sometime. :D
 
MoLewisrocks said:
Quoting Billy Beane on a football board. When was the last time (or the first time) he won anything with his moneyball theories in Oakland.

Don't be silly. How would the Red Sox and Yankees fare if they had a $50mil payroll, like that of Oakland has had under Beane? Would they make the playoffs multiple times, like Oakland has had under Beane? How well would the A's do if they had a payroll in excess of $100mil? Let me give you a hint. When the current Red Sox ownership took over in 2002, they hired Bill James and Voros McCracken, two of the most respected sabermetricians in baseball, who's philosophy is the foundation of Moneyball. Needless to say the Red Sox took a Moneyball approach and combined it into a $100+mil payroll, and viola!!!, and 86-year curse is broken!!!

If you're a Red Sox fan and appreciate a player like Kevin Youkilis, you can thank Moneyball. I'm not a Red Sox fan, but Youkilis not making the All Star game is a shame. If you look at traditional stats like HR, RBI, BA, you'd think I was nuts. However, his OBP and SLG are both excellent. So far in 2006, Youkilis is more productive with 9-10 HRs than most players with around 15 HRs. I consider the Patriots to be football's answer to Moneyball, because they place a value on any particular player and seldom, if ever, overspend, especially on OL, RBs and WRs, positions other teams cough up wads of cash for.

MoLewisrocks said:
Clutch exists and whether Beane wants to acknowledge it or not is immaterial. Clutch is part of what gets you to those opportunities to kick in a Superbowl. Brady and Vinatieri are clutch, money players. That's why they win championships while Beane's A's simply cannot. Manning and Vanderjerk have also had multiple opportunities to come up clutch and win HFA, advance in the playoffs, win a division. And they just cannot perform in that clutch. Clutch doesn't mean you do it every time, just far more often than not when it counts the most.

I was referring specifically to Super Bowl GW FG attempts. Adam is only the 3rd kicker in SB history to have that opportunity. Jim O'Brien's last second kick gave the Baltimore Colts a 16-13 victory over the Dallas Cowboys in Super Bowl V. Scott Norwood's missed last second FG in Super Bowl XXV clinched a 20-19 win for the Giants. And that's it. We didn't need Adam to win SB 39, unless you think only Adam can kick a 22 yard FG in a Super Bowl. :D

Would you agree that there is the possibility of the existence "clutch" kickers around the league that never had the opportunities that Adam had?

"Once clutch, always clutch", doesn't hold up. Derek Jeter is considered
"clutch" but he hasn't always come through, as evidenced by his team's playoff failures since Game 7 of the 2001 WS. You mentioned Tom Brady, who I strongly feel is the best player in football today. However, was he "clutch" against Denver in the AFC Divisional game? His brain fart INT turned a potential 10-9 game into a 17-6 deficit. Therefore, it is logical to assume that Adam, who missed a 43-yard FG in the Denver game, won't always be "clutch".

I've seen Adam cost us games with missed FGs in the past...

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=748

With the benefit of hindsight and new-found bitterness, Patriots fans are better able to nitpick. In eight of those 20 victories, Vinatieri had missed an earlier field goal, necessitating his late-game heroics. On 18 of the 20 occasions, Vinatieri was kicking in a tied game, where a successful field goal would mean victory, but a failed attempt would not necessarily result in a loss.

The pressure is considerably lessened when you know that you might get another chance. The only time that Vinatieri hit a field goal to overcome a deficit in the final minute, it was from just 23 yards out. That happened in Week 1 of the 1999 season.

New England also suffered six defeats by three points or less in games when Vinatieri missed at least one field goal:
On Oct. 25, 1998, Vinatieri missed a 45-yard field goal in a 12-9 OT loss to the Dolphins.
On Nov. 15, 1998, Vinatieri missed two 39-yard field goals in a 13-10 loss to the Bills.
On Oct. 10, 1999, Vinatieri missed two field goals, including a 32-yarder with four seconds left, in a 16-14 loss to the Chiefs.
On Dec. 26, 1999, Vinatieri missed three field goals, including a 33-yarder with two seconds left in regulation and a 44-yarder on the first possession of overtime, in a 13-10 OT loss to the Bills.
On Nov. 11, 2000, Vinatieri missed a 29-yard field goal in a 20-19 loss to the Jets.
On Sept. 28, 2003, Vinatieri missed a 46-yard field goal in a 20-17 loss to the Redskins.
 
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JoeSixPat said:
I never bought that contrived excuse and assumed no one else did either.

This is the NFL. There are rules about teams not talking with agents about players under contract and other anti-tampering rules etc etc etc - but when it comes to money, I think we all know those conversations still take place -quietly.

It's naive to think that Adam was "prevented" from having his agent make a call on the QT to seek a last and best offer from the Patriots.

It's naive to think that if there was the possiblity of more money on the table his agent wouldn't have pushed for it - let alone Adam himself.

Even the absence of that "contingent on not bringing the offer back to the Patriots" aspect of the story for quite a while strikes me as suspicious, as it came out only when Adam V. started taking some heat for not letting the Patriots match.

And in the worst case scenario, if Adam did bring the offer back to the Pats and they matched or bettered the offer - what's the worst thing that happens?

Polian cries foul and looks like a schmuck and Adam V. is even more of a local hero for it and has more money and security to boot?

More likely, if Adam spurned the Colts they'd just keep quiet about the terms of the offer (if there were any such terms) and act like they expected him to return to the Pats all along, but just wanted to drive the price up for a rival.

Bottom line - all things being equal (the money) Adam preferred NOT to return to NE. That was his choice.

The only thing that keeps my anger in check is the knowledge that the ball was in the Patriots court for a very long time, and they also had the option of franchising him again and chose not to - likely misreading the K FA market as you say.

The only problem is teams do this all the time. How often do you hear it suggested here that we take that approach with Ty. And I'm sure in hindsight BB wishes he had taken that approach with Mason in 2005. Teams will do lots of things to avoid being forced into a bidding war for a player they really want. Including even disavowing interest.

The ball was in the Patriots court for a very long time. Dating back as far as 2001 they were unwilling to give him a true long term deal. The three year guaranteed deal was a way for them to dance around the issue back then. How that played out 4 years later doesn't bode well for Richard retiring here if as 2009 winds down he still wants to be the highest paid DL in the league.

And I think in Adam's case, because of his position and his high profile, he felt some small sense of responsibility for the Gostkowski's who follow to raise the compensation bar for kickers. The highest paid to that point remained Janakowski who signed his 5/$10.5M with $2.8M guaranteed deal in 2004. The cap had gone up more than 25% since then, and while several deals had come close to that in shorter term AAV in 2005, none had surpassed it.

As for the worst case scenario for Adam, that would have been taking the offer back to NE and having them not budge as Polian withdrew his offer altogether. There were reports that the Pats had made some overtures while Adam was in GB and had begun to soften their position on some signing bonus to some extent. Obviously though those talks had not yet yielded a deal nearly as favorable as the one he had on the table from the Colts on day one of that negotiation. Adam was under no oblication to see if a few more days would yield light years more than the last two years had, especially at the risk of losing the bird in hand the Colts represented.

Did he want to leave? I think he had decided that from a business standpoint it was time to move on. But to me that is different from a player simply not wanting to play here anymore. I think for the most part they all want to stay. But I think 5 years of difficult negotiations sandwiched around 3 superbowls brought him to the point where he was not inclined to take a deal from this organization that had no real or implied guarantees. And I can't blame him for coming to that conclusion. I think his leaving was more a sign of resignation to the fact that here he would never be secure on more than a year to year basis. Few aging players will take that to stay when someone you have done nothing for is prepared to offer you a lot more. In fact few young players will either. It's weighing the risk that your paychecks could stop at the end of any season because of something that happened to you while in the service of this franchise, and it's then your tough luck. So to assume the risk most players want to see a percentage of their money up front or guaranteed (sharing the risk with the franchise). Gramatica was cut in the second year of his once highest paid deal - but he had two years salary and a $2M bonus to boot to ease his abdominal pain. And if the franchise you have worked effectively for for ten years won't step up and offer you that level of security, and strangers will, it probably is time to move on.
 
MoLewisrocks said:
As for the worst case scenario for Adam, that would have been taking the offer back to NE and having them not budge as Polian withdrew his offer altogether.

But that's the point - such a threat is a paper tiger - if it even was a "real" condition of the offer (I think its clear that was a BS excuse made up later about why Adam didn't let the Patriots match).

Polian wasn't going to pull that offer if Adam accepted it.... the Colts were making it clear they weren't interested in a bidding war - here's our offer - its a good one, take it or leave it and don't play us against the Patriots because we're not going higher.

There's half a dozen ways that someone with enough plausible deniability and distance from Adam and his agents can make a call to bounce a number off of the front office to see if a better offer were available - if indeed he wanted to go back to NE.

In the end Adam made the right call for him - he felt it was the right place, for the right amount of time for the right amount of money... and just wasn't intereseted in having the Patriots meet or beat the offer.

That's his right to do so - but let's not kid ourselves and say that Adam was "prohibited" from giving the Patriots a chance to match. We all know how easy it is for those conversations to take place - even when the NFL "prohbits" collusion and tampering.

Adam chose not to let the Patriots match because all things being equal, he didn't want to return. The rest is all PR spin by his agent.
 
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Brady-To-Branch said:
When the current Red Sox ownership took over in 2002, they hired Bill James and Voros McCracken, two of the most respected sabermetricians in baseball, who's philosophy is the foundation of Moneyball. Needless to say the Red Sox took a Moneyball approach and combined it into a $100+mil payroll, and viola!!!, and 86-year curse is broken!!!

Actually the Red Sox took Pedro Martinez and combined him with Curt Shilling, the first time in modern history they had two aces atop their roster, then whiffed on baseball's version of Peymeaton (Payrod) so remained stuck with the second highest paid player in he game they could not give away, combined them with a $130M payroll that included David Oritiz- a clutch hitter in his own right though he would likely lead the league in walks without that mega- expensive problem man-child still hitting ahead of or behind him, and viola....

I consider the Patriots to be football's answer to Moneyball, because they place a value on any particular player and seldom, if ever, overspend, especially on OL, RBs and WRs, positions other teams cough up wads of cash for.

The Red Sox will overspend for any player they think will help them gain an edge on their arch rivals even if it results in neither of them winning more often than not in the last several seasons. So would Billy Beane if he could. The Sox were prepared to rent a 42 year old pitcher who has prospered in the NL for the last couple of seasons by the month and let him write his own rules for off days. That's about as un-moneyball as you can get.

Sabermetrics barely correlates in baseball (see 2005 WC Chicago White Sox - the sabermatricians worst nightmare, and their manager who doesn't even own a computer) and doesn't at all in football because of the multiplicity of systems and schemes within systems. Pitching and defense wins in baseball, but sabermetrics can't seem to find a model that even accurately quantifies defense let alone accounts for the fact that a discarded Derek Lowe morphs into a series savior or a lightly rated Derek Jeter is somehow in precisely right place at the most unpredictable time and makes a defensive circus play, or a highly touted Slappy McPayrod will prove more beneficial to the team who courted him when playing for the arch enemy who landed him or a championship will turns on poor decision making in the clutch by a field manager irrespective of the sabermetric talent at his disposal.

Stats are a tool, and only a tool. Players in either sport will tell you that not only does clutch exist, they will tell you that championships are won on dirt and grass rather than on spreadsheeets and computer discs by guys who aren't always the most talented who perform above sabermetric expectations in a split second moment when it's all on the line. BB watches tape, and he identifies guys who are instinctively good football players with above average work ethic and he finds ways to plug them into his system. He overpays lots of those guys based on league valuation, he just won't overpay based on this teams valuation or compensation model (see Mike Vrabel). He eschews the stat happy overhyped mega talents, even while appreciating their talent, because in addition to being overpriced they generally lack the temperment to be versatily team oriented players. But he does require some exceptional talent. He allocates greater financial committment to his defense because historically with out it you don't win in the second season. Having a consistent and clutch kicker he trusts and can count on (BB called Adam the best money kicker in the game) made it less of a risk for him to be spend more on efense by being being fiscally prudent on overall offense. Having a clutch QB who can pretty consistently do more with less helped too.


I was referring specifically to Super Bowl GW FG attempts. Adam is only the 3rd kicker in SB history to have that opportunity.

And he earned it, for the entire franchise. He misses the game tying kick in 2001, or the game winning one for that matter which he got on a coin toss, and there may well have been not just one less Lombardi in the case but it could remain empty at 47 years and counting. That kick kept hope alive, just like the Brady rushing TD and the drive that almost culminated in a fumble. Minus that win there is a very good chance Belichick and Brady depart in the ensuing season and Drew never gets traded to Buffalo. Ditto in 38, where given the 4th quarter collapse of an exhausted defense and the momentum shift awakening the greatest show on turf, there was likely far less than a 50-50 chance we win it in OT - if we win the toss. That was why BB and CW made the decision to go for it. Not only was time running out, our defense already had. Doesn't mean it was all Adam's doing, but when the chips were down he delivered. And that effected the way this team played over the next few seasons. Brady and Belichick gameplan with a level of trust because they believed all they had to do was keep it close or get it close and if 3 points would tie it or win it Adam could be counted on to deliver. Nobody delivers every time, including Brady and Belichick. And Belichick would be the first to admit that on the part of a pretty clutch coaching staff as well.

Would you agree that there is the possibility of the existence "clutch" kickers around the league that never had the opportunities that Adam had?

Of course, just as many as their are are clutch QB's who just didn't luck into BB's system in backyards in America let alone on 31 other franchises who could do what Tom does just given the chance...:rolleyes:

"Once clutch, always clutch", doesn't hold up. Derek Jeter is considered
"clutch" but he hasn't always come through, as evidenced by his team's playoff failures since Game 7 of the 2001 WS. You mentioned Tom Brady, who I strongly feel is the best player in football today. However, was he "clutch" against Denver in the AFC Divisional game? His brain fart INT turned a potential 10-9 game into a 17-6 deficit. Therefore, it is logical to assume that Adam, who missed a 43-yard FG in the Denver game, won't always be "clutch".

I've seen Adam cost us games with missed FGs in the past...

I've seen Jeter cost the Yankees games, and Belichick and Brady cost us games, but that doesn't mean they aren't clutch and won't continue to be. Clutch isn't an all or nothing skill set, it's just an intangible capacity to perform when necessary at a higher than average level more often than not. That's why it's hard to quantify statistically. And saying that doesn't preclude it's existance, just highlights the limits of statistical analysis to quantify anything intangible. It's like the difference between scientific evidence and anecdotal evidence. The inability to replicate anecdotal findings in a lab setting doesn't disprove their existence. You cannot quantify art via science, and sports are a blending of both. Which is why the guy with the fastest time, or the longest arms, or the farthest jump will as often as not inexplicably suck in the NFL or even MLB while a guy whose measurables barely get him drafted will inexplicably blossom into an all star.

The most inciteful thing Kerry said in that particular CHFF analysis was:

CHFF said:
With the benefit of hindsight and new-found bitterness, Patriots fans are better able to nitpick.

About sums this entire thread up.
 
Mo,

There are always exceptions to a rule and the 2005 Chisox are one of them. In Moneyball Paul Depodesta did a correlation study of the 20th century and found only two stats that correlate with winning PCT: SLG and OBP. Schilling and Pedro didn't always dominate and only played twice a week. The 2004 Red Sox had the greatest lineup in history.

Unlike football, playoff baseball is a different animal. Baseball Prospectus recently did a correlation study on WSCs dating back to 1972. They found 3 regular season attributes that correlate with winning the WS: team K/9, good defense, and a good closer. Problem is, what gets a team to the playoffs, doesn't always keep them alive during the playoffs. Football however, is constant in that you don't play the same team in a best of 5 or best of 7 and the best team usually wins, unlike baseball where the worst team in the league has a 25% chance of beating the best team in the league in a best of 5 series.

Mo, I think the Pats did the right thing not paying a kicker $3mil/yr. I'm happy with this. Therefore, who's picking nits? :D
 
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Goodness. The guy's a kicker. Can't we just let him go?
 
If there's an opportunity before or at the beginning of his first game back in Foxboro (like, if he's announced as kicking off or something), I'll cheer him for all he did for us (come on, remember the Snow Bowl). But, if he's taking the field to score points against us in the regular season game or if he's kicking off in the Playoffs, I'll boo him like any opponent.
 
We cheered Pedro why not Adam...I say time to move on I drank the koolaid..:D
 
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