Will the Pats stand pat at wide receiver?

[Deus Irae]

The Jets loss was more to do with the lack of execution and the lack of pass protection by the O line. The need for a deep route running WR is crap. Where was that starting WR from 01-06?? This offense is built to stretch the field horizontally not vertically.

The team is not the same team as it was in the first half of the 2000s. What used to be a team where the offense was mostly just not supposed to lose the game has morphed into a team where the offense has to win games. Teams with capable secondaries are able to clamp down on the current receivers because Branch is not the Branch of old, Welker is a short/intermediate threat and Tate hasn't been up to the job.

 

[Richard Camembert]

I could understand the hindering argument if you were talking about bringing in a Steve Smith from Carolina, or Chad Johnson from the Bungles. Those are older players who'll be gone in a year or two and who might have stopped the Tate/Price development. In the case of a young player like Rice, though, you're not just renting the player for a season. As for the cap space argument, it does the team no good to save cap space by starting Tate/Price if they suck.

I guess I just don't see the reasoning behind avoiding a 24 year old WR who's already pretty well developed, unless you have an issue with his skills/health moving forward.

I feel the cap hit is more important than the hindering argument; I see the point that Rice would be brought in as a core player and he would prolly supplant both Price and Tate unless either develops a Branch-like skill set, and that'd be fine. OTOH if Rice gets signed to a four or five year deal that'd be a huge cap commitment for an area that has been very fiscally tight and faces a Welker bump too.

 

[Joker]

I was at the game up close and while all these things that have been said are somewhat true, the real problem that game was Brady...after the first quarter he played very rabbit like, like he was scared in the pocket. He had numerous OPEN receivers he never saw drive after drive. I don't think he felt very comfortable behind that line all game for some reason.The game tape I watched when I got home did not show these wide open receivers like I saw at the game.

I want to see a resolution to this Mankins problem...just end all this drama and "he said/he said" bullcrap. If he wants to move on, get him on the bus NOW and move on. As a fan I am SICK of all his and his Roy Rogers attorney posturing like they're the last true American heroes.He complains about a 10 million dollar tag??? Get lost. I'd rather watch a young kid cut his teeth and grow in this offense than put up with one more day of Grimace the Turnstile rewriting Patriot history. Better than John Hannah??? The New York Giants defense of 2007 just collapsed in hysterics laughing at Humpty Dumptykins.

 

[Triumph]

You really need to read better. What Andy wrote was equivalent to an IF/THEN statement. IF Welker and Edelman play the same position, then they are the same player.

We all know that they aren't. And that was Andy's point. Welker has better GAME quickness than Edelman. Edelman has better game speed.

Why is it that NE NEEDS a "burner" on the outside. And what says that Price can't do that???

BTW, Edelman didn't have a "poor" second season if you put any merit into what Tom Brady says. Edelman was a victim of circumstance in that there just weren't enough touches to go around.

You need to read better.

Where did I say that Welker and Edelman were the same? All I said was that Edelman could play the slot if Welker was traded. Then, the Pats could acquire an outside WR to stretch the field and open things up.

Price? Great question. What says that Price is the answer? Do you want to head into the regular season and find out he isnt ready or sign a proven FA? Should the Pats gamble another season away with Brady in his prime?

Edleman had a bad 2nd year. 7 receptions for 86 yards. He dropped catch able balls and Brady didnt look his way afterward.

 

[DaBruinz]

You need to read better.

Where did I say that Welker and Edelman were the same? All I said was that Edelman could play the slot if Welker was traded. Then, the Pats could acquire an outside WR to stretch the field and open things up.

Price? Great question. What says that Price is the answer? Do you want to head into the regular season and find out he isnt ready or sign a proven FA? Should the Pats gamble another season away with Brady in his prime?

Edleman had a bad 2nd year. 7 receptions for 86 yards. He dropped catch able balls and Brady didnt look his way afterward.

I read just fine. You are the problem. You mis-read Andy's post. Plain and simple. And Andy's point stands. Just because they play the same position doesn't make them the same player. Edelman has more straight-line game speed while Welker has more in-game quickness.

As for Price. At some point you have to use the young kids unless your an ignorant moron who likes to waste money. And it's not a gamble when the Pats have Welker and Branch ahead of Price. Clearly you fail to understand that. OH and it's not like Price is in his 4th or 5th year or something. He's gonna be a sophomore. Heaven forbid the Pats give a 2nd year player a chance..

And, Brady contradicts your synopsis. I'll take him saying that the Pats didn't use Edelman enough because of the focus on more 2 TE sets over Multi-WR sets. I think that most everyone will take his word over your simplistic synopsis any day.

YOU are saying let's trade Welker and go with Edelman in the slot though he (in your words) had a bad year and go with an Unknown Free Agent as well.. That makes NO F'in sense at all because you just hurt yourself at TWO spots instead of one if the FA doesn't live up to expectations.

P.S. No where did I say you claimed that Welker and Edelman were the same. But you clearly didn't understand Andy's retort to your idea that Edelman could replace Welker. Go back and read his comparison of Brady to Hoyer and how he made it analogous to Welker to Edelman. You might learn something.

 

[Sciz]

To put it simply, Welker and the 2TE offense don't mix. I'm going to split everything into two categories: 0/1 TEs, and 2/3 TEs.

Tom Brady
0/1: 230/365, 63%, 2736 yds, 7.5 YPA, 23 TDs, 3 INT, 6.3 TD%, .8 INT%
2/3: 94/127, 74%, 1164 yds, 9.2 YPA, 13 TDs, 1 INT, 10.2 TD%, .8 INT%

Wes Welker:
0/1: 72 Rec, 689 Yds, 7 TDs
2/3: 14 Rec, 159 Yds, 0 TDs

Welker's stats as a percentage of Brady's:
0/1: 31% of Completions, 25% of Yards, 30% of TDs
2/3: 15% of Completions, 14% of Yards, 0% of TDs

So basically, Brady turns into Super Brady when there are 2 or 3 TEs on the field, but Welker is about half as productive. The solution? You run a 2 TE set, but replace Welker with a different receiver, one that is better in 2TE sets. I won't give the exact numbers as to avoid making this an extremely long post, but Branch jumped went from 13 to 21% in completions, and 16 to 23% in yards when going from 0/1 to 2/3 TEs. Take out his two blown coverage TDs (59 and 79 yards), and he goes from 11 to 23% in yards. Now, Branch isn't doing being productive in a 2TE offense with streaks or posts, or the short in/out option routes. He's doing it with the intermediate routes, the digs, comebacks, and curls. That's the same type of thing that Chad Johnson would do here, and I expect that he'd have awfully similar success, if not a little more.



tl;dr version:
Brady is god with 2 TEs
Welker is half as productive with 2 TEs
Branch is 1.5 to 2x as productive with 2 TEs
Chad Johnson is very similar to Branch, but quite possibly better

 

[Joker]

hey Sciz...reflexblue is right about water not always being wet.

the transition water molecule between liquid stage and vapor stage is not wet.

scientific fact...

 

[NSPF]

To put it simply, Welker and the 2TE offense don't mix. I'm going to split everything into two categories: 0/1 TEs, and 2/3 TEs.

Tom Brady
0/1: 230/365, 63%, 2736 yds, 7.5 YPA, 23 TDs, 3 INT, 6.3 TD%, .8 INT%
2/3: 94/127, 74%, 1164 yds, 9.2 YPA, 13 TDs, 1 INT, 10.2 TD%, .8 INT%

Wes Welker:
0/1: 72 Rec, 689 Yds, 7 TDs
2/3: 14 Rec, 159 Yds, 0 TDs

Welker's stats as a percentage of Brady's:
0/1: 31% of Completions, 25% of Yards, 30% of TDs
2/3: 15% of Completions, 14% of Yards, 0% of TDs

So basically, Brady turns into Super Brady when there are 2 or 3 TEs on the field, but Welker is about half as productive. The solution? You run a 2 TE set, but replace Welker with a different receiver, one that is better in 2TE sets. I won't give the exact numbers as to avoid making this an extremely long post, but Branch jumped went from 13 to 21% in completions, and 16 to 23% in yards when going from 0/1 to 2/3 TEs. Take out his two blown coverage TDs (59 and 79 yards), and he goes from 11 to 23% in yards. Now, Branch isn't doing being productive in a 2TE offense with streaks or posts, or the short in/out option routes. He's doing it with the intermediate routes, the digs, comebacks, and curls. That's the same type of thing that Chad Johnson would do here, and I expect that he'd have awfully similar success, if not a little more.



tl;dr version:
Brady is god with 2 TEs
Welker is half as productive with 2 TEs
Branch is 1.5 to 2x as productive with 2 TEs
Chad Johnson is very similar to Branch, but quite possibly better

Wow, those are really interesting stats! Great post! This is definitely the best argument I've heard so far for getting Chad Whateverhislastnameisnow. The guy really wants to play for the Pats!

 

[ctpatsfan77]

To put it simply, Welker and the 2TE offense don't mix. I'm going to split everything into two categories: 0/1 TEs, and 2/3 TEs.

Devil's advocate:

(1) I don't think it's 2TE/3TE so much as specifically GRONK and Hernandez (in 0/1 sets, Welker's almost always either the best option or the second-best; with GRONK and Hernandez both on the field, that may not be true).
(2) Alternate explanation: what percentage of the time do the Pats run/pass when there are 2TE/3TE on the field? If teams are flooding the underneath routes with defenders against the run, it makes it harder for Welker to do what he does best.
(3) How often was Welker on the field in 2/3 TE sets? Also remember that teams were focusing on Welker more after the Pats dumped Moss.

 

[strngplyr]

I didn't read the whole thread but I don't know if anyone talked about the possibility of having all our WR's active on game day this season. Game Day roster is 46 now instead of 45, mostly so the 3rd QB could be active but we only carry 2 each season normally. I'd much rather keep Hoyer or Mallet inactive and let Price show us what he has in meaningful games. He looked pretty good in Week 17 to me.

 

[supafly]

I didn't read the whole thread but I don't know if anyone talked about the possibility of having all our WR's active on game day this season. Game Day roster is 46 now instead of 45, mostly so the 3rd QB could be active but we only carry 2 each season normally. I'd much rather keep Hoyer or Mallet inactive and let Price show us what he has in meaningful games. He looked pretty good in Week 17 to me.

Price will surely get his chance this yr to show us something. I think he had a red-shirted yr to become better acquainted with the system, and will have his chance--at least at times.

I also believe that if a situation occurs where there is an injury or Tate is not proving himself, he could quickly get a lot more time than we even think.

One way or another, I think we'll get a much better look at Taylor Price.

 

[Triumph]

I read just fine. You are the problem. You mis-read Andy's post. Plain and simple. And Andy's point stands. Just because they play the same position doesn't make them the same player. Edelman has more straight-line game speed while Welker has more in-game quickness.

I did not read anything wrong and knew exactly what he meant.

I never said that Welker and Edelman were the same player. I said they do the same job. Big deal, they do and no where has BB said that the NE slot WR has to have 100 receptions per season and be the focal point of the Pats offense.

As for Price. At some point you have to use the young kids unless your an ignorant moron who likes to waste money. And it's not a gamble when the Pats have Welker and Branch ahead of Price. Clearly you fail to understand that. OH and it's not like Price is in his 4th or 5th year or something. He's gonna be a sophomore. Heaven forbid the Pats give a 2nd year player a chance..

Classic. Its youre unless "your" a moron.

Clearly you dont get what happened in the Jets game.

And, Brady contradicts your synopsis. I'll take him saying that the Pats didn't use Edelman enough because of the focus on more 2 TE sets over Multi-WR sets. I think that most everyone will take his word over your simplistic synopsis any day.

Brady is not to going to throw anybody under the bus, He never has.

Its true, Edelman dropped balls his way and Brady lost confidence in him regardless of what tale you wont to spin. Also, youre so gung ho on playing Price, but do not want to hand the slot over to a 3rd year guy in Edelman contradicts your argument.

YOU are saying let's trade Welker and go with Edelman in the slot though he (in your words) had a bad year and go with an Unknown Free Agent as well.. That makes NO F'in sense at all because you just hurt yourself at TWO spots instead of one if the FA doesn't live up to expectations.

Youre are saying lets keep it the same last last season. Opposing defenses wont copy the Jets game plan and try to do the same. Taylor Price looks ready in a shortened off season.

P.S. No where did I say you claimed that Welker and Edelman were the same. But you clearly didn't understand Andy's retort to your idea that Edelman could replace Welker. Go back and read his comparison of Brady to Hoyer and how he made it analogous to Welker to Edelman. You might learn something.

Edelman could replace Welker. No where did I say that the slot production would be identical.

Thats and argument you two Homers are trying to say that I made.

I later posted to Superfly that we could see entirely different NE offense this season based of what happened vs the Jets and the Pats draft. BB replaced Seymour with an unproven player. Maroney was replaced with BJGE. Bledsoe was replaced with Brady. Throughout BBs tenure in NE, he has shown that hes not afraid to rock the boat and make a controversial move and then bring a player NE has developed to the starting line up.

Go back and look. You might learn something about how he operates.

 

[JMarr]

I think there's a good chance that Randy Moss becomes a Patriot again before the end of TC. I don't care if he can't go over the middle or out muscle CBs--if he can still stretch the field and remain a real deep threat for Brady, bring him in. I don't even want to see Taylor Price or Brandon Tate lining up for go routes.

Moss doesn't need money, he needs a ring. He needs Brady. He needs Belichick. He needs and wants to be in NE, so we're talking about a huge hometown discount.

Condolences to the Kraft family, but if BB wants to take a flyer on Moss, and Robert (or more likely Jonathan) vetoes a Moss signing because of any slights Moss may have caused at his PC last year or at the Raytheon banquet, then they aren't acting in the best interests of their team.

 

[DaBruinz]

I did not read anything wrong and knew exactly what he meant.

I never said that Welker and Edelman were the same player. I said they do the same job. Big deal, they do and no where has BB said that the NE slot WR has to have 100 receptions per season and be the focal point of the Pats offense.

That is the point you missed. Just because they "do the same job" doesn't mean that they command the same respect or even do it close to the same level. Fact is, going to Edelman over Welker is a downgrade as this point. And a significant one. THAT was Andy's point. One you clearly missed.

Classic. Its youre unless "your" a moron.

Clearly you dont get what happened in the Jets game.

Another perfect example of you being incapable of actually reading since I didn't call YOU the moron.

As for the your vs you're, when you have to worry about my spelling and not your own (see below), then you clearly have lost the argument.

Brady is not to going to throw anybody under the bus, He never has.

Its true, Edelman dropped balls his way and Brady lost confidence in him regardless of what tale you wont to spin. Also, youre so gung ho on playing Price, but do not want to hand the slot over to a 3rd year guy in Edelman contradicts your argument.

Edelman was a target 14 times. Compared to 54. That lends itself to my argument, not yours. How many of those 14 targets resulted in an actual drop?

Since you have trouble reading, I said that Price will EARN his way. On top of that, putting Price in and putting Branch on the bench with Welker still on the field for the Pats hardly doing what you are suggesting.

(btw, the word you were looking for is want, not wont)

Youre are saying lets keep it the same last last season. Opposing defenses wont copy the Jets game plan and try to do the same. Taylor Price looks ready in a shortened off season.

No. What I am saying is lets see how Price has progressed because he looked damn good in the one game he actually got a chance. After spending the off-season working out with guys like Edelman, Brady, and Welker, Price should be able to step in and be a bigger part of the offense.

Also, just by virtue that Welker's had a full year to recover from his ACL/MCL tear will make him a better player.

Edelman could replace Welker. No where did I say that the slot production would be identical.

Thats and argument you two Homers are trying to say that I made.

*sigh* Clearly the dawn hasn't broken over your marble head.

Edelman < Welker the same way that Hoyer < Brady. You're saying to remove Welker AND add someone who doesn't know the offense and would have to learn in a month vs. letting Price show what he has..

I later posted to Superfly that we could see entirely different NE offense this season based of what happened vs the Jets and the Pats draft. BB replaced Seymour with an unproven player. Maroney was replaced with BJGE. Bledsoe was replaced with Brady. Throughout BBs tenure in NE, he has shown that hes not afraid to rock the boat and make a controversial move and then bring a player NE has developed to the starting line up.

Go back and look. You might learn something about how he operates.

I know how BB operates, thank you. I don't need someone like yourself telling me to go learn when you are clearly the one who has issues with reading and understanding what others are saying.

As for your little attempts at trying to show that BB will "shake things up", BJGE and Brady both EARNED their way into the line-up. That is what YOU seem to miss. Seymour was removed because BB clearly felt that keeping him wasn't worth the hassle. It had nothing to do with another player.

(btw, his handle is Supafly, not SUPERFLY.)

 

[makoute]

I was thinking the same thing.

Welker and Edelman do the same job. How much is Welker worth in a trade? I dont believe Price would get the axe in year 2, but anything is possible.

One big problem, Edelman can't seem to stay on the field.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Lost in the noise of back and forth is that Edelperson spent a fair amount of time working out with TFB in California this off season. Obviously he needed to win some respect and confidence from Tom given 2010 dropsies Let's see what happens with Julian this season.

 

[Rob0729]

I think Chad OchoCinco will ultimately be added. He gives the Pats a deep threat. He will come cheap. He loves Belichick and Belichick loves him. I don't think the Pats will add a high priced WR free agent like Rice or Floyd. I think he will go for value.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I didn't read the whole thread but I don't know if anyone talked about the possibility of having all our WR's active on game day this season. Game Day roster is 46 now instead of 45, mostly so the 3rd QB could be active but we only carry 2 each season normally. I'd much rather keep Hoyer or Mallet inactive and let Price show us what he has in meaningful games. He looked pretty good in Week 17 to me.

My guess is that the Pats will start with two QBs, and move to three later in the season =, especially if/when Brady starts to get dinged up a bit and Mallett is ready for showtime.

 

[37Harrison]

Go get Santonio Holmes from the Jests! That will leave them with Edwards and ????

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

My guess is that the Pats will start with two QBs, and move to three later in the season =, especially if/when Brady starts to get dinged up a bit and Mallett is ready for showtime.

NFW they cut Hoyer who has shown he can play without destroying the chances to win. Regardless of Mallett's upside he's not ready to sub in fall 2011.

EDIT: Disregard. Missed that you were talking actives. DUH!!!