Will the Colts like living without a salary cap?

[coltsfan]

This time last year, everyone thought the Dolphins and Ravens would be easy wins and that the Seahawks would be a tough challenge. It is impossible at this point and try to pick what teams will be the doormats of the NFL.

The Colts showed a lot of cracks in the armor last year and were good/lucky enough to capitalize on other teams mistakes and win games they had no business winning (Sage Rosenfels giftwrapping a game, a defensive TD vs. the lowly Browns when Manning and the offense could only muster 3 points all game). Teams can't win those type of games year after year. Unless the Colts improve over last year, there is a good chance they lose those type of games this year.

Looking at their games last year, there are about 7 games that the Colts could have lost or should have lost if a play or two went the other direction. If they decline from last year, they are going to lose some or most of those types of games.

The Colts seem to be declining eventhough their record last year didn't show that. They were a weak playoff team last year and showed it by getting beaten by another weak playoff team in San Deigo. They could improve, but they may also take rapid decline if Caldwell is not anywhere near the coach as Dungy. Everyone thinks the Pats could win as long as they had a healthy Brady, but what if you took Belichick out of the equation? Dungy is not as good as Belichick, but he is no slouch.

Cracks in the armor? Are you talking about our pathetic run defense? It's been awful every single year, so that's a crack that showed up 10 years ago.

Offensively, we were awesome in the second half of the season once Peyton returned to health, and they finally moved Gonzo from outside into the slot. Most of those games we were terrible in were at the start of the season. The Browns game wasn't nearly as bad offensively as people who didn't watch it say. Our offense was just hardly ever on the field, and we got stopped at the goalline when we were (Again, a crack in the armor we've always had, which unfortunately, Pats fans have benefitted from).

The Colts were not a weak playoff team, and neither were the Chargers. The Colts were playing as well as any team in the NFL by the end of the season. We just got a tough draw on the road at night against a talented team, and they beat us. We likely would have won the NFC if we would have been in that conference. The Colts and Chargers were both better than any team in the NFC IMO.

Pointing out the loss of Dungy is a fair point, bc he was a good coach. But otherwise, why would people talk of the Colts possibly declining, but not the Patriots? We have a whopping 4 players on our entire roster that are over the age of 30!! One is the long snapper, one is Vinatieri, and then there is Peyton and Saturday.

Both of those guys are coming off injuries. Saturday can't possibly play as poorly as he did last year coming back from his knee injury. If he does, then he is a declining player. Still, only one guy. And Peyton will be better off and back to normal this year.

We will replace Marvin Harrison with a younger guy who is ready to step in, likely in the first round. Marvin was clearly on the downside of his career, as you can see by his lack of interest in free agency. We will likely add a DT in the second or third round of the draft. Even if we don't, we'll be better off just bc Antonio Johnson and Muir will be on our roster to start the year, which they weren't last year bc we were counting on Pit**** and Johnson.

We'll be better at LB bc Session will move to his natural WLB spot now that the mediocre Keiaho isn't being brought back. We'll be better on the OL now that Pollak, Richard, Johnson, and Ugoh have more experience. We'll be better at TE bc Robinson, Tamme, and Santi will be in their second seasons.

The Colts always seem to be at their best when noone expects it. We were thought to be declining two offseasons ago after we won the Superbowl bc we lost the likes of Tarik Glenn, Cato June, Jason David, and Nick Harper. But then, we started the next year 8-0 and had you guys beat for 3 quarters in the epic duel in the RCA Dome. So I'm pretty confident with where we are, and that we aren't "declining".

 

[Steve Zabel]

All this talk about uncapped years has me wondering how our would be rivals, the Indianapolis Colts, will deal with one or more uncapped seasons.

I've long been of the opinion that the Colt's backloaded contracts have created an untenable cap situation for them. [In honor of my analysis, Ryan the Colts fan has volunteered to donate to Miguel's favorite charity after the 2009 season (unless by some miracle the Colts win two playoff games)]

With Dungy gone, I think they are likely to continue their slide towards mediocrity whether or not there is a cap in 2010. They are unlikely to be able to gain a significant advantage by overspending, but they are also unlikely to dump salary (as other teams with limited revenues will be inclined to do) due to their local political situation.

Don't we say that every year?

 

[Synovia]

In 2009 some of those negative effects start to hit.

Marvin Harrison will count as $7.4M against the cap, but he will not play a game.
Peyton counts as $21.2M against the cap.
Dallas Clark costs $13.9M
Dwight Freeney costs $11.2M
Reggie Wayne: $7.4M
Bob Sanders: $7.2M
Robert Mathins: $6.9M

I assume that some of this has been or will be restructured, but has not yet been reflected on the Colt's salary cap page.

Honestly, an uncapped year may be the best thing for the colts, if it allows them to get some of the pushed back cap hits off the books.


Remember, all of this bonus money has already been paid. Its just accounting at this point.

 

[solman]

Don't we say that every year?

I already put my money where my mouth is.

If the Colts win more than 2 playoff games in 2007,2008 and 2009 OR in 2008,2009, 2010, I'll be donating money to Miguel's charity in honor of their success.

Otherwise, others will be donating in honor of the Colt's ineptitude.

 

[solman]

Honestly, an uncapped year may be the best thing for the colts, if it allows them to get some of the pushed back cap hits off the books.


Remember, all of this bonus money has already been paid. Its just accounting at this point.

Yeah, I think that was the point in starting this thread.

Ridding themselves of massively backloaded contracts will help the Colts.

Hailing from a low revenue market will hurt the Colts.

On balance, will an uncapped year be good or bad for them?

At this point I'm also leaning in favor of it being good; primarily because the sweetheart deal on the new stadium will oblige them to spend aggressively (relative to their revenues).

 

[Synovia]

Yeah, I think that was the point in starting this thread.

Ridding themselves of massively backloaded contracts will help the Colts.

Hailing from a low revenue market will hurt the Colts.

On balance, will an uncapped year be good or bad for them?

At this point I'm also leaning in favor of it being good; primarily because the sweetheart deal on the new stadium will oblige them to spend aggressively (relative to their revenues).

Not to mention, the Colts have never really been active in FA. They'll just keep drafting well and extending players. The negative won't really hurt them.


Dont forget, the revenue sharing amount covers a huge chunk of the salary floor at this point. I don't think the CBA going away breaks the revenue sharing between teams, does it?

 

[solman]

Not to mention, the Colts have never really been active in FA. They'll just keep drafting well and extending players. The negative won't really hurt them.


Dont forget, the revenue sharing amount covers a huge chunk of the salary floor at this point. I don't think the CBA going away breaks the revenue sharing between teams, does it?

Revenue sharing from the television contract won't go away. But if the labor dispute gets really bad, the players can decertify the union and attack revenue sharing on several grounds including antitrust. Although such a suit would greatly limit the owners, I don't think its obvious that NO form of revenue sharing could survive. Certainly there is enough uncertainty to permit a lengthy legal case.

 

[spacecrime]

Sound like you are desparately trying to convince yourself of something you don't really believe.

Do you also whistle in the dark so you don't be afraid when the wind rustles the trees?

Cracks in the armor? Are you talking about our pathetic run defense? It's been awful every single year, so that's a crack that showed up 10 years ago.

Offensively, we were awesome in the second half of the season once Peyton returned to health, and they finally moved Gonzo from outside into the slot. Most of those games we were terrible in were at the start of the season. The Browns game wasn't nearly as bad offensively as people who didn't watch it say. Our offense was just hardly ever on the field, and we got stopped at the goalline when we were (Again, a crack in the armor we've always had, which unfortunately, Pats fans have benefitted from).

The Colts were not a weak playoff team, and neither were the Chargers. The Colts were playing as well as any team in the NFL by the end of the season. We just got a tough draw on the road at night against a talented team, and they beat us. We likely would have won the NFC if we would have been in that conference. The Colts and Chargers were both better than any team in the NFC IMO.

Pointing out the loss of Dungy is a fair point, bc he was a good coach. But otherwise, why would people talk of the Colts possibly declining, but not the Patriots? We have a whopping 4 players on our entire roster that are over the age of 30!! One is the long snapper, one is Vinatieri, and then there is Peyton and Saturday.

Both of those guys are coming off injuries. Saturday can't possibly play as poorly as he did last year coming back from his knee injury. If he does, then he is a declining player. Still, only one guy. And Peyton will be better off and back to normal this year.

We will replace Marvin Harrison with a younger guy who is ready to step in, likely in the first round. Marvin was clearly on the downside of his career, as you can see by his lack of interest in free agency. We will likely add a DT in the second or third round of the draft. Even if we don't, we'll be better off just bc Antonio Johnson and Muir will be on our roster to start the year, which they weren't last year bc we were counting on Pit**** and Johnson.

We'll be better at LB bc Session will move to his natural WLB spot now that the mediocre Keiaho isn't being brought back. We'll be better on the OL now that Pollak, Richard, Johnson, and Ugoh have more experience. We'll be better at TE bc Robinson, Tamme, and Santi will be in their second seasons.

The Colts always seem to be at their best when noone expects it. We were thought to be declining two offseasons ago after we won the Superbowl bc we lost the likes of Tarik Glenn, Cato June, Jason David, and Nick Harper. But then, we started the next year 8-0 and had you guys beat for 3 quarters in the epic duel in the RCA Dome. So I'm pretty confident with where we are, and that we aren't "declining".

Well, 12-4 ain't bad at all. It would be great to win the SB, but only one team wins that. Everyone else goes home unhappy. But we had a great season IMO considering how lousy we started with Peyton's injury, Pit****'s "retirement", and Ed Johnson getting kicked off the team for smoking pot. We looked god awful the first few games, but got it turned around and were one of the best teams in the league by the end. We just got stuck with a tough matchup in the playoffs on the road, at night, against a talented team.

I agree that Dungy was good. We'll have to see if he will be missed or not. He was definitely a good defensive coach who got us ready to play on that side in big games. We'll see what Coyer can bring.

Who is "over-compensated"? We hear that every year from you guys. We heard it on Freeney, and then a lesser player in Jared Allen gets a bigger deal the next year, and then Haynesworth the year after that. Freeney is the best pass rusher in football, so he deserved that (Spare me the statistics, he dominates with a couple of jokes lined up next to him at DT, and faces FAR more double teams than guys like Ware and Allen bc of it. The last and only OT that has stopped him without help was when Orlando Pace was in his prime 3 years ago.).

Hayden got the same deals that Corey Webster and Chris Gamble got, and that Domique freakin' Foxworth got from the Ravens. Mathis is one of the few guys that Polian made an effort to sign before he hit unrestricted free agency, and is actually a good deal for the Colts bc of it. Saturday only signed for $4M a year. Sanders is the only one that can really be argued is being overpaid, and that's bc he gets hurt so much.

 

[Synovia]

We heard it on Freeney, and then a lesser player in Jared Allen gets a bigger deal the next year, and then Haynesworth the year after that. Freeney is the best pass rusher in football, so he deserved that

Freeney may very well be the best pass rusher in football, but Jared Allen is a better DE. Freeney is an absolute liability against the Run.

 

[Patsrock]

The owners have announced their intention to hold a 2011 draft, even if there is no CBA.

The owners will very likely lock out the players before playing 2011 in the absence of a CBA. The precise timing of this, whether the players are forced to strike preemptively, whether the union is decertified, and a whole bunch of other fun issues are the province of labor lawyers.

In my opinion, there is a very real possibility (~30%) that the CBA has not been completed before the 2011 draft takes place, but very little chance that actual televised games get canceled.

In reading the CBA, I do not believe the owners will lockout the players before 2011(it would actually violate the CBA since it does goes thru the 2011 season). If I am reading the CBA right in Article IV it says there can be no strike/lockout for the duration of the CBA.

http://www.nflplayers.com/images/fck/NFL COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENT 2006 - 2012.pdf

 

[solman]

In reading the CBA, I do not believe the owners will lockout the players before 2011(it would actually violate the CBA since it does goes thru the 2011 season). If I am reading the CBA right in Article IV it says there can be no strike/lockout for the duration of the CBA.

http://www.nflplayers.com/images/fck/NFL COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENT 2006 - 2012.pdf

As far as a lockout during the CBA goes, you are correct.

But the CBA expires at the end of the 2010 league year, at which point, both the owners and the union can strike.

See article LVIII section 3(a) of the CBA.

 

[Patsrock]

As far as a lockout during the CBA goes, you are correct.

But the CBA expires at the end of the 2010 league year, at which point, both the owners and the union can strike.

See article LVIII section 3(a) of the CBA.

Totally forgot that the owners opted out for 2011.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I wouldn't say Freeney is the best pass rusher in the NFL, let alone the best DE.

That said: the Colts' 2008 season wasn't a fluke. Peyton was less than 100% for a large part of the season, and they finished 12-4 anyways. Were a lot of the wins bizarre, come-from-behind affairs? Sure, but when did Pats fans start caring about that? When the Pats won 3 SBs by a combined 9 points, remember how annoying it was to hear people talk about how maybe they won, but they didn't really win? Well, congrats guys, that's what you sound like right now.

12-4 is 12-4, and that's a damn good record (11-5 is awfully good too, but that's a whole different story...). Sure, they lost in the playoffs, but so did the Pats every year between 2005 and 2007. Doesn't make either team a bad team: just means that there are other teams out there trying to win it all too, and sometimes they actually outplay you.

 

[coltsfan]

Yeah, I think that was the point in starting this thread.

Ridding themselves of massively backloaded contracts will help the Colts.

FYI, Dallas Clark's cap number is no longer $13.9M, it is now $6.78M. That $13.9M was always artificially inflated due to a $8.2M roster bonus. The majority of that roster bonus was prorated into a signing bonus.

Anyway, who are these massively backloaded contracts that the Colts would get rid of? They aren't going to release Clark as long as he stays healthy. You may think Sanders bc he's always hurt, but we actually got screwed on his cap number this year bc we were unable to prorate his $5M roster bonus due to the 30% rule. His cap number actually goes way down from $7.2 in 2009 to $3.9M in 2010 bc of it. So this prospect of the uncapped year has actually hurt us there this year.

The uncapped year has also possibly hurt us with Peyton's contract. I'm thinking that there's a chance that we would have extended his contract this offseason if not for that, and how it affects bonus prorations. His $21.2 cap number this year is the highest it will ever be, and it could be much lower than that if they gave him a lifetime extension. He only has 2 years left on his deal, so that's why it would make sense. Plus, again, his cap number goes down next year. Mathis and Diem's cap numbers also go down.

So while the Colts are up against the cap this year due to a variety of reasons, it looks to me like next year we will be in much better cap shape than this year.

 

[coltsfan]

Sound like you are desparately trying to convince yourself of something you don't really believe.

Do you also whistle in the dark so you don't be afraid when the wind rustles the trees?

Tell me where I'm wrong, and then we can talk.

 

[coltsfan]

Freeney is an absolute liability against the Run.

That's a huge exaggeration. He's probably the only guy in our front seven over the last decade that doesn't get blown off the ball against the run. He's really strong and is fine there. Not an asset against the run, but that's not what he's asked to do.

 

[Shockt327]

FYI, Dallas Clark's cap number is no longer $13.9M, it is now $6.78M. That $13.9M was always artificially inflated due to a $8.2M roster bonus. The majority of that roster bonus was prorated into a signing bonus.

Anyway, who are these massively backloaded contracts that the Colts would get rid of? They aren't going to release Clark as long as he stays healthy. You may think Sanders bc he's always hurt, but we actually got screwed on his cap number this year bc we were unable to prorate his $5M roster bonus due to the 30% rule. His cap number actually goes way down from $7.2 in 2009 to $3.9M in 2010 bc of it. So this prospect of the uncapped year has actually hurt us there this year.

The uncapped year has also possibly hurt us with Peyton's contract. I'm thinking that there's a chance that we would have extended his contract this offseason if not for that, and how it affects bonus prorations. His $21.2 cap number this year is the highest it will ever be, and it could be much lower than that if they gave him a lifetime extension. He only has 2 years left on his deal, so that's why it would make sense. Plus, again, his cap number goes down next year. Mathis and Diem's cap numbers also go down.

So while the Colts are up against the cap this year due to a variety of reasons, it looks to me like next year we will be in much better cap shape than this year.

Everyone is in much better cap shape next year - because there is no cap.

Essentially, your team's cap situation is backwards. You want to be low on spending this year, and high on spending next year - when it doesn't count. There isn't as much value in saving money in 2010; mainly because saving money won't lead to added FA signings. The added restrictions on Free Agents (extra tender), and the rule of 8, etc, makes things harder.

 

[coltsfan]

Everyone is in much better cap shape next year - because there is no cap.

Essentially, your team's cap situation is backwards. You want to be low on spending this year, and high on spending next year - when it doesn't count. There isn't as much value in saving money in 2010; mainly because saving money won't lead to added FA signings. The added restrictions on Free Agents (extra tender), and the rule of 8, etc, makes things harder.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. The posters in this thread were saying how this uncapped year could help us 'clean up our cap situation'. But bc of how Sanders, Manning, Mathis, and Diem's contracts seemed to be structured; the Colts seem to actually be in much better cap shape in 2010 than in 2009. So let's hope they get this CBA deal done!

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. The posters in this thread were saying how this uncapped year could help us 'clean up our cap situation'. But bc of how Sanders, Manning, Mathis, and Diem's contracts seemed to be structured; the Colts seem to actually be in much better cap shape in 2010 than in 2009. So let's hope they get this CBA deal done!

Unless something bad happens, there WILL be a cap next year. People need to stop making assumptions. Wait till next December, you'll see.

I wasnt really addressing you coltfan, just everybody who keeps mentioning this whole "uncapped" thing.