Will BB attempt to fix the pass rush?

[Kontradiction]

Re: Will BB attempt to fix the passrush?

Greetings,
I tried to tell some people on this board these points a few times, but was met with many counter-arguments like those points did not matter. I guess with many people sacks are sexy because they are numbers. I even brought up how the Pats finished second in sacks in 2007, but many people acted is if it was a worthless fact. Now I am not going to sit up here and act like this team does not need an upgrade with the pass rush, but some people think that is the ONLY area that needs improvement.
Shalom,
Celticboy04

A nice improvement at DE is priority #1 IMO. Someone that takes up two blockers and can stuff the run (the usual for a capable 3-4 DE). I do agree that OLB is most definitely a need though.

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Will BB attempt to fix the passrush?

A nice improvement at DE is priority #1 IMO. Someone that takes up two blockers and can stuff the run (the usual for a capable 3-4 DE). I do agree that OLB is most definitely a need though.

A player at either of those positions that can get pressure on the QB should be our top priority no matter what position he plays.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: Will BB attempt to fix the passrush?

A player at either of those positions that can get pressure on the QB should be our top priority no matter what position he plays.

DE's in our system aren't typically dominant pass rushers (with the exception of 2008 when Seymour finished with 8.0 sacks). Instead, they do the job of engulfing two blockers while the OLB, if called on, can come in to apply pressure on the quarterback. If we can get a DE that just does his job, the way Seymour did, it would be a great pick. Case in point: imagine what TBC and/or AD could have done this season with a Seymour type DE (instead of Jarvis Green) in front of them.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Will BB attempt to fix the passrush?

Greetings,
I tried to tell some people on this board these points a few times, but was met with many counter-arguments like those points did not matter. I guess with many people sacks are sexy because they are numbers. I even brought up how the Pats finished second in sacks in 2007, but many people acted is if it was a worthless fact. Now I am not going to sit up here and act like this team does not need an upgrade with the pass rush, but some people think that is the ONLY area that needs improvement.
Shalom,
Celticboy04

Sacks are a funny stat. They can be indicative of a team's overall pass rush, the way they were for the 2007 team, or they can just be isolated events of pressure, the way they were for much of this season. A lot of the difference comes from how the sacks were gotten, and from what else happens besides the sacks. In 2007, and 2008, the Patriots were able to get pressure up the middle to collapse the pocket, so the sacks were more legitimate measures of what the team was doing. Unfortunately for the 2008 team, most of the pressure was up the middle, but QBs weren't really harried from the sides, meaning pressure was limited far more than in 2007. 2009 saw the opposite happening, with almost no pressure up the middle, but more harrying from the sides. As I think the passing numbers against the better teams demonstrated, consistent pressure up the middle is far superior to occasional pressure off the edge.

I don't see a Seymour in this next draft, and even if I'm wrong about that, he'll only be a rookie, so I expect that quarterbacks will still tend to have a nice, safe pocket in front of them, even if the team gets better at bringing pressure off the edge. Unless this team starts blitzing the "A" gaps successfully, I expect the Mannings of the league to continue feeling confident in the pocket against the Patriots.

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Will BB attempt to fix the passrush?

DE's in our system aren't typically dominant pass rushers (with the exception of 2008 when Seymour finished with 8.0 sacks). Instead, they do the job of engulfing two blockers while the OLB, if called on, can come in to apply pressure on the quarterback. If we can get a DE that just does his job, the way Seymour did, it would be a great pick. Case in point: imagine what TBC and/or AD could have done this season with a Seymour type DE (instead of Jarvis Green) in front of them.

I see what you're saying, but I still think an OLB that can put pressure on the QB would be the better answer. If the Pats had a threat like that at OLB the opposing teams OL would not have 2 guys on our DE because they need to worry about our threat at OLB. I think Jarvis Green would put up some good numbers if the Pats had a legitimate threat at OLB. With a solid OLB that can put pressure on the QB, he would put up some good numbers as well as our DE like Jarvis Green.

 

[ausbacker]

Re: Will BB attempt to fix the passrush?

Nah, BB is going to let the team deteriorate into degenerate no-hopers and ruin his legacy just to spite a spoilt fan base.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: Will BB attempt to fix the passrush?

I see what you're saying, but I still think an OLB that can put pressure on the QB would be the better answer. If the Pats had a threat like that at OLB the opposing teams OL would not have 2 guys on our DE because they need to worry about our threat at OLB. I think Jarvis Green would put up some good numbers if the Pats had a legitimate threat at OLB. With a solid OLB that can put pressure on the QB, he would put up some good numbers as well as our DE like Jarvis Green.

That's why I like Carlos Dunlap, though I'm not sure that he's going to fall to 22. Pierre-Paul is good too, but Dunlap just reminds me an awful lot of Willie Mac. He can either play OLB in the 3-4 (and still defeat blockers at the point of attack to get to the QB) or he could come down and do the same in a 4-3. I would really like to see him in a Patriot uniform next season.

 

[captain stone]

Re: Will BB attempt to fix the passrush?

The team was 2nd in the NFL in sacks in 2007.

But your post does serve as a reminder that the silly season has begun, so thanks for that.

I don't know for sure, but I bet the 2007 defense wasn't 2nd in the league in sacks/per pass attempt. I find that statistic more revealing than strictly total sacks.

And you're welcome; always glad to be of service.

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Will BB attempt to fix the passrush?

That's why I like Carlos Dunlap, though I'm not sure that he's going to fall to 22. Pierre-Paul is good too, but Dunlap just reminds me an awful lot of Willie Mac. He can either play OLB in the 3-4 (and still defeat blockers at the point of attack to get to the QB) or he could come down and do the same in a 4-3. I would really like to see him in a Patriot uniform next season.

Thats what I was thinking as well, but likewise I dont know if I can see him dropping to 22. If he is there at 22 there is no question BB will take him, if he is there a few picks before the Pats I could see BB moving up a few spots to get him, by giving up very little.

 

[mayoclinic]

Re: Will BB attempt to fix the passrush?

That's why I like Carlos Dunlap, though I'm not sure that he's going to fall to 22. Pierre-Paul is good too, but Dunlap just reminds me an awful lot of Willie Mac. He can either play OLB in the 3-4 (and still defeat blockers at the point of attack to get to the QB) or he could come down and do the same in a 4-3. I would really like to see him in a Patriot uniform next season.

I totally agree. Dunlap could even potentially play Jarvis Green's role in the 3-4 as an undersized pass rushing 3-4 DE, though I don't think that's his forte. But we could move him around and create some havoc. I think after Rolando McClain he's my second favorite disruptor on defense, and I'm praying for him to slip to 22.

The other guy I like a lot is Dan Williams of Tennessee. He's not a pass rusher but he has the ability to play 3-4 NT, 4-3 DT and 3-4 DE. He could be moved around a lot on the line like Baltimore uses Haloti Ngata. I don't see a young Seymour as a pure 3-4 DE, and Williams is the only pure DL that I really like at 22, if Dunlap is gone.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Will BB attempt to fix the passrush?

I don't know for sure, but I bet the 2007 defense wasn't 2nd in the league in sacks/per pass attempt. I find that statistic more revealing than strictly total sacks.

And you're welcome; always glad to be of service.

You find any statistic that you can manipulate into a seeming negative for the Patriots to be "more revealing". It's because you're agenda driven rather than information driven.

 

[mayoclinic]

Re: Will BB attempt to fix the passrush?

Sacks are a funny stat. They can be indicative of a team's overall pass rush, the way they were for the 2007 team, or they can just be isolated events of pressure, the way they were for much of this season. A lot of the difference comes from how the sacks were gotten, and from what else happens besides the sacks. In 2007, and 2008, the Patriots were able to get pressure up the middle to collapse the pocket, so the sacks were more legitimate measures of what the team was doing. Unfortunately for the 2008 team, most of the pressure was up the middle, but QBs weren't really harried from the sides, meaning pressure was limited far more than in 2007. 2009 saw the opposite happening, with almost no pressure up the middle, but more harrying from the sides. As I think the passing numbers against the better teams demonstrated, consistent pressure up the middle is far superior to occasional pressure off the edge.

I don't see a Seymour in this next draft, and even if I'm wrong about that, he'll only be a rookie, so I expect that quarterbacks will still tend to have a nice, safe pocket in front of them, even if the team gets better at bringing pressure off the edge. Unless this team starts blitzing the "A" gaps successfully, I expect the Mannings of the league to continue feeling confident in the pocket against the Patriots.

Great post, Deus. I agree with pretty much everything you say here. I've talked about needing to improve the pass rush, needing to get more aggressive on defense, and needing to generate pressure. Most people interpret that as needing a better outside speed rush, generate more sacks, and blitz more. That's not by any means the same thing. I really don't care so much about the number of sacks we produce as much as getting consistent pressure, limiting the time opposing QBs have to throw, and roughing them up on a consistent basis so that they start to hurry their throws and lose their rhythm. Sacks are just the icing on the cake. And while I like selecting blitzing (especially with our safeties; I think Chung can be devesatating in this role) I don't think that a blitz happy offense is nearly as effective as one where we can generate consistent pressure with our front 7.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you address our lack of pressure up the middle in 2009, resulting in the QB being able to step up in the pocket when pressured from the outside. I think that if we did nothing to address our OLBs and addressed the inside pressure, our defense would be remarkably improved.

I also don't see a Seymour in this draft. I see 2 potentially great 3-4 DE's coming out in 2011 in Cameron Heyward of Ohio St. and Jared Crick of Nebraska, and I think Cameron Jordan of Cal could be a very, very good one. There's also some guys with a lot of potential like Leonard Marsh of Florida. But I see no one close to those guys this year.

A lot of ideas that I've been floating, realistic or not and rightly or wrongly, have been aimed at addressing some of these issues. I'd like to see a true SILB like Karlos Dansby or Rolando McClain who can help to generate pressure up the middle. I think we could do a lot with a guy like Carlos Dunlap, who could be used at 3-4 OLB, 4-3 DE, or even at 3-4 DE some the way we used Jarvis Green, as a slightly undersized but penetrating 3-4 DE. And I think that Dan Williams could help with pressure up the middle given his potential versatility at 3-4 NT, 4-3 DE and 3-4 DE. I see those as the best options to create some pressure up the middle and prevent Manning et al from just stepping up into the pocket, even with an improved outside pass rush.

 

[bigfandan]

Re: Will BB attempt to fix the passrush?

We need a Dweight Freeny or DeMarcus Ware here, asap.

Exactly.

And don't bank on our savior being an OLB 3-4. That position is overrated as a pass-rusher. It might well be a monster DL.

I am watching Pats vs. Colts on NFLN right now and the one thing that keeps striking me is how little pressure they put on Manning. I am now wondering how we lost by just one point.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Will BB attempt to fix the passrush?

Great post, Deus. I agree with pretty much everything you say here. I've talked about needing to improve the pass rush, needing to get more aggressive on defense, and needing to generate pressure. Most people interpret that as needing a better outside speed rush, generate more sacks, and blitz more. That's not by any means the same thing. I really don't care so much about the number of sacks we produce as much as getting consistent pressure, limiting the time opposing QBs have to throw, and roughing them up on a consistent basis so that they start to hurry their throws and lose their rhythm. Sacks are just the icing on the cake. And while I like selecting blitzing (especially with our safeties; I think Chung can be devesatating in this role) I don't think that a blitz happy offense is nearly as effective as one where we can generate consistent pressure with our front 7.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you address our lack of pressure up the middle in 2009, resulting in the QB being able to step up in the pocket when pressured from the outside. I think that if we did nothing to address our OLBs and addressed the inside pressure, our defense would be remarkably improved...

I think most of our disagreement on this issue has come from the 'blame' assessment more than any major difference in approach, because I think we both see the basic problem almost identically. I also think your mention of Chung is significant, because I think that, if the Patriots keep Bodden and Butler improves to a legitimate #1/#2 DB by next season, we could see this team really begin to involve Chung/McGowan/Sanders in the pass rush helping to flood the "A" gaps, while Meriweather hangs back helping the corners and patrolling the middle.

Someone was talking about Cody on this board earlier, and now I'm trying to project whether going to a D-line with Cody and Wilfork both in on 3rd down might not solve some of the inside pressure issues, or at least absorb enough offensive players to really open up significant lanes on the outside. That would be an awful lot of beef for opposing offensive lines to have to deal with, after all. I haven't really worked it over enough to be confident of my answer, but putting Wright on the end along with them would make for an interesting sort of pass rush.

 

[celticboy04]

Re: Will BB attempt to fix the passrush?

A nice improvement at DE is priority #1 IMO. Someone that takes up two blockers and can stuff the run (the usual for a capable 3-4 DE). I do agree that OLB is most definitely a need though.

Greetings,
I agree with everything you said in that post. I also keep hearing from other posters that JUST getting a dominant pass-rushing OLB will make the pass rush better. The 3-4 DE opposite is the biggest need, but it seems to be forgotten. Not by you and a few others though.
Shalom,
Celticboy04

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Will BB attempt to fix the passrush?

Greetings,
I agree with everything you said in that post. I also keep hearing from other posters that JUST getting a dominant pass-rushing OLB will make the pass rush better. The 3-4 DE opposite is the biggest need, but it seems to be forgotten. Not by you and a few others though.
Shalom,
Celticboy04

I think Jarvis Green is capable of this, IMO he is a very underrated player

 

[mayoclinic]

Re: Will BB attempt to fix the passrush?

I also think your mention of Chung is significant, because I think that, if the Patriots keep Bodden and Butler improves to a legitimate #1/#2 DB by next season, we could see this team really begin to involve Chung/McGowan/Sanders in the pass rush helping to flood the "A" gaps, while Meriweather hangs back helping the corners and patrolling the middle.

I've said since the middle of this season that I can see a 3-3-5 or 4-2-5 "big nickel" being a major stable of our defense, using Butler and Bodden at CB and Meriweather, Chung and Sanders/McGowan at safety. I think we could be devestating using two of the safeties as hyrbid LBs and pass rushers to flood the gaps, while keeping Meriweather as a centerfielder and surrogate nickel CB.

If you combined this with an effective front 6, the results could be devestating. Imagine, for example, if we got Terrance Cody or Dan Williams and paired them with Wilfork in the middle of a 4-2-5, using Mayo and Guyton at LB, and a couple of pass rushing DE's on the sides. Or a 3-3-5 if we had a Dansby or McClain along with Mayo and Guyton or McKenzie at LB.

 

[celticboy04]

Re: Will BB attempt to fix the passrush?

I think Jarvis Green is capable of this, IMO he is a very underrated player

Greetings,
I do not know if you are serious or joking with that statement. He looked great, in the past, when asked to fill in at DE. This season was not so much; he looked almost worse than a second string.
Shalom,
Celticboy04

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Will BB attempt to fix the passrush?

Greetings,
I do not know if you are serious or joking with that statement. He looked great, in the past, when asked to fill in at DE. This season was not so much; he looked almost worse than a second string.
Shalom,
Celticboy04

With a strong threat at OLB, Greens numbers will go up. He is only 30 years old, and we saw what he was capable of a few years ago. He can still produce at a high level.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Will BB attempt to fix the passrush?

I've said since the middle of this season that I can see a 3-3-5 or 4-2-5 "big nickel" being a major stable of our defense, using Butler and Bodden at CB and Meriweather, Chung and Sanders/McGowan at safety. I think we could be devestating using two of the safeties as hyrbid LBs and pass rushers to flood the gaps, while keeping Meriweather as a centerfielder and surrogate nickel CB.

If you combined this with an effective front 6, the results could be devestating. Imagine, for example, if we got Terrance Cody or Dan Williams and paired them with Wilfork in the middle of a 4-2-5, using Mayo and Guyton at LB, and a couple of pass rushing DE's on the sides. Or a 3-3-5 if we had a Dansby or McClain along with Mayo and Guyton or McKenzie at LB.

I think Belichick believes that the rules are dictating that the future is a "big nickel" approach, which is why we saw the Tank Williams experiment. I just think that he hasn't really figured out whether he wants an undersized LB for the role or an oversized safety. This might be especially true this year, if the team doesn't get better linebackers, because I think the team might look to Chung as that hybrid player. He's really a bit small for the role but, if the team thinks he can provide the pop, I could see the stretch being made for him if that sort of D-line beef (Cody/Wilfork) were to be available for Belichick.