Wilfork wants Seymour money

[upstater1]

Why talk about the makeup of stars at the top, middle-class of players, then JAGS, when we are going into an uncapped year.

Let's say this again folks: we can have our cake and eat it too. If done right, there are no cap implications to signing our stars.

I refuse to believe that all these important contracts expiring at the same exact time isn't a coincidence.

Belichick has planned this all along.

 

[Synovia]

You're getting caught up in the percentages I used - my point is, you've just drafted a big body who was productive in college - you only have to pay him peanuts over the next four years - don't you want to see what he can do before you shell out huge money to a guy that plays the same position? Whatever the tipping point is - 80%, 95%, it's worth seeing if Brace can perform at that level. What do you lose by doing this? So VW will sulk for a while and miss OTAs, who cares? He will play this year and at a very high level, new contract or not.

Yeah, you do want to see what he can do.


The problem is, Wilfork is an elite talent. Brace has very little chance of being an elite talent. Hes not nearly as agile or quick as Wilfork.


I'd be making the same argument saying we should start O'Connel instead of Brady because hes making peanuts.

Wretch:
I agree 100%. Winning in the salary cap era requires a strong middle class core of players not superstars at 1 or 2 position then JAGS everywhere else(see the Redskins or Cowboys).

This is completely wrong. Winning in the salary cap Era is just as much about maximizing talent as it is maxing the cap. The colts win because of exactly what you're talking about: a couple of elite players (Manning, Freeney, Wayne) and then a bunch of Jags. The patriots have done it (Brady, Seymour, Moss).


You need ELITE players to win, and to keep ELITE players you need to pay them. The key is not paying Elite money to better-than-average players. Thats the mistake that the Redskins make: giving guys who aren't elite, elite money. Thats the move that the Patriots have been so good at avoiding: Letting Law walk, letting McGinnest walk,etc.

 

[letekro]

There is a flipside to that. What if Brace isn't it and Wilfork has one of his best seasons do you think he'll sign here for what he wants now or would $$ go up? If that is the case wouldn't it be prudent to sign him for less now?

Franchise him in 2010. If Brace is truly an abomination, they would have to look to the draft or elsewhere to replace VW in 2011. Meanwhile, you've gotten two productive seasons out of him at reasonable $. BB has weighed all of these scenarios and the results will be revealed in his actions. I'm just saying, if they think Brace can play, they're not going to be falling all over themselves to make VW rich.

 

[letekro]

Yeah, you do want to see what he can do.


The problem is, Wilfork is an elite talent. Brace has very little chance of being an elite talent. Hes not nearly as agile or quick as Wilfork.

No disagreement about VW's ability. However, he is not the best NT of the BB era - that would be Ted Washington. Mount Washington was neither agile nor quick, but he dominated. Not saying Brace can do that, but maybe BB wants to see him in training camp before making a decision on VW.

 

[Synovia]

Franchise him in 2010. If Brace is truly an abomination, they would have to look to the draft or elsewhere to replace VW in 2011. Meanwhile, you've gotten two productive seasons out of him at reasonable $. BB has weighed all of these scenarios and the results will be revealed in his actions. I'm just saying, if they think Brace can play, they're not going to be falling all over themselves to make VW rich.

So, the solution is, let an elite player walk, on the hopes that a guy "isn't an abomination".


If Brace isn't elite, you've made the team significantly worse to save a couple $M. You can't just "look to the draft" to replace elite talent. A guy like Wilfork only comes along every couple years, and very rarely do they get to the sort of spot that the pats can draft.

You don't think theres not a cost to trading up to 5th overall or so to get a Wilfork replacement?

 

[letekro]

So, the solution is, let an elite player walk, on the hopes that a guy "isn't an abomination".


If Brace isn't elite, you've made the team significantly worse to save a couple $M. You can't just "look to the draft" to replace elite talent. A guy like Wilfork only comes along every couple years, and very rarely do they get to the sort of spot that the pats can draft.

You don't think theres not a cost to trading up to 5th overall or so to get a Wilfork replacement?

Brace is huge and was productive in major college football. He will be coached by BB and Pepper Johnson. I think it is clearly a worst case scenario that this guy will be terrible.

Also, VW, Jamal Williams, Casey Hampton, Ted Washington - none of them were top 10 picks, so I don't know why we assume that we have to get a player in the top 5.

 

[bagwell368]

OK, in order to keep big VW w/o any cap stuff, I propose:

$2,840,614.00 - '09 stays the same due to cap issues
$15M in '10 (uncapped to help make up for '09) - 100% no cut/trade
$8M in '11
$8M in '12
$10M in '13
$12M in '14 - last two years have very low cap hits, making it easier to cut him
$12M in '15

On paper including '09 its $67.84M for 7 years

more likely 5 years including '09 for $43.84M + cap hit

If we deal him during camp/pre season (cap hit is $633k, savings $1.737M) then the other team would control him for '09 and '10 unless they can cut a deal, which they will try and do. For a team committed to the 3-4 but with no NT, what's that worth? I figure a #1 and #2 in '10 for a team that figures to finish 20th - 30th in the draft order. If Brace shows well in preseason then its Wright/Brace at NT, and another haul of picks for '10.

 

[Synovia]

Brace is huge and was productive in major college football. He will be coached by BB and Pepper Johnson. I think it is clearly a worst case scenario that this guy will be terrible.

Also, VW, Jamal Williams, Casey Hampton, Ted Washington - none of them were top 10 picks, so I don't know why we assume that we have to get a player in the top 5.

Yes, and none of those guys are as good against the pass as Wilfork. He plays a completely different position than Williams, Hampton etc. The Patriots 3-4 has completely different responsibilities. They also were all drafted in a time when the 3-4 was much less popular, so guys of this type were easier to acquire.


"Brace is huge and was productive in major college football. He will be coached by BB and Pepper Johnson. I think it is clearly a worst case scenario that this guy will be terrible. "

So was Kareem Brown, and a ton of other DTs the Pats have drafted. Brace also played right next to a guy picked in the top 10.

 

[bagwell368]

So, the solution is, let an elite player walk, on the hopes that a guy "isn't an abomination".


If Brace isn't elite, you've made the team significantly worse to save a couple $M. You can't just "look to the draft" to replace elite talent. A guy like Wilfork only comes along every couple years, and very rarely do they get to the sort of spot that the pats can draft.

You don't think theres not a cost to trading up to 5th overall or so to get a Wilfork replacement?

Have you noticed that Wright has been getting a 1/3 of the snaps at NT, and holding his own? What about 2/3 for him, and 1/3 for Brace while he learns his trade?

You get back a 1st and 2nd in a strong draft for Wilfork, and show once again you won't dictated too? Priceless.

 

[condon84]

That is a great idea. I say lets trade Brady, Moss, Welker for picks because everyone is replacable. It worked with Asante's replacement right? Who needs superstars lets just get every JAG available off the street playing here ..Super Bowl here we come.

I mean seriously you got to be choking on cool aid and taking Homerism to a whole new level to think that. You cant just replace players of that caliber. Wilfork is the Brady of our D, Pay the man. I am all for homerism and I trust BB but some of you here have some blind faith.

Either this was a shock post, or you'r just an idiot. My post was a general commentary to say that our system is greater than the individual and you take it like I'm suggesting we get rid of our superstars. Try to follow and don't be an idiot.

 

[bagwell368]

No disagreement about VW's ability. However, he is not the best NT of the BB era - that would be Ted Washington. Mount Washington was neither agile nor quick, but he dominated. Not saying Brace can do that, but maybe BB wants to see him in training camp before making a decision on VW.

I agree, and like Sumo's it takes some time to get the technique and size in place to be top 5, but, again you have been using Wright as the backup NT, and he is no Wilfork, but, can anyone see a drop off? Maybe that's why BB gave him a nifty contract to stay, because he feared Wilfork's contract.

I propose we deal Watson and WIlfork to KC for a #2, #3, #4, and #6.

For one thing, KC will like that deal because Wilfork will take a lot of pressure off of Tyson Jackson, which may make that pick look a lot stronger then it was. ALso the GM has a woody for Watson, and is lacking a TE at the moment.

 

[Synovia]

Have you noticed that Wright has been getting a 1/3 of the snaps at NT, and holding his own? What about 2/3 for him, and 1/3 for Brace while he learns his trade?

You get back a 1st and 2nd in a strong draft for Wilfork, and show once again you won't dictated too? Priceless.

Wright holds his own, but hes a clear downgrade from Wilfork.

If the money is an issue, you find a spot where you can cut cap without a clear downgrade: like cutting Jarvis Green for 2M, or Bruschi for 1.5M. You don't let elite players walk to keep mediocre ones.

 

[Don_the_patfan]

Either this was a shock post, or you'r just an idiot. My post was a general commentary to say that our system is greater than the individual and you take it like I'm suggesting we get rid of our superstars. Try to follow and don't be an idiot.

Then you dont need superstars do you? Let me quote you again:

Everyone is replaceable.

If that holds true then if we were to let Brady, Moss, and Welker go we'd be able to replace them with anyone because system is greater then the individual. Again I am basing this on your quote so if this sounds idiotic then the premise was idiotic.

Certain players you need to pay for and Wilfork is the Brady of this D you just dont let him go hoping you get another Wilfork in the draft. You cant have both. Again pay the man.

P.S. I can play the name calling better then you son but thats not what I am here for. So when you address me address me properly or not at all.

 

[letekro]

Yes, and none of those guys are as good against the pass as Wilfork. He plays a completely different position than Williams, Hampton etc. The Patriots 3-4 has completely different responsibilities. They also were all drafted in a time when the 3-4 was much less popular, so guys of this type were easier to acquire.


"Brace is huge and was productive in major college football. He will be coached by BB and Pepper Johnson. I think it is clearly a worst case scenario that this guy will be terrible. "

So was Kareem Brown, and a ton of other DTs the Pats have drafted. Brace also played right next to a guy picked in the top 10.

I think Kareem Brown and B.J. Raji are irrelevant to the current situation. Brace was taken HIGH in the draft, he's a pure NT, and he has size you can't teach. Also, he was productive. None of those things apply to Kareem Brown, Ethan Kelley or some of the other mid to late round flyers that you're referring to.

If you think Brace is terrible, that's fine, but irrelevant. BB is obviously fairly high on him given his draft position, and I think is is highly likely that BB wants to see him in training camp before he pays Vince.

 

[bagwell368]

Wright holds his own, but hes a clear downgrade from Wilfork.

If the money is an issue, you find a spot where you can cut cap without a clear downgrade: like cutting Jarvis Green for 2M, or Bruschi for 1.5M. You don't let elite players walk to keep mediocre ones.

I've been toying with idea of cutting Green for months. You get $2,040k in cap space back, but you lose $2.9M in a cap hit. That's enough to pay the price for Wilfork alone. Also if Seymour leaves town after '09, Green could be importatant to resign for a single year while our DL draft picks sort it all out.

As for TB, I hope they don't cut him, it's $1,44k in savings, but $660k in dead cap space. I would rather have him retire with a coaching job and a gold watch, then take the hit if possible to avoid.

 

[Synovia]

If you think Brace is terrible, that's fine, but irrelevant. BB is obviously fairly high on him given his draft position, and I think is is highly likely that BB wants to see him in training camp before he pays Vince.

I'm not arguing otherwise. I just think Vince is going to get paid, because Brace's upside is "run stopping NT" whereas Vince, Right now, is better than that.

 

[Synovia]

I've been toying with idea of cutting Green for months. You get $2,040k in cap space back, but you lose $2.9M in a cap hit. That's enough to pay the price for Wilfork alone. Also if Seymour leaves town after '09, Green could be important to resign for a single year while our DL draft picks sort it all out.

As for TB, I hope they don't cut him, it's $1,44k in savings, but $660k in dead cap space. I would rather have him retire with a coaching job and a gold watch, then take the hit if possible to avoid.

You don't 'lose 2.9M in a cap hit', that money is "sunk cost". Its gone whether hes on the roster or not. Its irrelevant. The question is, Is Jarvis Green worth 1.7M more than one of the rookies?


Honestly, I love Bruschi, but I don't think hes worth the roster spot anymore, let alone a million and a half of our cap. He's a flat out liability in coverage, and the rest of his skills are declining. And again, that 600K is gone already. Its sunk cost. Its irrelevant.

 

[condon84]

Then you dont need superstars do you? Let me quote you again:



If that holds true then if we were to let Brady, Moss, and Welker go we'd be able to replace them with anyone because system is greater then the individual. Again I am basing this on your quote so if this sounds idiotic then the premise was idiotic.

I can play the name calling better then you son but thats not what I am here for. So when you address me address me properly or not at all.

You're missing the point. The point was that EVERYONE IS REPLACEABLE. That doesn't mean we should go in and replace everyone. Holy crap dude. It's not a hard concept. Nowhere in my post do I say "hey, let's replace all of our key guys!" What you did was a classic case of highlighting one aspect of a post and disregarding the context of the entire post or message and responding with insane hyperbole. Plus in your response, there's an element of being a douce with comments about choking on cool-aid.

And also, I don't know if you've been hiding under a rock during the Belichick era, but the mantra "everyone's replaceable" has been going on with the Pats since BB took over.

 

[bagwell368]

You don't 'lose 2.9M in a cap hit', that money is "sunk cost". Its gone whether hes on the roster or not. Its irrelevant. The question is, Is Jarvis Green worth 1.7M more than one of the rookies?


Honestly, I love Bruschi, but I don't think hes worth the roster spot anymore, let alone a million and a half of our cap. He's a flat out liability in coverage, and the rest of his skills are declining. And again, that 600K is gone already. Its sunk cost. Its irrelevant.

Hmmm. OK. Then yes, Bruschi must go, hopefully with some honor, and by coaching and staying in shape he could be pulled in after the 1st game as a Seau (who is better at this point) if the injuries mount up badly.

I think BB is in love with DL's, not sure he'll make a move on Green unless those dopes in Oakland give us our 3rd down rusher for Green and a sliding value pick, or some such deal.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

You're missing the point. The point was that EVERYONE IS REPLACEABLE. That doesn't mean we should go in and replace everyone. Holy crap dude. It's not a hard concept. Nowhere in my post do I say "hey, let's replace all of our key guys!" What you did was a classic case of highlighting one aspect of a post and disregarding the context of the entire post or message and responding with insane hyperbole. Plus in your response, there's an element of being a douce with comments about choking on cool-aid.

And also, I don't know if you've been hiding under a rock during the Belichick era, but the mantra "everyone's replaceable" has been going on with the Pats since BB took over.

everyone is replaceable......you could replace everyone on the pats roster with everyone on the lions roster.......

everyone eventually gets replaced on every team......but the notion of everyone being replaceable is intended with the notion that everyone is replaceable and the result will still be the same.......for the last 5 years, that obviously has not been true...........

deion branch was not replaceable.......if he was, the pats would have won an SB in 2006

daniel graham was not replaceable.......if he was, the pats would have won an SB in 2007

it's been obvious that the LB core has not been replaceable

brady is not replaceable

am I missing anyone??????