Wide Receivers - As Good As It Can Be

[Rob0729]

Are you trying to claim that Amendola hasn't been as expected? That Thompkins hasn't been a potential find? That Edelman, now that he's on the field, has been about what was expected? That the vet FAs didn't bust? Outside of your opinion on Dobson, which is just as definite as mine, exactly what is your issue here?

Go read my post again. It's comfortably within the confines set out by the O.P. and the other posters.

Again, I countered your argument about Dobson and you dismissed it because it was in "exhibition games" against bad secondaries. You are focusing on what you said and not how you treat other's opinions that don't agree with you.

 

[Nunchucks]

Personally, I think any "sane" person would say the Pats would find a way to make the receiving corp work because that is what they do when they have Brady, Belichick, and McDaniels. Even with Reche Caldwell as his best receiver, Brady was 7th in yards and 4th in TDs. And I would argue Brady is a better QB today than he was in 2006 and this receiving corp isn't nearly as bad as 2006 (at least at full strength).

Making the receiving core "work" versus turning it into a strength of the team. I am thinking that it will turn out to be more than merely sufficient.

 

[Rob0729]

Making the receiving core "work" versus turning it into a strength of the team. I am thinking that it will turn out to be more than merely sufficient.

I agree that the receiving corp looks like it COULD be the best corp the Pats have had since probably 2008 (Moss started to show his age in 2009 and Gaffney was gone). Could be the worst than 2006. I just tend to doubt it.

 

[Oswlek]

Dobson/Boyce - Not ready, not surprisingly (they're rookies, for crying out loud)
Edelman - Edelman
Amendola - Amendola

Outside of Thompkins, everything is not only as the "pessimists" would have indicated, it's as even most "optimists" would have acknowledged. Thompkins has upset the apple cart. Everything else is pretty much as one would expect to this point. Given that, your post really doesn't make any sense.

None whatsoever. :bricks:

Deus, trying to play the "it's exactly as I said it would be!" card after spending the last few months decrying the group as the worst in the league makes you look pretty silly. Instead of spinning, just say "hey, they look better than I thought they would" and be happy about being wrong. :thumb:

 

[MassPats38]

We had people on this board pimping both Jones and Jenkins, and trying to convince us that they'd make for a better WR group than last year. Most people looking at the team knew that was crazy, and that this was probably going to be a team that ended up relying on Amendola and the rookies, barring some sort of trade. That was where the "sane people" comment comes in.

On the other hand, the Patriots have Tom Brady, who can, at times, make chicken salad.... Just ask Reche.

I don't claim to read everything, so I thought some of that may be attributable to other conversations. As stated earlier, here's hoping it all pans out for the offense, and we do not see WR castoffs appearing and starting later in the year in place of what is here now. I recalled a much better statistical year for Brady with the likes of Caldwell and Gabriel, but the picture of 600 fewer passing yards in 2006 than he had in 2005 and 1300 more in 2007 with a good receiver corps reminded me that Brady is awesome but not a miracle worker if he has nothing to target.

 

[Deus Irae]

None whatsoever. :bricks:

Deus, trying to play the "it's exactly as I said it would be!" card after spending the last few months decrying the group as the worst in the league makes you look pretty silly. Instead of spinning, just say "hey, they look better than I thought they would" and be happy about being wrong. :thumb:

Oswlek, misrepresenting what I've said does you no credit. I've acknowledged Amendola as a good player, noted that I'd wanted him as an eventual successor to Welker, and said that his issue would be durability. I've noted that rookies are rookies and you can't count on them until they prove themselves. The guys I said sucked have been cut from the team. In other words, Oswlek, I've been dead on.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't claim to read everything, so I thought some of that may be attributable to other conversations. As stated earlier, here's hoping it all pans out for the offense, and we do not see WR castoffs appearing and starting later in the year in place of what is here now. I recalled a much better statistical year for Brady with the likes of Caldwell and Gabriel, but the picture of 600 fewer passing yards in 2006 than he had in 2005 and 1300 more in 2007 with a good receiver corps reminded me that Brady is awesome but not a miracle worker if he has nothing to target.

From your fingertips to God's eyes.

 

[Rob0729]

I don't claim to read everything, so I thought some of that may be attributable to other conversations. As stated earlier, here's hoping it all pans out for the offense, and we do not see WR castoffs appearing and starting later in the year in place of what is here now. I recalled a much better statistical year for Brady with the likes of Caldwell and Gabriel, but the picture of 600 fewer passing yards in 2006 than he had in 2005 and 1300 more in 2007 with a good receiver corps reminded me that Brady is awesome but not a miracle worker if he has nothing to target.

I think Caldwell would have worked if he ever did what he was brought here to be - a #2 or #3 WR. He was a horrible #1 WR.

 

[RIpats88]

I think its unfair to dismiss preseason games as "just preseason" and it doesnt count when forming opinions on players...remember in 2010 the corp was supposed to be horrible, and people were dismissing the preseason success of Gronkowski/hernandez...they ended up being fine.

this patriots offense is all about

1. understanding the offense and being in the right place.
2. developing trust with brady

and just from watcing the practices, pre-season games...you can tell that Thompkins has both of those attributes. brady has alot of trust in throwing to him...I dont see that changing when the regular season starts.

dobson/boyce clearly dont look ready to "start" but I dont think its out of the realm to say they can contribute as #3 wr' especially in this offense where when gronk is back, the #3 WR will be 5th or 6th in targets behind Gronk, amendola, thompkins, Vereen, maybe even sudfeld(as brady lkes to target his tight ends)

 

[Pewsterbaby]

None whatsoever. :bricks:

Deus, trying to play the "it's exactly as I said it would be!" card after spending the last few months decrying the group as the worst in the league makes you look pretty silly. Instead of spinning, just say "hey, they look better than I thought they would" and be happy about being wrong. :thumb:

"Ahh, you know your man is working hard. He's worth a Deus!"

 

[Brady6]

To state the obvious, so far, all has worked out.

1) Amendola looks like he will be Brady's #1. He's looked good.

2) As we hoped, we have a rookie at WR #2 and WR#4.

3) As expected when he was signed, Edelman is #3.

4) We have hopes of our rookie #4 WR moving up in the depth chart as the season progresses.

5) We even have a rookie at #5 that we are satisfied has potential.

6) The five players we will keep all did well enough to beat out several free agents.
=======

Only the names have changed. A couple of months ago, we might have had Dobson and Boyce as #2 and #4, and a UDFA (or even a vet) at #5.

I outlined our passing/receiving stats below.

Player	COMP	ATT	COMP %	YDS	YDS/ATT	TD	INT	SCK	RATING
Brady	32	44	77.30%	357	8.10	2	1	2	106.00
Mallett	32	60	53.30%	330	5.50	2	0	0	80.60
Tebow	5	19	26.30%	54	2.80	0	1	3	17.70
									
Player	REC	TGT	REC %	YDS	AVG	TD	FD	FD %	
Thompkins	13	21	61.90%	142	10.90	0	6	46.20%	
Edelman	10	12	83.33%	75	7.50	0	6	60.00%	
Dobson	8	21	38.10%	115	14.40	0	7	87.50%	
Amendola	7	8	87.50%	77	11.00	1	4	57.10%	
Vereen	7	11	63.64%	62	8.90	1	4	57.10%	
Sudfeld	6	9	66.67%	90	15.00	1	4	66.70%	
Boyce	5	10	50.00%	27	5.40	0	1	20.00%

Bright spots –

 Thompkins has been very effective getting off the line and creating separation. He has also show an ability to make plays after the catch on some short passes (screens, bubbles, etc.).
 Although Dobson has a terrible percentage of receptions to targets it is nice to see that he is making the play when it matters with 7 of his 8 catches resulting in a first down.
 Edelman has gone under the radar; however it is worth noting he is second on the team in receptions.
 Amendola has been outstanding as long as he is healthy he could quickly make us forget Welker; he is quicker and more athletic than Welker and it shows in his play.

Dark spots –

 Boyce has not done much and appears far behind the other rookies (Dobson, Sudfeld, and Thompkins).
 Ballard has not done anything in the passing game, he has zero receptions and has only been targeted once, if we weren’t fortunate enough to find an apparent diamond in the rough with Sudfeld this sore thumb would stick out a lot more.
 Outside of Sudfeld overall the entire TE position has been a disappointment, Hooman has shown nothing to indicate a year 2 (with us) improvement, and Fells despite a strong early camp has proven incapable of staying on the field for the second consecutive season.

I mentioned this in another thread but I feel it is relevant to this discussion and therefor worth noting again; this teams receiving corp. is being forced to overcome an unforeseen loss, our free agent and draft planning, and execution all took place around the notion that Aaron Hernandez would be a major piece of our passing game, had we known that he was a sociopathic serial killer things probably would of went differently, we may not have waited to the fourth round for a second receiver, or more likely in my opinion we’d of retained Welker for at least one more season, given this adversity and how well I feel the passing game has performed in the preseason I am extremely pleased with the performance of our passing game to this point.

 

[Oswlek]

Oswlek, misrepresenting what I've said does you no credit. I've acknowledged Amendola as a good player, noted that I'd wanted him as an eventual successor to Welker, and said that his issue would be durability. I've noted that rookies are rookies and you can't count on them until they prove themselves. The guys I said sucked have been cut from the team. In other words, Oswlek, I've been dead on.

Perhaps you are a little rusty at this admitting error thing. Here are a few samples to generate ideas.

"Maybe equating every rookie receiver to Chad Jackson was a little over-the-top."

"I guess I shouldn't have acted as if every decision the team made at the WR position this offseason was complete idiocy. Or, at the very least, not treated everyone who thought otherwise with smarmy disdain"

Or, even a perfectly-reasonable-but-still-qualified response.

"It seems as if I underestimated their abilities by calling them the worst group in the league, but I'm still concerned about Amendola's and Edelman's injury history and would like to see the rookies perform in a real game before getting too excited."

I hope these stimulate some ideas, but you are certainly free to copy/paste if one feels dead on. :rocker:

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

The New England Patriots rang up 518 points during the 2010 NFL Season with the following cast of characters:

Brady
BJGE
Woodhead
Gronkowski (rookie)
Hernandez (rookie)
Welker (coming off ACL surgery)
Moss/Branch
Tate

2010 New England Patriots Statistics & Players - Pro-Football-Reference.com

I'm more concerned about the depth and health of the New England Patriots offensive line.

The pass catching corps looks far better this year. Caveat is rooks under real game planning conditions.
And note that Moss only played 4 games here in 2010 and was de-emphasized in those 4.

I'm most concerned about depth at DT with health & depth at OL & CB concerns.

 

[ivanvamp]

I am slightly more than cautiously optimistic about this WR group. I think Amendola is terrific, but his health history worries me (as it does everyone else). I think Thompkins has been a revelation and looks like he has the goods to be a good NFL WR. I have always liked Edelman's game and skill set and think he can be a very useful player. And Boyce and Dobson have ability, but look like they have a little ways to go. But that's ok.

I'm bullish on this group, especially given their age. No old men in the bunch. But I will repeat something I have said before: their age and collective inexperience will create some problems. They will miss reads and run routs differently than what Brady will throw based on what *he* sees. And that will lead to more incompletions and interceptions, and even sacks as Brady pulls the ball in after he notices a WR made a bad route. So Brady's stats will be worse than in previous years, even if he actually plays the QB position better than he ever has.

 

[mgteich]

For how bad the situation was, and could have worked out to be, I do think that it is as good as we could have expected. We have 4 players that have met our expectations, and 1 that has greatly exceeded them. And yes, much depends on Thompkins.

Amendola's been what was expected
Edelman has been what was expected
Thompkins has surprised in exhibition games
Dobson and Boyce have shown that they aren't ready
The veteran FAs were busts

Outside of a potential find in Thompkins, this group is pretty much what most sane people expected it to be, for better or worse.

 

[mgteich]

I agree with all your analysis in this thread. I would not be surprised to see Boyce active over Dobson. In any case, Edelman is our #3, having recently been passed by Thompkins. Edelman should be able to give us what we got from Branch/Edelman last year.

Obviously, the major issues for this group are health (Amendola and Edelman) and development (the rest).

You made the claim that Dobson's shown to be a WR3. He's done no such thing.

As for me, the closest thing to a controversial statement that I made was when I noted was that both Dobson and Boyce have shown they aren't ready, and that shouldn't be in any way controversial. That's not news, as reporters have been noting the same thing, and that's not proof that they won't be ready at some point, be it week 1, week 16 or next year.

 

[mgteich]

We don't want to repeat the poor production of Branch last year.

I think that, as of now, Edelman is a much better #3 than Dobson. I think that Brady can count on Edelman to be where is supposed to be, and to execute. Edelman has a relatively low ceiling, but he (like Branch) is dependable. Of course, his issue is health.

What does WR#3 catch? Three or four balls a game at most? Dobson has certainly showed that thus far. He has shown that he is capable of running certain routes. He still needs to work on his shorter routes and getting free on those short routes, but he looks good on some of the more vertical routes.

If the preseason is any indication, he certainly can be a decent #3 WR right off the bat and be the Pats' outside guy in those situations. Who knows if he can be that when the games really start. Again, we are talking about the #3 WR, not a starter. I wouldn't say from what we have saw that he would be a great #3 WR, but it would be better than what the Pats have had as a #3 WR in a long, long time (except in 2011 when Branch was the #3 WR, but was the defacto #2 WR because Ocho sucked so bad). But the Pats haven't had any real depth at WR to speak of since 2008.

I never said anything about controversial. I am talking about definitive assessments vs. opinions based on the preseason. It could just be your style, but you speak in definitive statements and seem to dismiss other's opinions as "it's just the preseason". And your sane comment is yet another example of you coming off as you thinking you are being smarter and more objective than people who disagree with your opinion. Whether that was your intent or not.

 

[Oswlek]

For how bad the situation was, and could have worked out to be, I do think that it is as good as we could have expected. We have 4 players that have met our expectations, and 1 that has greatly exceeded them. And yes, much depends on Thompkins.

If this is true, you guys have a strange way of illustrating your expectations. :confused4:

 

[patchick]

Dobson/Boyce - Not ready, not surprisingly (they're rookies, for crying out loud)

Yep, I think Thompkins' preseason impersonation of a 5-year vet may be skewing our expectations of Dobson and Boyce. IMO they look like solid 2nd and 4th round rookies so far.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

I would of never thought this in early July, but Brady should have enough weapons to work with.

Primary Targets:
1. Gronk
2. Amendola
3. Thompkins

Secondary Targets:
4. Sudfeld
5. Vereen
6. Edelman

Bonus Targets: (If one of these three can step up it's a bonus)
7. Dobson
8. Boyce
9. Fells

The Key is of course Gronk/Amendola being 100% for when it counts the most.

I agree 100%.

Gronk/Amendola being healthy in the playoffs is key. If we had healthy Gronk the past 2 Superbowls, those games wouldve been very different.

In regards to Edelman..... He looked amazing at times last year but couldn't stay healthy.