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Why the protests, Tea Party and OWS, scare most Americans.

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by mcgraw_wv, Oct 17, 2011.

  1. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    I am reminded of a great quote when the tides of change are at our countries doorstep. Bill Hicks, a comedian who died far before his time has a routine where he speaks this truth.

    Too many people, with too much invested in our current system will ensure that nothing changes, and if anything becomes to close to changing, people get killed. Changing is scary, I completley understand, but knowing that all the negative comments, all the hate and fear of change which is focused on the Tea Party and the OWS protestors, all can be counted up as a fear of change.

    Obama was supposed to ( for me ) change DC, change our status quo, change our government, make way for a new phase in American politics, clean up DC and bring it back to the people. Instead he completely 100% utterly lied in his theme of how campaign, not just a small campaign lie, his entire campaign was a lie.

    I believe the OWS is born out of that frustration, becuase Obama completely let them down on all fronts. I believe there is no turning back, and corporate America is here to stay.

    I believe that the book "Jennifer Government" might be a more and more plausible reality before I leave this rock. It's been a swift change, and there is a war, and the people of this country, and this world just got a nuke dropped on them with the global economy collapse, and there is no one to represent them.

    Although I don't agree with everything OWS stands for, I am with them. We need change, dramatic change, we can deal with the details later, but overwhelmingly, we need some real change from the bottom up.
  2. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #11 Jersey

    I don't agree with everything you say, but I do agree with the great bulk of it. I think that Obama meant well....I don't think he was lying, I think he was naive - I think we all were.

    We do need change - and yes, it probably needs to be dramatic.

    I think my personal problem with The Tea Party has always been that it has never been so much about seeking change as it is seeking to bring back the "old days," and regressive change instead of progressively change.

    I don't know where the OWS is going - maybe nowhere. But hopefully the heart of it will grow and be heard as a force to be reckoned with.
  3. DarrylS

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    The reality is that "real change" is very uncomfortable for most people in this country.. they want to talk the talk, but little else.

    For example, the current Iraq controversy.. there are some who want a complete pull out, while others want to leave a good size force, this debate is continuing. Obama is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Both sides of the aisle are mixe with a solution here.

    The reality is the best move is to get completely out of Iraq, but that will probably never happen, the real power in this country has too much invested and too much to lose.
  4. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    Not to derail this conversation but most people were better off in a small government world. More people had food to eat, more people had jobs...

    What I see from that time to now is larger government, less food, and jobs to go around. More laws, less freedom. More federal government, more lobbying, less representation.

    I like OWS, but if their plan is to rail againt the machine, in order to make the Machine larger and more socially responsible.. it's a failed strategy which will only in the long run serve the special interests. Paul's vision of the Federal government is the only government model which puts the maximum amount of freedom and power in your hands, not the bankers, or wall street or politicians.

    OWS and the Ron Paul Tea Party have a lot in common... If those causes unite under a Ron Paul third party run... Politics could be turned on it's head...

    I already here there is a lot of RP support down at Wall Street.
  5. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    This is what I hate, when has American ever longed for constant state of war? Our history has been everything but that. Yet here we are, locked in a constant state of War, and we just sent troops to Africa as well.

    When does it stop?
  6. khayos

    khayos Rookie

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    When we finally get Emmanuel Goldstein
  7. DarrylS

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    I you believe in who really controls this country and the whole "power elite" thing, probably never...

    Early on in college economics were taught that war would be good for the economy.. think too many people believed it.
  8. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    It is good only if you fight against other industrial countries. What the professors failed to mention is that WWI, and WWII destroyed a lot of competitors to American Manufacturing...

    Blowing up caves in a mountainous dessert country does nothing but cost money.
  9. DarrylS

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    Good for the American Economy... it needed qualification.

    Was also based on war profiteers(masters of war) employ a lot of different types of people and use a lot of resources..

    In this current situation in Iraq/Afghanistan the use of contractors from well placed and powerful companies will make any diversion of financial resources difficult.. consider Wackenhut, Xe, Haliburton and many others who have garnered incredible wealth in these country under the guise of contractors. Many of these companies/contractors have ties to specific political parties and it will be incredibly difficult to deviate from this power base.
  10. Harry Boy

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    Nothing is forever, live with it, the OWS is a great Idea but the Far Left Wing will ruin it just as they have destroyed the Democcratic Party.

    Big Businees & Billionaire Bosses have to be controled but we can't live without them, they are who we work for, drive a big bussiness out of the country and the next day you have 10,000 people out of work.

    THe OWS are on the right track but the Whacko's are creeping in, also, they should be protesting in Washington the rotten bastards you have in Congress. the Senate and the White House are far worse than "Wall Street" America needs to be cleaned up, bad.
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2011
  11. DarrylS

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    Not all that convinced that one is worse than the other, imo the lines are blurred and getting blurrier..

    The whacko's were here from the onset, not sure it can get any worse than it is now..
  12. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    But that wealth comes directly from Debt from our government, from our people. All a war like this gets us is more debt, and more people's money funnelled into corporation pockets.

    A war like WWII actually spurred on Demand, because our competitors were being destroyed. This created real demand, and real wealth.

    But either way, back to the point of this thread.

    Our leadership has put us in such a dire situation, and it really does start with Bush, perpetuated by Obama, and were sitting here 10 years in war, constant debt, no answers, no jobs to show for all this debt, a steepers bill to pay down the road, nothing real to show for it.

    Our country is getting weaker, our infrastructure is crumbling, our jobs are leaving, there is nothing positive our country gained for this war, this leadership, this spending.
  13. DarrylS

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    You preach to the choir.. an interesting note was when I was at OWS in NYC spoke to an older newspaper guy and asked him why there was not more outrage over the killing of 150K Iraqi women and children by the expeditionary forces. He felt that answer was simple, that because we imbed reporters and the stuff they generate is filtered we did not see maimed and bloody bodies of women and children. Compare to Viet Nam War when we all remember the naked little girl running down the street with her body burned after a Napalm attack.

    Another factor is that no one really sees the effect of a Drone Attack, it is all directed from bunkers far away.. which lessens even more our ability to display outrage over the injustice of much of this.

    Our moral compass is broken as a country, and overall there is little outcry over what we have done to these people and this country.
  14. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    So basically what you don't like about the Tea Party is that it's not socialist, or pushing a socialist agenda. It's "regressive". It wants to go back to those terrible days where people worked for a living, and the government lived a little more within it's means. Lord knows the newer progressive model where half the people don't pay taxes, and where the gubmit is so large it confiscates the cookies in your kids lunch box, and is in bed with every special interest imaginable because it has it's hands in every aspect of American life, is working so well. We actually need more of that. More gubmit, more taxes, more special interests, more rules, restrictions, and definately redistribution. Cuz like with children, when you give them everything they want, without having them earn it, they always act responsibly when looking for more.
  15. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #11 Jersey

    Wow!! You certainly do read between the lines good, don't you?

    I don't recall saying any of those things.

    What I will say is that I don't want to go back to a world with no regulations, no minimum wage, no "safety net" for those who truly need one, no child labor laws, no sweatshop laws, the ability for a business to decide that it doesn't want to serve blacks, Hispanics, Jews, etc., because it is their "right." I don't want to return to a world where a woman has no control and no voice in her own health choices, I don't want to return to a time with "charity" hospitals for the poor because we've had those and they didn't work. I don't want to go back to a place (which we never had, btw) where a specific religion becomes part of the government and all other religions are suspect. I don't want our elderly, of whom we shall all one day become, to be cast aside and left out in the cold. I don't want our poorest children to be there with them. I want them protected to the best of our ability because it is not just an unknown "them" we will be protecting, it will be ourselves.

    While I'm at it, let me say this: For the life of me, I cannot understand why the same people who are so up-in-arms over the fact that the poorest among us don't always pay income taxes are not equally as irritated that the richest among us don't always pay them, either....and when they do, they often pay them at a lesser rate than we do.
  16. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Nothing's going to change until the government goes completely broke. Maybe when the EU collapses, we could see some of the required changes made, but I doubt it.
  17. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    You don't have to say that. It's totally implied. Afterall, outside of the usual fringe element, no one is clamoring for the days of child labor, or the wild wild west.

    Save the children!

    47% don't pay income taxes. 47%. I don't think 47% of income earners are poor.

    The richest pay the bulk of the tax burden in this country. It's always easy to point to people who have more than you do, and say they should pay more. The problem imo, is the deductions so many get. It's these very deductions that allow 47% to go unscathed, while the Buffett's of the world deduct $23 million off the top of their taxable income. That is what needs to be tended to. Raising rates is mere BS imo. What good is raising rates if people are simply going to CPA there way into avoiding them?

    The only rate I'd raise if capital gains. 15% is absurd. That's far too low imo.
  18. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #11 Jersey

    In that case, I don't know who you're going to vote for if you're not going to vote for Obama because all the other hopefuls, Tea Party, Republican and Libertarian alike, are 6 for 6 to eliminate them altogether.

    ROMNEY
    Romney’s plan calls for lowering the tax rate for corporations – it tops out at 35 percent, one of the highest in the world – in a bid to encourage more companies to keep profits in the U.S. Romney also wants to eliminate taxes on interest, capital gains and dividends.

    Republican Mitt Romney suggests lowering corporate tax rate, eliminate capital gains taxes to help create jobs | masslive.com

    HUNTSMAN
    1) Eliminate all deductions and credits in favor of three drastically lower rates of 8%, 14% and 23%.

    2) Eliminate the Alternative Minimum Tax.

    3) Eliminate taxes on capital gains and dividends in order to eliminate the double taxation on investment.

    4) Reduce the corporate rate from 35% To 25%. Huntsman would also shift to a territorial tax system and implement a tax holiday for the repatriation of foreign earnings.


    A Week After Hinting He May Raise Capital Gains Tax, Huntsman Proposes Eliminating It Altogether | ThinkProgress

    HERMAN CAIN
    Cain’s plan relies only on a national sales tax, income tax and corporate income tax, and it will erase current capital gains, payroll and estate taxes.

    The failures of Cain's tax plan | mndaily.com - Serving the University of Minnesota Community Since 1900

    BACHMANN
    In a revealing interview with Steve Moore of The Wall Street Journal, Rep. Michele Bachmann(R-MN) called for repealing taxes on capital gains.

    How Michele Bachmann Would Knock 20,000 Millionaires Off The Tax Rolls - Forbes

    RON PAUL
    As President, Ron Paul will support a Liberty Amendment to the Constitution to abolish the income and death taxes. And he will be proud to be the one who finally turns off the lights at the IRS for good.

    Capital gains taxes, which punish you for success (and interfere with your efforts to hedge against inflation by purchasing gold and silver coins), should also be immediately repealed.


    Taxes | Ron Paul 2012 Presidential Campaign Committee

    GINGRICH
    This is why I have proposed a tax policy that maximizes private capital investment to create jobs. It starts with eliminating the capital gains tax and the death tax, reducing the corporate tax to 12.5%, and 100% expensing of all new capital equipment purchases.

    Eliminating the capital gains tax would liberate private capital to move quickly to the most productive investments, thereby accelerating economic growth.


    Newt in USA Today: Capital gains tax deters investment in U.S. | Newt Gingrich 2012
  19. chicowalker

    chicowalker On the Roster

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    Just wondering how you're defining things -- when was the small government world?
  20. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    Not, no all of us were naively fooled by his routine. Some of us saw right through it from day one.

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