Why the Pats won't move to the 4-3...

[unoriginal]

Could you name some of them please? I don't remember ANY 4-3 Defensive ends being in the 290 range. I remember the TOP being about 280 and that was when McGinest was playing there.

What is most beneficial to the Pats? Having one of their top 3 D-linemen on the bench at any point in time or having all 3 on the field?

God, just a few:

Mike Strahan, Robert Porcher, Kelvin Pritchett, Marc Spindler, Trevor Pryce, Reggie White, Fernando Smith, Gabe Wilkins, Chidi Ahantou, Trace Armstrong, Marco Coleman, Chris Doleman, Roy Barker, Kevin Carter...

You know, the big 280-290 lbs. DE that was equally good against the run and the pass, before the Tampa 2 and zone blitzing took over. A few of the players above slimmed down as their careers went along: Strahan, for one, now plays in the 260 lbs. range. Porcher slimmed down as well.

 

[unoriginal]

Hardly optimal in a pass happy league like the NFL.

Super quick, lighter DE's like Osi or Jason Taylor are more the norm these days.

Yes, hardly optimal, and the 250-260 lbs. DEs are more the norm. But I think the Pats have the talent (speed/size combo) on the DL to make a heavy 4-3 2-gap work... if they had 3 fast linebackers who could sprint sideline to sideline and cover, that is.

 

[Joker]

So, instead of being part of the problem by cluttering up the thread with garbage, how about you be part of the solution and support the basis of the thread. Which is that the Pats will not move to a 4-3 on a full time basis.

I thought I DID do that...

Newsflash...BB runs a base 3/4 defense...END OF FREAKIN' STORY.

oh wait...I DID

maybe you read the first few words of my post and just went all "how dare you attack my post you stupid idiot!!!!!!!"....anyway...no matter what side of this 3/4, 4/3 argument anybody is on , the whole exercise is futile.

 

[DaBruinz]

God, just a few:

Mike Strahan, Robert Porcher, Kelvin Pritchett, Marc Spindler, Trevor Pryce, Reggie White, Fernando Smith, Gabe Wilkins, Chidi Ahantou, Trace Armstrong, Marco Coleman, Chris Doleman, Roy Barker, Kevin Carter...

You know, the big 280-290 lbs. DE that was equally good against the run and the pass, before the Tampa 2 and zone blitzing took over. A few of the players above slimmed down as their careers went along: Strahan, for one, now plays in the 260 lbs. range. Porcher slimmed down as well.

I don't remember Strahan ever being that big, honestly. Nor Kevin Carter, though looking at Carter's page he is listed at 305. As for Reggie White, I would have figured him to be the exception, not the rule.

Ok. So, be honest. Do you think that the Pats could run the 4-3 with a line of Warren, Seymour, Wilfork and Green? And who would be the LBers?

 

[TripleOption]

Yes, hardly optimal, and the 250-260 lbs. DEs are more the norm. But I think the Pats have the talent (speed/size combo) on the DL to make a heavy 4-3 2-gap work... if they had 3 fast linebackers who could sprint sideline to sideline and cover, that is.

The advantage of a 4-3 is the quick upfield ends and penetrating DT's. A 2 gap technique limits that.

 

[unoriginal]

I don't remember Strahan ever being that big, honestly. Nor Kevin Carter, though looking at Carter's page he is listed at 305. As for Reggie White, I would have figured him to be the exception, not the rule.

If I remember correctly, Strahan came into the league in 1993 at 292 lbs. As late as last year he was listed at 275 for Tim Lewis' more conservative defense.

Do you think that the Pats could run the 4-3 with a line of Warren, Seymour, Wilfork and Green? And who would be the LBers?

Yes.

And that's the real question, isn't it?

The advantage of a 4-3 is the quick upfield ends and penetrating DT's. A 2 gap technique limits that.

I'm sure the Pats could 1-gap everybody in the 4-3 too. Even Wilfork is a decent 1-gapper still, he showed good swim moves in the Baltimore game from what I saw.

I would just expect, that if the Pats were to go heavy 4-3, they'd use their beef to collapse the offensive line and shield the young, fast linebackers, as a young linebacking corps would probably be what it would take to get us to switch to 4-3 more often, or Capers' hybrid defense.

 

[DaBruinz]

So, instead of being part of the problem by cluttering up the thread with garbage, how about you be part of the solution and support the basis of the thread. Which is that the Pats will not move to a 4-3 on a full time basis.

I thought I DID do that...

Newsflash...BB runs a base 3/4 defense...END OF FREAKIN' STORY.

oh wait...I DID

maybe you read the first few words of my post and just went all "how dare you attack my post you stupid idiot!!!!!!!"....anyway...no matter what side of this 3/4, 4/3 argument anybody is on , the whole exercise is futile.

I DID read the first few words of your post. You attacked this thread in general and clearly missed the point. Its not a futile exercise when there are people advocating a switch to the 4-3. Now about the garbage that BB is a 3-4 Coach. Just a friendly reminder, he ran the 4-3 the 1st 2 years with the Pats (we won the SB in the 4-3) and then he switched back to the 4-3 when neither Steve Martin nor Seymour worked out at the NT position in 2002. So, its not like it would be new. YES, he prefers the 3-4, but if he doesn't have the personnel, he'll go to what works.

So, as I said, how about not being part of the problem and being part of the solution or just not participating. Instead of attacking the thread, you could have just posted comments to support the idea that this is a 3-4 team.

 

[Joker]

Look...don't patronize me..this whole premise you're spouting off on pre-supposes a whole bunch of "if"'s that makes a house of cards look like a concrete fortress. First off, at this point in his career, with his knee problems, Seymour is going to play DE? Or are you saying Warren plays DE...because Green would have to play the other end spot...and Wilfork would have to drastically slim down to play the 4/3 DT technique. Warren as a DE? I would think you want speed rushing from the DE spot...so let's say, for your non argument argument, that since BB played a 4/3 six years ago BESIDES the BASE 3/4 (and don't even TRY to bullsh!t me that he ran a 4/3 exclusively) that he now plays a 4/3 this season...WHERE do the players that make that defense work come from? It's a completely preposterous, ridiculous, bull headed and bone headed proposition....as is this whole idiotic topic.

I'l print it one more time...BB runs a BASE 3/4 defense...key word being BASE....he's run a plethora of looks on D over the years, 4/3's, 5/2's and on and on...but the defense is ,at its heart a 3/4 defense....with 3/4 personnel.

 

[TripleOption]

I would just expect, that if the Pats were to go heavy 4-3, they'd use their beef to collapse the offensive line and shield the young, fast linebackers, as a young linebacking corps would probably be what it would take to get us to switch to 4-3 more often, or Capers' hybrid defense.

Capers is a 3-4 guy, albeit a more pressure packed one gap style.

Having beef upfront to free fast backers is a run stopping philosophy. It is the superfast DE's and DT's that attack the passer...Freeney, Osi, etc...

 

[primetime]

I don't remember Strahan ever being that big, honestly. Nor Kevin Carter, though looking at Carter's page he is listed at 305. As for Reggie White, I would have figured him to be the exception, not the rule.

Ok. So, be honest. Do you think that the Pats could run the 4-3 with a line of Warren, Seymour, Wilfork and Green? And who would be the LBers?

I think they could run a 4-3 with that defensive front and Vrabel, Bruschi, and Thomas as the linebackers. I also think it's being considered quite heavily and that's why they made a play for Zach Thomas, while none of the 3-4 LBs have visited like Hobson or Haggans.

Reggie White weighed in at 290 and was the greatest defensive end to ever play. Julius Peppers weighs 290 and he's pretty good last I heard. Mario Williams weighs 295 and he's pretty damn good as well.

 

[unoriginal]

Capers is a 3-4 guy, albeit a more pressure packed one gap style.

Having beef upfront to free fast backers is a run stopping philosophy. It is the superfast DE's and DT's that attack the passer...Freeney, Osi, etc...

I think we both agree that BB's usual focus defensively is to stop the run, then the long ball, then finally the short Walsh crap. So I maintain that the heavy 4-3 would be the style we would be most disposed to run if for some reason the coaching staff felt it wise to switch to the 4-3. The personnel and the philosophy seem most suited to it.

But I think we have the horses on the defensive line to run whatever system we damn well please. Top to bottom on the depth chart the best athletes on the team seem to be there. From what I've seen Mike Wright and Le Kevin Smith are every bit the athletic freak any D-lineman on the Colts not named Dwight Freeney is.

I think the determining factor in any defensive base is what our linebacking corps looks like, not our DEs.

 

[GPR11788]

The defensive personnel the Pats have at this point are not suited for 4-3. Also, IMO it doesn't make sense for them to draft at DT, when they can just as easily fill the linebacker position with depth. I could be wrong, but I think the advantage of the 3-4 is that the offense does not know where the rush is coming from.


If BB truly thought a 4-3 is better he would have drafted personnel suited for that system, the scheme IMO is not the problem, it is just that the defense is aging.

 

[TheBaronPatriot]

Could you name some of them please? I don't remember ANY 4-3 Defensive ends being in the 290 range. I remember the TOP being about 280 and that was when McGinest was playing there.

What is most beneficial to the Pats? Having one of their top 3 D-linemen on the bench at any point in time or having all 3 on the field?

Let's see Julius Peppers is around 285, Mario Williams is around the same weight, and some guy by the name of Reggie White played over 300 lbs.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

I don't think that assessment is accurate.

What's not accurate about it? They where defensive tackles in college. Warren and Seymour would make terrible ends in a 4-3. Their way too slow.

 

[FarScapeR]

Forgive this post if you wind up realizing I'm talking out of my ass...

The Pats have played 4-3 before and they'll do it again. Green and AD at DE with Wilfork/LK/Wright/Seymour at DT. It's just a matter of good coverage LBs and that's the problem with the current LB corps, regardless of system.

I think BB is toying more and more with the idea of safeties in the LB role, as shown in the game against indy and his decision to bring in a LB-esque safety in free agency.

 

[Pats726]

But as I am sure many have pointed out...they WILL play more 4-3..here and there..but THAT is far from a BASE of 4-3...they will NOT use that as a base as they do NOT have the players to fit. At times they will use it..as they will use many OTHER defensive schemes..as the 0-7...and all kinds of nickel and dime etc etc..BUT NOT as a base.

 

[Patjew]

Does anyone think the Pats will move to a 4-3 next year? Not sure if it's been discussed or not yet.

 

[gomezcat]

Does anyone think the Pats will move to a 4-3 next year? Not sure if it's been discussed or not yet.

Ni Hao!

Nah, it got ignored in the "you're a (insert today's insult)" exchange that is getting increasingly common in these parts.

I agree that the 3-4 DEs are too slow to play as edge rushers in the 4-3. Guys like Strahan, Reggie White and so on have played well at 280 etc (as mentioned by previous posters) but they are really quick for their size. The 4-3 might work if Vernon Gholston falls to us (which is less likely than it was a month ago, IMVHO).

Another question to ask is why we would want to switch. For me, it would be to add speed and athleticism to the D. I think the same could be achieved by picking up a couple of younger, more athletic linebackers who could bring an equivalent pass rush from the edge or through the gaps (apparently Capers is renowned for generating good blitzes...)

 

[DaBruinz]

Ok. So, there are guys like Peppers and Williams who are athletic freaks who weigh in at 295 or so. They also run the 40 in 4.74 seconds.

Ty Warren's 40 number was 5.10.
Seymour's 40 number was 4.95
Dorsey's 40 number is about 4.98 or so.

I just don't see Warren and Seymour being DE's in the mold of a Reggie White or even Julius Peppers. And that brings us back to having one of either Seymour, Warren or Wilfork on the bench at any time. And I just don't see how that is a benefit to the Patriots.

Ok. I can conced that Jarvis Green can probably be one of the DEs in a 4-3. But that moves Thomas or Vrabel up for the other. You might be able to move Bruschi outside for an OLB spot, but there is still no one for the MLB spot.

 

[primetime]

Last I looked, the quarterback doesn't make a 40 step drop, so 40 times are irrelevant. Explosiveness off the line and ability to get around blockers is more important than straight line speed. Don't get me wrong, I love the 3-4 defensive line we have but the team lacks the linebackers right now, especially if there are injuries (and even then, without Seau, the team only has one legitimate middle guy and Bruschi is hardly the star he once was).