PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

Why the Colts are great


Status
Not open for further replies.
What's the deal with the Playtex reference?
Damn. I knew someone would call me on that. I was just about to change it. Dude? I think it was freudian. I can't help but think about sheli elisha manning everytime. It's a Bolts thing?

I do have tremendous respect for PM and the Colts. I do recognize what the Colts achieved. Every Colts fan should be extremely proud. Technically, while it does appear NE is the best team this year, if I were ranking the Colts, I'd put them at 1. Like I said. The Colts are currently reigning champs and they have not lost since. To me? That carries the most weight.

I am truly sorry about the Playtex ref. That's all I can say. PM is a lock for the HOF. He's a living legend and I know this.

Just don't get me started on his bro.
 
Last edited:
Why the Colts are great...

In short? Peyton Manning. Everyone else benefits. And I mean, EVERYONE. Dungy included.
 
I just wanted to congratulate Solman on choosing the best thread title possible to get hits. Just seeing the words "why the Colts are great" pissed me off enough to check this out.

Great job on your analysis & theory as well. In addition, you have provided a lot of interest from many non-Pats fans. I actually pasted a link to this thread on ColtFreaks.com to show them we're not all homers here.

A few Coltfreaks members said they'd by stopping by over the weekend to "smack it up" on your thread.

Great Job!:rocker:
 
Last edited:
Coaching. Specifically, teaching players how to play their position at the NFL level.
No team has sustained success without shining in that area.
 
Sorry O, wasn't avoiding you, I posted this is another thread:

PM has taken 7 knees, bump that average to 4.78 please. Looks like Brady has taken 3, so NE is 4.29. I'd say a half yard is a pretty big difference.

Let me put it this way. I feel like NE uses the running game to keep the defense honest, and the passing game to score points. 21 to 5 in the TD dept. Colts actually use the run as part of their offense. 10 to 8 in the td dept.

I think your numbers in the pass dept have risen the past few weeks, in part due to LM injury, but also because you can throw at will. Game plans are a part of it, but you haven't faced a team like the run stuffing Vikes of last season, you have no reason to throw multiple times in succession.

All I know is that the gaudy numbers didn't work so well for the Colts a few years back, and as you know come playoff time, those ref don't like to throw those hankys. So, who knows what the opposition will be able to do to those route runners you have.

-------------------

I'm not sure why you are discounting the level of competition you have played, maybe I have missed a post in another thread. The defenses you have faced have been woeful. The Cowboys finally presented a challenge, and yeah, you ran into a brick wall. But you have to be able to break that wall down. Eventually, that 21 to 5, IMO, will come back to bite you. Maybe not, maybe no one will find a way to slow that pass game down, and it won't matter. But my guess is you'll be in a dog fight, and you'll need to be able to run it. When you meet up with defenses that can stop the run, you might be in a bit of trouble.

As far as volume of runs, that as we know is a silly argument, since IIRC, you guys have run more total offensive plays than anyone else. I still say MANY of your runs come in the second half, late in games, to help it appear balanced. I don't have time to review all the play by plays, but I'll look for myself soon enough. I really am not trying to get your goat. Tippett's? Yes, but not yours. I respect your team, and especially your QB. In the end, I don't think I'm saying anything that wouldn't be said about the Colts if our numbers were swapped.

Thank you for your response. It is well reasoned, but the problem is that it is not backed up by the facts in this case.

You have mentioned that NE's balance is created by runs in the second half, and compared Indy favorably to this. However, as I said before, this is not the case. I randomly picked two games that both teams won handily, and this was the result:

Against Buffalo NE had a P/R ration at halftime of 13/21

Against Cleveland it was 23/20 at halftime.

Re: Indy, against NO they had a P/R ratio of 26/22 through three quarters and 4/6 in the 4th. Against TB is was 35/30 through 3 quarters and 2/11 in the 4th. It was also 25/16 at halftime.

In the four games that I sampled, Indy is by a wide margin the more pass heavy offense. You absolutely cannot say it is a concern with NE unless you say the same thing about Indy. The problem is, not only do you say this, but you even go as far as saying it is a concern for NE and it is an asset for Indy. That is beyond ridiculous. I think Indy's run game is better than NE's, but using one to say the other is a concern is like me telling you that Indy's passing offense is a concern because NE's has performed better.

With regard to Manning's kneeling, what you ignore is the fact that in four games (Jets, Buffalo, Clev, Dallas) NE has been in position to have Brady kneel, but instead chose to dust a RB off from the bench and have him run it into the line. I'm not even going to bother calculating the impact those 15 rushes fro 31 yards has on the average because we both know it would be at least the .25 yards that Peyton's extra kneels made.

Funny that you mention the Vikings, because not even trying to run is *exactly* how NE beat them last year and Minny never recovered. "Break[ing] that wall down" is the most asinine thing a good team can do. Frankly, Indy would never do that either. They would run to change it up (just like NE did) with little to no success (like NE) but they would move the ball through the air (like NE). Put it this way, Dallas played their base 3-4 defense nearly the entire game and they kept all four LBs near the LOS to stop the run. Along with that, they had a S shaded to Moss' side the entire game, forcing the other S (neither of which being any good a coverage) to protect 3/4 of the field by hmself. Why in hell would a team that is good at both running and passing choose to bang their heads against the wall when they can get Welker or Stallworth in single coverage, possibly with LBs? We know Indy would do the same thing, because they do when they are faced with the same thing. Just look at the TB game, when Indy gave a token effort to run the ball, but passed it twice as much.

Lastly, I never discounted the quality of defenses. In the post that you responded to, I touched on that:

Indy's opponents have allowed an average of 118.7/game while Indy has rushed for 142. 23.3 better than standard opposition.

NE's opponents have allowed an average of 121.1/game while Indy has rushed for 141.7. 20.6 better than standard opposition.

Sooooo, taking into consideration the quality of the defenses faced, Indy still comse out ever so slightly ahead. Again, I'm willing to grant you that Indy's rush O is better, but NE's is still very good. It is not a concern in the least.

Sorry about the length of this, but please respond to this with something other than gut feelings and incorrect notions that I already disputed. Thanks for your time.
 
Us vs. them aside. Both teams have, for the most part, stayed away from overpaying for crap. They give out the big contracts ONLY if they are earned. Marvin gets paid, but you get Marvin.

Anybody know what Chambers is gonna get in SD? He was making 5.1mil in Miami. That is crap.

Looks like we could pick pretty high in the draft? how do we not overpay? Maybe our pick wil be onsite and we can slip them the Kool aid.
 
Last edited:
this year the colts have been depending on the run...which has a large part to do with their rookie tackle...

the pats are not focusing on running, like the colts are, and the pats have not had their best runner out there the whole time either...where the colts only did not have addai one game
 
this year the colts have been depending on the run...which has a large part to do with their rookie tackle...

the pats are not focusing on running, like the colts are, and the pats have not had their best runner out there the whole time either...where the colts only did not have addai one game

The Colts aren't dependant on the run. They are using the run effectively. They've learned from years past that quick scoring drives are not always the best. It keeps your D on the field too long. Ugoh has nothing to do with the play calling. He has filled in well.
 
Thank you for your response. It is well reasoned, but the problem is that it is not backed up by the facts in this case.

You have mentioned that NE's balance is created by runs in the second half, and compared Indy favorably to this. However, as I said before, this is not the case. I randomly picked two games that both teams won handily, and this was the result:



In the four games that I sampled, Indy is by a wide margin the more pass heavy offense. You absolutely cannot say it is a concern with NE unless you say the same thing about Indy. The problem is, not only do you say this, but you even go as far as saying it is a concern for NE and it is an asset for Indy. That is beyond ridiculous. I think Indy's run game is better than NE's, but using one to say the other is a concern is like me telling you that Indy's passing offense is a concern because NE's has performed better.

With regard to Manning's kneeling, what you ignore is the fact that in four games (Jets, Buffalo, Clev, Dallas) NE has been in position to have Brady kneel, but instead chose to dust a RB off from the bench and have him run it into the line. I'm not even going to bother calculating the impact those 15 rushes fro 31 yards has on the average because we both know it would be at least the .25 yards that Peyton's extra kneels made.

Funny that you mention the Vikings, because not even trying to run is *exactly* how NE beat them last year and Minny never recovered. "Break[ing] that wall down" is the most asinine thing a good team can do. Frankly, Indy would never do that either. They would run to change it up (just like NE did) with little to no success (like NE) but they would move the ball through the air (like NE). Put it this way, Dallas played their base 3-4 defense nearly the entire game and they kept all four LBs near the LOS to stop the run. Along with that, they had a S shaded to Moss' side the entire game, forcing the other S (neither of which being any good a coverage) to protect 3/4 of the field by hmself. Why in hell would a team that is good at both running and passing choose to bang their heads against the wall when they can get Welker or Stallworth in single coverage, possibly with LBs? We know Indy would do the same thing, because they do when they are faced with the same thing. Just look at the TB game, when Indy gave a token effort to run the ball, but passed it twice as much.

Lastly, I never discounted the quality of defenses. In the post that you responded to, I touched on that:



Sooooo, taking into consideration the quality of the defenses faced, Indy still comse out ever so slightly ahead. Again, I'm willing to grant you that Indy's rush O is better, but NE's is still very good. It is not a concern in the least.

Sorry about the length of this, but please respond to this with something other than gut feelings and incorrect notions that I already disputed. Thanks for your time.


Hey O-

Instead of randomly selecting a few games, I took some time to check on the P/R ratio of NE. You chose a couple that were won "handily". For NE, pretty easy, take your pick :). Anyway, I came up with roughly 87 runs for NE in the first half, and 123 passes, with 5 sacks(total dropbacks 128). These numbers may not be exact but they should be close. For Indy, I just got through the first 2 games (not out of convenience to not report facts, just time consuming-is there an easier way?) Anyway, the Colts were 16/16 V. N.O. and 10/19 V. Tennessee. I assume your numbers for Tampa were close. I will look at totaling up all 5 of Indy's games. Just looking at NE's, it would appear to be skewed, but I understand, it is obviously working. I guess one of my points would be that in the past, this might be something that the Colts would get jumped for. "Manning is a stat freak", "you have to be able to run in the post season", "what happens when Manning has an off day, and the pass game gets shut down", etc...,

The kneels were interesting. Brady has taken a knee in two games just before the half. Meanwhile, (in the Tennessee game)Manning is passing (6 straight times) with 1:12 to play in the half, starting at his own 17, with 1 time out(IIRC). They made it all the way to the 4 yard line, but cut the time too close, and gained a FG, giving them a 16-6 halftime lead. So, while TB is kneeling (and his numbers are being removed to help team YPC {btw, I don't think I took out the kneels in the R/P portion, counted it as a run-helps the first half run total, IIRC}), Manning is INCREASING team pass numbers in first half. PM could have taken a knee, and those first half TN numbers would have been 10/13. Now, I understand TB was starting at his own 2 yard line(Cincy game), not sure what Dungy and Co. would have done, my guess is run it a time or two to see what happens. At first and 10 from your own 24, with :46 to play(Dallas game), I know what the Colts would have done there. The opportunities to possibly move the ball and score at the end of the half were passed up by NE, and attempted by the Colts-leading to additional first half passes for Colts, and fewer for NE. The other interseting thing about the kneels is that BB decides to take them in the first half, to protect the ball, and not allow the opponent an opportunity to score on a fluke play, yet in the 4th quarter, instead of protecting the ball in this same manner, he goes with a riskier play, and allows the ball to be handed off, and the runner to subject himself to a possible strip.;)

On the Vikings, in no way was I suggesting a different game plan, what I was referring to is, down the road, in the playoffs, when running the ball is a must, when you meet that brick wall, (or you anticipate that wall) you have to find a way. Rhodes and Addai did it AT Baltimore (stout run D) to help ice the game, Addai carried it the last 11 yards in the AFCCG, and the combo did it again to help wear down the Bears in the SB. Again, these are all points that our opposition would say about us, in years past, when Manning was lighting up the Scoreboard. In the end, it's what's good for the goose :)

As for the level of competition, and rush D's, you have faced the 23rd, 25th,29th,30th ranked defenses.

Indy has faced 1,14,19,21, and of course, 32nd. Tampa was 8th at the time we played them, and we all knew Denver sucked. Certainly you might be able to say that about an opponent or two of yours, but my guess is, they were BAD before you played them, and they were BAD after you played them. This week you will get to feast on #31.

Woeful might have been a strong word, but I still don't think you are as balanced (both pct. wise and effectiveness wise) as some might think.
 
Last edited:
Hey O-

Instead of randomly selecting a few games, I took some time to check on the P/R ratio of NE. You chose a couple that were won "handily". For NE, pretty easy, take your pick :). Anyway, I came up with roughly 87 runs for NE in the first half, and 123 passes, with 5 sacks(total dropbacks 128).

The point of a balanced attack is to force the opposing defense to counter both pass and run, effectively wasting players who are focused on a play which never gets called.

Any offense that has at least 40% of both types of plays has accomplished this by a wide margin.

The fact of the matter is that the Patriots have a more diverse array of passing plays than run plays. If we called 50-50 during the first half we would be OVER emphasizing the run and making it easier on opposing defenses which could focus on our run attack.
 
HBM,

I just totalled up NE's and Indy's P/R ratios for all their games so far. It looks like this:

NE

NY - 18/16
SD - 26/12
Buff - 13/21
Cin - 18/14
Clev - 23/20
Dal - 30/9

NE Total - 128/92 (passing on 58.2% of downs)

Indy

NO - 17/16
TN - 19/10
Hou - 14/14
Den - 17/11
TB - 25/16

Indy Total - 92/67 (passing on 57.9% of downs)

Even including the Dallas game, there is very little seperation in P/R ratios. If you exclude the Dallas game the figures are overwhlemingly in NE's favor (passing on 54.1% of downs).

That said, Indy has had two more drives than NE that would be considered "two-minute" type drives and in those, Indy passed on all of their 11 downs. If you take those out, things do move towards Indy moreso, but I don't think it is fair to do so. My reasoning is that NE is more willing to use a pass heavy set than most teams as part of a game plan, not due to any lack of success. To use the SD game as an example, they opened with a picture perfect TD drive out of the spread that consistent solely of Brady passes. Their second drive was also solely out of the spread. Other than those drives (and ignoring the one that included a 10 yard sack on 1st down when NE was obviously going to pass the next two downs) NE had a 13/12 breakdown the rest of the half. They chose to pass because it worked best, not because they couldn't run.

Sure I would like my team to be so unstoppable that they can run against 9 man fronts and pass even when every WR is double covered. But that isn't reality. Teams can and will take stuff away, it is up to you to counter their measures. Should Indy have been concerned about working the WRs more into the offense after the AFCCG last year? Of course not. NE took that away and Indy adjusted.
 
HBM,

I just totalled up NE's and Indy's P/R ratios for all their games so far. It looks like this:

NE

NY - 18/16
SD - 26/12
Buff - 13/21
Cin - 18/14
Clev - 23/20
Dal - 30/9

NE Total - 128/92 (passing on 58.2% of downs)

Indy

NO - 17/16
TN - 19/10
Hou - 14/14
Den - 17/11
TB - 25/16

Indy Total - 92/67 (passing on 57.9% of downs)

Even including the Dallas game, there is very little seperation in P/R ratios. If you exclude the Dallas game the figures are overwhlemingly in NE's favor (passing on 54.1% of downs).

That said, Indy has had two more drives than NE that would be considered "two-minute" type drives and in those, Indy passed on all of their 11 downs. If you take those out, things do move towards Indy moreso, but I don't think it is fair to do so. My reasoning is that NE is more willing to use a pass heavy set than most teams as part of a game plan, not due to any lack of success. To use the SD game as an example, they opened with a picture perfect TD drive out of the spread that consistent solely of Brady passes. Their second drive was also solely out of the spread. Other than those drives (and ignoring the one that included a 10 yard sack on 1st down when NE was obviously going to pass the next two downs) NE had a 13/12 breakdown the rest of the half. They chose to pass because it worked best, not because they couldn't run.

Sure I would like my team to be so unstoppable that they can run against 9 man fronts and pass even when every WR is double covered. But that isn't reality. Teams can and will take stuff away, it is up to you to counter their measures. Should Indy have been concerned about working the WRs more into the offense after the AFCCG last year? Of course not. NE took that away and Indy adjusted.

Nice job. Looks like I missed some runs for NE, or maybe I didn't count the kneels as runs. Anyway, it is slightly skewed toward Pats. With the balance of running and passing td's, and NE's lopsided numbers, along with the Cowboy game fresh in my mind, it just seems to me like your offense is predicated on the pass, with running as an after thought.
 
HBM,

I just totalled up NE's and Indy's P/R ratios for all their games so far. It looks like this:

NE

NY - 18/16
SD - 26/12
Buff - 13/21
Cin - 18/14
Clev - 23/20
Dal - 30/9

NE Total - 128/92 (passing on 58.2% of downs)

Indy

NO - 17/16
TN - 19/10
Hou - 14/14
Den - 17/11
TB - 25/16

Indy Total - 92/67 (passing on 57.9% of downs)

Even including the Dallas game, there is very little seperation in P/R ratios. If you exclude the Dallas game the figures are overwhlemingly in NE's favor (passing on 54.1% of downs).

That said, Indy has had two more drives than NE that would be considered "two-minute" type drives and in those, Indy passed on all of their 11 downs. If you take those out, things do move towards Indy moreso, but I don't think it is fair to do so. My reasoning is that NE is more willing to use a pass heavy set than most teams as part of a game plan, not due to any lack of success. To use the SD game as an example, they opened with a picture perfect TD drive out of the spread that consistent solely of Brady passes. Their second drive was also solely out of the spread. Other than those drives (and ignoring the one that included a 10 yard sack on 1st down when NE was obviously going to pass the next two downs) NE had a 13/12 breakdown the rest of the half. They chose to pass because it worked best, not because they couldn't run.

Sure I would like my team to be so unstoppable that they can run against 9 man fronts and pass even when every WR is double covered. But that isn't reality. Teams can and will take stuff away, it is up to you to counter their measures. Should Indy have been concerned about working the WRs more into the offense after the AFCCG last year? Of course not. NE took that away and Indy adjusted.
Thanks for providing the research since I'm currently at work. This only proves once again that He Ban Me talks from his ass. Meanwhile, the Patriots have a defense this year; the Colts can only dream of one.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/2_1135_Def._Hog_Index.html

Read it and weep Colts fans ..... your defense stinks!
 
Nice job. Looks like I missed some runs for NE, or maybe I didn't count the kneels as runs. Anyway, it is slightly skewed toward Pats. With the balance of running and passing td's, and NE's lopsided numbers, along with the Cowboy game fresh in my mind, it just seems to me like your offense is predicated on the pass, with running as an after thought.

I didn't count any kneel's as rushes, which I probably should have said. Also, I think you got it that those are all first half numbers even though I failed to say it in the other post.

That said, going through the PBP, I would agree with you that Indy is more balanced than NE is from a playcalling standpoint. Far more of Indy's drives are close to 50:50 on an individual basis. NE seems to make up their balance by going run heavy on some drives and pass heavy on others.

Whatever. So far it is advantage Indy in the run game. They can have a slight edge in rushing for NE having (IMHO) a much bigger edge on the defensive side of the ball. :D
 
Last edited:
I think the Cots deserve a lot of respect because they seem to have gotten better since last year, and thats a hard thing for a Super Bowl team to do, but I feel like this whole post is just an attempt to create a viable opponent for the Patriots. I truely believe the Patriots are in a league of their own this year and will destroy the Colts in a few weeks.
 
I didn't count any kneel's as rushes, which I probably should have said. Also, I think you got it that those are all first half numbers even though I failed to say it in the other post.

That said, going through the PBP, I would agree with you that Indy is more balanced than NE is from a playcalling standpoint. Far more of Indy's drives are close to 50:50 on an individual basis. NE seems to make up their balance by going run heavy on some drives and pass heavy on others.

Whatever. So far it is advantage Indy in the run game. They can have a slight edge in rushing for NE having (IMHO) a much bigger edge on the defensive side of the ball. :D
That's probably a pretty good point too, in terms of balanced play calling per drive. Was it preseason where I was wondering when they were going to pass?? Maybe at Carolina? seemed like there first 10 plays or so were runs.
Defensively, certainly have to give NE the edge, but I do think we have the necessary players and playmakers to by and large get the job done. Most Colts fans were thinking that if we could just be a middle of the road defense, we'd be in contention. I really like these tests coming up pre Nov. 4th. Jax doesn't score a ton of points, but I bet they like this match up, we'll see what the D is made of. Then of couse, even when everyone in the stadium knows the ball is going to Steve Smith, he can still take over a game (like at Chicago in the playoffs a couple years ago).
 
I think the Cots deserve a lot of respect because they seem to have gotten better since last year, and thats a hard thing for a Super Bowl team to do, but I feel like this whole post is just an attempt to create a viable opponent for the Patriots. I truely believe the Patriots are in a league of their own this year and will destroy the Colts in a few weeks.

Why would you think the Colts will be destroyed on their home turf?
 
Why would you think the Colts will be destroyed on their home turf?

At this point the 2007 Patriots appear to be one of the greatest teams EVER. They presently boat the number #1 offense and #2 offense, and look extraordinary in comparison to some of the other all time great teams.

CHFF points out that even if some of the Patriots key stats are halved for the next ten weeks, they will still rank as one of the greatest teams of all time.

Last week against what was then the league's #1 offense, they held the Cowboys to under 20 yards on 7 out of 10 drives, including 4 three and outs.

Great though the Colts may be, as of right now it would be surprising if they played the Patriots close. Indy has not yet faced a top ten offensive team (They gave up 24 points to #11 Houston) and their defense is suspect.

Jacksonville (#7 Offense and #8 Defense) will be a good test for Indy. If they can win by a couple of touchdowns, they'll alter my expectations.
 
At this point the 2007 Patriots appear to be one of the greatest teams EVER. They presently boat the number #1 offense and #2 offense, and look extraordinary in comparison to some of the other all time great teams.

CHFF points out that even if some of the Patriots key stats are halved for the next ten weeks, they will still rank as one of the greatest teams of all time.

Last week against what was then the league's #1 offense, they held the Cowboys to under 20 yards on 7 out of 10 drives, including 4 three and outs.

Great though the Colts may be, as of right now it would be surprising if they played the Patriots close. Indy has not yet faced a top ten offensive team (They gave up 24 points to #11 Houston) and their defense is suspect.

Jacksonville (#7 Offense and #8 Defense) will be a good test for Indy. If they can win by a couple of touchdowns, they'll alter my expectations.

You have faced 4 of the bottom of the barrel defenses. The interesting thing about them is, if you take away the games these teams have played against the Pats, they are STILL bottom of the barrel defenses.
 
You have faced 4 of the bottom of the barrel defenses. The interesting thing about them is, if you take away the games these teams have played against the Pats, they are STILL bottom of the barrel defenses.

.......and Brady has yet to get fully comfortable with the new WR's.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


Patriots Kraft ‘Involved’ In Decision Making?  Zolak Says That’s Not the Case
MORSE: Final First Round Patriots Mock Draft
Slow Starts: Stark Contrast as Patriots Ponder Which Top QB To Draft
Wednesday Patriots Notebook 4/24: News and Notes
Tuesday Patriots Notebook 4/23: News and Notes
MORSE: Final 7 Round Patriots Mock Draft, Matthew Slater News
Bruschi’s Proudest Moment: Former LB Speaks to MusketFire’s Marshall in Recent Interview
Monday Patriots Notebook 4/22: News and Notes
Patriots News 4-21, Kraft-Belichick, A.J. Brown Trade?
MORSE: Patriots Draft Needs and Draft Related Info
Back
Top