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Why the Colts are great


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However, IMHO, some of this is due to Indy needing to do this because they lock up their top guys.

They DO need to do this. But they are doing it extremely well. And when they play inexperienced players as starters, they also:

1. get those players more experience than they get elsewhere, allowing them to mature more rapidly.

2. save the roster spots that other teams spend on experienced veterans, allowing them to take more gambles on future prospects (3 UDFA starters would be a consequence of this)
 
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On offense, yes about the Colts doing well. On defense, I'd have to say the Pats have done better with draft picks. Even though we have 4 players on defense who are not home grown products, our draft picks are better IMHO. Our front line is certainly better on whole. I know that some Colts are going to argue about Freeney but he's really a rush specialist. I'll take our front three over that group any day of the week.

Take Sanders out of the mix and the Colts defense is an entirely different animal. I said it before and I'll say it again, it will be interesting to see how Indy plays Sanders against us. Last year, they kept him in the box for most of the game because we couldn't go vertical and it was effective but not a shutdown. We can go vertical now so I don't think that Indy can bring him up for the run like that anymore. If they do and are successful and disrupting our passing game, then it's over for us. If they play him honest, our run game might do lots of damage. It's going to be interesting either way.

I think the match ups between Indy and NE are the more difficult to predict this year than any other this decade.
Not sure that Indy needs to keep him there this year. Honestly, I think NE is addicted to the pass.
 
Every offense starter except Ryan Lilja was drafted by The Colts

Reggie Wayne
Tony Ugoh
Jake Scott \
Ryan Diem
Dallas Clark
Marvin Harrison
Anthony Gonzalez
Peyton Manning
Joseph Addai

On the defensive side, 9 of the 11 starters were drafted by the Colts, the two exceptons are Ed Johnson (who was a UDFA, still the Colts were the first team to pick him up, and Rocky Boiman, who just recently replaced a injured Rob Morris who was drafted by The Colts)


Robert Mathis
Raheem Brock

Dwight Freeney

Gary Brackett
Freddy Keiaho
Kelvin Hayden
Marlin Jackson
Bob Sanders
Antoine Bethea

So at this point 18 of our 22 starters were drafted by the Colts, and 2 were UDFA Saturday and Ed Johnson) That is a team built off of great drafting and great scouting.
Brock was drafted by Philly in '02. Rights relinquished July of '02.
 
Are you sure you're not a Colts fan? :)

Anybody who has read my posts knows that I am deeply critical of the Indianapolis Colts and their commitment to contracts with heavily back loaded cap ramifications.

But its time to acknowledge that the 2007 Indianapolis Colts are a great team.

This isn't to say that I think they are on the Patriots level (when they play I'll likely predict a 10-14 point victory for the Pats) or that they are locks to win on Monday (I'll be rooting for the Jags and I think they have a 35-40% chance).

But for a team with so much money locked up in the back loaded contracts of a few players, who lost their top offensive lineman, they are doing incredibly well.

I think that the performance of the Colts comes down to two things:

1. The development of players in their first four years or on their initial contracts into quality starters. By quality starter, I mean somebody who is starting games for them without creating a serious exploitable weakness at their position. Players who have not yet become UFAs are generally paid far less money than their talent would demand on the FA market. Since the Colts have to abide by the same salary cap as everybody else, they are able to use this discount to field superior talent.

I'd like to know if anybody maintains stats on this, because it seems like the Colts have an enormous lead over any other NFL Franchise in this department. If so, Dungy deserves enormous credit for coaching these players up, and Polian probably deserves enormous credit for identifying these players in the first place.

2. By choosing to field a small, fast defense, the Colts are use players that aren't greatly in demand by the majority of teams which are focused more on size. This allows them to pay less for these players who, coming out of college, are already comparatively plentiful. Again savings in one area allows to Colts to increase their talent across the board.

This year the Colts appear to have saved enough cap space to eat the back loading of Harrison's contract.

It remains to be seen whether the Colts have sufficient depth to make it through the season. Many Football folks believe that small, fast defenders have a much greater potential to get hurt, especially against hard nosed offenses.

But for the moment, I think that what the Colts have accomplished in these two areas is incredible.
 
Our pass/run is 204/202. Indy's is 165/157.

:bricks:
What's the ratio in the 2nd half? Ratio when leading by 17+ in the 4th?? What am I, stupid??:bricks:
 
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colts are not a great team, they are a good team...

the only reason the pats lost to them hte last 2 seasons is b/c the pats were nowhere near 100% of their previous seasons...now they are a BIT above those older teams...
 
Bar None - Bill Polian may be the best GM in the history of the NFL,Especially when it comes to picking players out of the draft and getting right guys in FA which are not really the makeup of that team,Its almost all draft and thats an incredible thing.

Like him or not Polian is the best decision maker when it comes to talent out of the draft with Pioli just a bit behind in second place.

Look at what he had done with the Bills and now the Colts and you really can't argue with the facts that he has what it takes,despite being a total jackoff personality wise.
 
I think the fundamental common thread between Indy and the Pats is building around the scheme and doing it very well. You see both franchises identifying good fits for their personal schemes and either acquiring the player or drafting and developing the player. I think that they are both very well coached. I think they are polar opposites in their brand of football, but are each the best at what they do. I think that when the two play it's a battle of which system is better As an inside linebacker in a 34 oriented defense myself, I obviously root for the patriots brand of football. I think it's a nice little battle of good and evil in my mind each time they play.

I like to say things like "If the Colts win this game, little kids in Pop Warner all over the country are going to think it's not OK to mug a reciever! They're gonna love offense and not defense! That defense is all about having a fast edge rusher and zone coverage! For the kids sake, the Pats have to win this game!"
 
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We run a much more complex defense, which is why BB prefers veteran presence however much less "cost effective", and have had a lot more success running it than Indy has had running theirs - which at the end of the day is what counts. They don't award Lombardis for developing your own talent. Besides which, Indy lets much of it go once the I'm developed bill comes due. The team Bill Polian constructed needed more than HFA, as the Steelers proved in 2005, they needed some matchup breaks to get their lone ring in 9 years with Peyton and Polian and 5 years with St. Dungy.

Right now they have 14 players on their roster who never took an NFL snap prior to this season including all 9 players they drafted in 2007. It's not something they were thrilled to do, it's what they had to do in part because of the way their roster is compensated/constructed and in part because Polian hasn't had much success with veteran acquisitions. Simon cost him $13M for 13 games and is still on the cap. They traded a 2007 2nd rounder for Booger McFarland in 2006 and he landed on IR this August at a cap cost of $5.5M.

We have 6 players on our roster with cap hits in excess of $4M. The Colts have 11. We have 21 players with cap hits in excess of $2M (our upper middle class so to speak). The Colts have 9. We have a handful of players on our roster making league minimum salaries. They have a bundle. If they again get matched up in the playoffs against teams that can't mount any kind of sustained offense or whose defense is below average or severaly impacted by illness or injury when they meet, then the model will likely work just fine once again. If on the other hand they face a matchup with an offense that can put up some points combined with a defense that can sustain physically disrupting their offense, they are back to bridesmaids. There is probably not an NFC team they couldn't handle. There are a couple in the AFC they would likely find themselves in a dog fight to get past. Pittsburgh, who beat them at home in the 2005 AFCC, NE who had them on the ropes through the first half in the 2006 AFCC before fatigue and the flu and a second tier receiving corps took it's toll, and SD if they do really get their heads on straight and play up to their paper talent.

They don't have a lot of battle tested depth. Their prior depth stepped up this season to assume starter roles when their home grown predecessors were allowed to walk. Addai is backed up by a kid from the CFL (another non draftee I guess), but I'm not sure they have a 3rd or 4th let alone 5th RB option on the roster if the injury bug bites hard. Same with their depth all across the defense, which they have already had to dip into when their starting MLB went on IR. If one of the WR or Clark goes down, not sure what how much damage that offense can inflict. They have been relatively lucky, comparatively speaking, on the injury front for the last couple of seasons. They were able to cover for Stokley because Harrison, Wayne and Clark are durable and Gonzalez is now in place. They were able to manage Sanders to get the most from his limited availability by using him against us and shelving him facing a weak schedule until the playoffs. Quite a few of their key pieces including Sanders got dinged up in week 5 but the game was well in hand and they've had a bye to get better. Now they face three extremely physical defenses in a row, two on the road, so we'll see if their luck holds out. Only one of those teams legitimately has the offense to hang with them though.

BTW there isn't much room left to restructure the Manning and Harrison deals because of all their previous restructures (which along with backloading Freeney's extension almost entirely account for the excess they will roll over this year). Deals for others will be creaping into backloadedness too and have to begin to be pushed out as a result unless a cash costly extension is forthcoming for Manning. His cap numbers for the last 3 years of his deal are $18-21M, with a little something already sitting in the to be voided years of that original 9 year but really a 7 year deal. And Sanders is up in 2008 (I believe if he voids 2009) and Clark is up shortly thereafter.

And lets not forget, Polian's system failed to meet the ultimate test until 5 years into an experiment to see if Tony Dungy could do more with less if they could just get favorable playoff and SB matchups. In the regular season in a weak division, he's da balls. ;)

No system is perfect. I still prefer ours to theirs over the long haul.
 
Do you have to even ask after getting so pwned by the cold hard football facts?
Apparently it is you who are stupid?? My guess is that the Patriot offense is much less balanced in quarters 1-2, and that by the 4th quarter, when your team is trying to burn clock and get out of there, the numbers start to balance out. Is this correct??
 
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Our pass/run is 204/202. Indy's is 165/157.

:bricks:

In the first half of the Dallas game, you passed roughly 27 times, ran 10, and were sacked twice. Pretty much a 3:1 ratio. My guess is the previous contests, while not identical, might show a disproportionate number of passes in the first half, agree??:bricks:
 
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Apparently it is you who are stupid?? My guess is that the Patriot offense is much less balanced in quarters 1-2, and that by the 4th quarter, when your team is trying to burn clock and get out of there, the numbers start to balance out. Is this correct??

This is true of most teams. While you will hear "analysts" say things like, "you need to establish the run" or "you run to set up the pass" the vast majority of teams - and this most certainly includes the Colts - pass to score and run to finish.

It is what it is.

BTW, I just looked up the PbP of Indy's NO and TB games. Against NO they had a P/R ratio of 26/22 through three quarters and 4/6 in the 4th. Against TB is was 35/30 through 3 quarters and 2/11 in the 4th. It was also 25/16 at halftime.
 
In the first half of the Dallas game, you passed roughly 27 times, ran 10, and were sacked twice. Pretty much a 3:1 ratio. My guess is the previous contests, while not identical, might show a disproportionate number of passes in the first half, agree??:bricks:

Not at all. Against Buffalo NE had a P/R ration at halftime of 13/21

Against Cleveland it was 23/20 at halftime.

Dallas specifically schemed to take away the run. It was foolish to continue to run at a brick wall and, frankly, Indy would have done the same thing. It was the right thing to do.
 
Sorry, but lots of teams develop young talent. This theory falls apart if Manning retires or is injured.

The Colts are good and Dungy is a great coach (although I don't like his holy roller side) but Manning makes it click. Brady does too. They both allow the teams to concentrate on the other pieces while other teams scramble for guys like Vinny T. to save their season and overpay for QB draft picks that never produce. You develop good O-lines for these guys and pick up skill players when you can (as both have done). They're good enough to get away with lesser talent while other teams are chasing impact players that often don't live up to the hype. The Colts and Pats have impact QBs at the position where talent can change the game.

Manning and Brady are once in a lifetime franchise QBs so enjoy them while they play because it will be over soon enough and we'll be back in the mix (hopefully doing better than some of these other brain-dead organizations though).

Generally I agree with you.

If Brady went down this team is not an elite team, same with the Colts and Manning.

That being said I think we'd still be contenders and question whether the Colts would be.

Our defense seems to excel regardless of injuries with different people stepping up their game and the coaches creating a team scheme to hide deficiencies.

And on offense with our receiving corps right now, even a mediocre QB would look good. No doubt we'd have a much simpler offensive scheme as well - so I think we'd be in ok shape.

All that illustrates that the Patriots are designed as a complete team with a strong "middle class" whereas the Colts have many thin spots given the premium they've placed on certain positions.

This is less distinct today with the Pats now having a premier WR that we didn't before, but overall the comparison is still valid.

None of this is meant as a knock on the Colts - it finally paid off for them last season whereas in the past it left them short of their goals.
 
BTW there isn't much room left to restructure the Manning and Harrison deals because of all their previous restructures (which along with backloading Freeney's extension almost entirely account for the excess they will roll over this year). Deals for others will be creaping into backloadedness too and have to begin to be pushed out as a result unless a cash costly extension is forthcoming for Manning. His cap numbers for the last 3 years of his deal are $18-21M, with a little something already sitting in the to be voided years of that original 9 year but really a 7 year deal. And Sanders is up in 2008 (I believe if he voids 2009) and Clark is up shortly thereafter.

The surplus that they have from restructuring Manning, re-signing Freeney, and losing Glenn is enough to eliminate the Harrison backloading. The Manning backloading can be delayed by signing him to a long term extension.

If both of these occur, and neither Manning nor Freeney suffers a serious injury, and their no name defense continues to hold up, then the Colts could have several more years of superbowl contention.

Obviously that's a lot of ifs. But I had predicted that their no name defense and Ugoh would keep them from wining a playoff game this year. Right now, I'm considerably less confident with that prediction than I was at the start of the season.
 
In the first half of the Dallas game, you passed roughly 27 times, ran 10, and were sacked twice. Pretty much a 3:1 ratio. My guess is the previous contests, while not identical, might show a disproportionate number of passes in the first half, agree??:bricks:

I would guess that you are wrong.

Wade Phillips (coaching genius at large) decided to take away the run and make Brady beat them through the air.

Curiously, not every team believes that its a good idea to force the best QB in NFL history to beat you through the air.
 
Lots of good commenst this whole thread.

Right now they have 14 players on their roster who never took an NFL snap prior to this season including all 9 players they drafted in 2007.

The expectation then is that Indy will get better as the season progresses. That' something we normally expect from the Pats, though not nearly as much this year. How much better Indy gets due to experience for its rookies may make a big difference come playoff time.
 
In the first half of the Dallas game, you passed roughly 27 times, ran 10, and were sacked twice. Pretty much a 3:1 ratio. My guess is the previous contests, while not identical, might show a disproportionate number of passes in the first half, agree??:bricks:

YTD we have a near perfect ratio of 204 passes to 202 runs. BB will flex/game plan based on the opponent, one game emphasize the pass more, another game the run is more predominant. After 6 games, it's almost a perfect 50/50 balance.
 
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