Why Steelers take Holmes over Jackson?

[Rene Vallieres]

Passing set-ups..

Route running is really, REALLY important. It's why Donald Hayes failed here, and it's why Bethel Johnson has continued to suck.

There are two things that are important for receivers, ultimately -- to be able to get open, and to be able to catch the ball.

Another reason why intelligence and route running is so important that hasn't been discussed is passing set-ups. Happens in every offensive series in the NFL. Even in High School, the better coaches work certain patterns on the defense in order to "set-up" big plays later in the game. A receiver has to understand that he must run the precise route called, even if he is not thrown to, because later in the game the offense will line up in the identical formation but one of the routes will change and result in a big play. Another reason for precise route running is because the quarterback relies on everyone being exactly where they should be as he goes through his reads. In Bethel's case, he often breaks off routes and actually gets open, but TB is not looking for him where ever he ends up and the result is a broken play. Because of this, I don't think TB really has the trust he needs to have in Bethel. He is simply unsure of where the guy will be and where he is going.

 

[Patriot Missile]

.

The best receivers in the game over the last 5 of so years are Moss, Harrison and Owens. Moss is 6'4, Owens is 6'3" and Harrison is listed at 6 feet, but I'm doubtful.


Yeah,they are all big but their rout running is second to none. Same with Jerry Rice,I bet back in 94 he probably had a 4.6 40 but his rout running,hands,smarts and leaping ability made him the best there ever was.

 

[R_T26]

though I love troy brown to even mention him with randy moss is ridiculous, despite the rings. as for jackson, he's only 1' taller then givens but faster, plus the key word is he's great over the middle, has the best hands in the draft, and knows how to get open. he's basically the same size as chad johnson, and dont compare him to other florida recievers because it was a different system. Both should be very good. But the denver game showed the pats need for a big reciever when in the playoff game brady was trying to get the ball to 5'9 trpy brown against champ bailey. when you have too many wide recievers that are small it forces brady to be nearly perfect with his passes. jackson has the abilty to go up and get it and can adjust to the ball. and the steelers were better with buress, buress just dissapeared in big games.

 

[Miguel]

FYI - Holmes was rated 26th in Gosselin's Top 100. Jackson was rated 33rd Given that Gosselin's Top 100 list "is compiled based on conversations with general managers, personnel directors, pro and college coaches and scouts", it seems rather safe to say that Holmes was the higher rated wideout by those in the know.

 

[R_T26]

true holmes was rated higher, but even the reports that have holmes ahead of jackson still say jackson is the only reciever in the draft with true #1 potential. they believe holmes is more polished but jackson has the most upside.

 

[spacecrime]

I guess I'm just stunned to see this on a Pats board. The Pats have won 3 Super Bowls with a lot of tiny WR's on their roster. The Pittsburgh Steelers just won a SB with Cedric Wilson and Randle EL and Hines - 5'11" - Ward.

Just how big do you think Jackson is? he is one inch taller and 5 pounds lighter than David Givens, one of those tiny WRs you mention.

I also am curious as to why the Steelers picked Holmes over Jackson, but it isnt because Jackson is too big, I'm sure. Probably the same reason they went with Randle El instead of Deion Branch: a heavy reliance on scouting services instead of a major in-house scouting deparetment that looks beyond the hype and is geared to find players specific to one team.

Congrats on the superbowl win. Congrats on not having to come to NE for the AFCCG, too

 

[Digger44]

I guess I'm just stunned to see this on a Pats board. The Pats have won 3 Super Bowls with a lot of tiny WR's on their roster. The Pittsburgh Steelers just won a SB with Cedric Wilson and Randle EL and Hines - 5'11" - Ward.

Getting rid of Pepsico Burden opened the way to the promised land.

Who did they draft? Santanio Holmes and Willie Reid - think they're worried about small WR's beating the jam? Watch some football. Small WR's usually slide through the jam like it's not there.

Tampa Bay had big receivers in 2003. They're history.

St Louis had skinny Bruce and "I'm 6' with my fingers crossed" Holt.

Baltimore's leading SB WR was Brandon Stokley.

When is this big WR insanity going to go away, because it's largely balogna. The first round of the NFL is a garbage bag stuffed full of failed big WR's. Most of them suck.

If Chad Jackson ends up able to escape the jam as well as Santonio Holmes does, it will be because he can make the same athletic moves that Holmes can make. It will have very little to do with his bench press, or his pounds, or his height.

Somebody in NE had better wake up because big WR's, which the Pats have shown a recent bent toward having, have been watching Deion Branch play football from their big WR couches. They've been Watching Troy Brown play football. What happens when Randy Moss and Troy Brown compare rings?

Your flirtations with David Terrell, Donald Hayes, Andre Davis, etc. are disturbing. Forget those losers. Right now, I have my doubts Chad Jackson will be any better than Jabar Gaffney.

Great way to flag yourself as anything but a Pats fan ("Somebody in NE" & "Your flirtations". Have no problem with that, you are welcome as long as you do not become a troll. The problem with your post is that there have been many great WR that fit a "larger frame". I guess according to your theory David Givens was a disturbing experiment. He didn't fit the little blue smurf image. So Givens must have been a bad reciever. The Pats have been using the bigger #2 WR for a few years now, and it has worked well. There is a reason that DG has a playoff TD record. But according to you thoughts, DG doesnt have any record.

The Steelers didn't win a SB for the sole reason of Burress leaving. As far as drafting Holmes, maybe they didn't want a WR who will push for the #1 WR slot right away. Holmes is similar to ARE physically. He is a sound compliment to Ward.

As far as Moss comparing rings, it is a give and take. Moss has a chance of going to the HOF if he keeps clean and dominates as he can. He has not yet had the type of team to get him to the SB. How did TO perform in our SB? Wow he stunk it up. Nope. It was McNabb who ran out of gas. There is no right or wrong WR type. It is a system that knows how to use the players it has correctly.

 

[Digger44]

Real good post even though my bias towards the Pats causes me pain typing that.

I sure hope you are wrong about Jackson. But you may not be.

I just hope NE fans in general give this guy a few seasons to develop, which is the norm for even most of the great receivers to develop.

real good post? did you take the time to read it?

 

[bucky]

FYI - Holmes was rated 26th in Gosselin's Top 100. Jackson was rated 33rd Given that Gosselin's Top 100 list "is compiled based on conversations with general managers, personnel directors, pro and college coaches and scouts", it seems rather safe to say that Holmes was the higher rated wideout by those in the know.

So are you suggesting that the Steelers took Holmes because he was rated higher by Gosselin

I think the difference between the two isn't so much route-running. Chad Jackson had 88 catches in 1 year. You don't do that if you can't run routes. I think the primary difference between the two is the ability to get YAC. You also can't ignore the succeess rates of Ohio St WRs in the NFL vs. Florida WRs. I'm curious who the Pats had as their #1 rated WR, but I guess we'll never find out.

 

[patchick]

real good post? did you take the time to read it?

How about re-reading the original post he was responding to, which said "I would have thought Steelers would have take the bigger, heavier but just as fast Jackson." He responded with an argument why "bigger" might not be a big part of the equation.

Heaven knows we get plenty of dumb trolls here, but I don't see why everybody's teeing off on a reasonable response from a Steeler fan to a post that was, after all, asking a question about the Steelers!

 

[Digger44]

How about re-reading the original post he was responding to, which said "I would have thought Steelers would have take the bigger, heavier but just as fast Jackson." He responded with an argument why "bigger" might not be a big part of the equation.

Heaven knows we get plenty of dumb trolls here, but I don't see why everybody's teeing off on a reasonable response from a Steeler fan to a post that was, after all, asking a question about the Steelers!

J4R posted the original question. Good Post. Sarge commented that Johnny Z's post was a good post, which it was not. Z's post was foolishness. I can't see how Sarge thought Z did a good post. Try reading that post. You are wrong. Sarge did not comment on the original post where I quoted from. The Z response was not reasonable.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Frankly we don't know what BB would have done if both were on the board at 36

But my feeling, having watched both of these guys on video extensively pre-draft when I was advocating for a WR - is that come opening day of the season, Holmes will be more ready to step in and contribute.

Holmes is at best, IMO a #2 WR - he is ready to step in now in that role. His skills and size are not such that he will ever be a #1 WR.

Look at the Steelers recent history with WR and you will see that they have often lost their #2 WRs looking for greener pastures. Holmes is less likely to rise to that level and could be a longer term #2 WR than previous Steeler WRs.

Jackson on the other hand, might require half a season to develop. He can, and will ultimately be our #2 WR this season - but possibly not right at the start of the season.

However, Jackson does have the skills and size to possibly be a 1 or 1a WR in the future. That presents better upside for the Patriots than Holmes does, and I think makes for a more desireable WR.

That's my $.02 - I could be wrong but that's what I said pre-draft and that's still the way I feel.

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

I guess I'm just stunned to see this on a Pats board. The Pats have won 3 Super Bowls with a lot of tiny WR's on their roster. The Pittsburgh Steelers just won a SB with Cedric Wilson and Randle EL and Hines - 5'11" - Ward.

Good point. I wanted the Pats to grab Cedrick Wilson. The Pats have changed the way I view WRs.

BTW, Hines Ward is listed at 6'0" 215 lbs

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12795

Getting rid of Pepsico Burden opened the way to the promised land.

Agreed. But there were more reasons for the Steelers winning than than that. Miami's shocking upset at San Diego and SD's fluke loss at Philly enabled the Steelers to get in the playoffs. KC's 14-3 loss at Buffalo helped too.

Who did they draft? Santanio Holmes and Willie Reid - think they're worried about small WR's beating the jam? Watch some football. Small WR's usually slide through the jam like it's not there.

"Watch some football" is a trollish thing to say. You sound like Colts fans defending Addai.

Tampa Bay had big receivers in 2003. They're history.

That is also due to a variety of reasons.

St Louis had skinny Bruce and "I'm 6' with my fingers crossed" Holt.

Agreed. Holt and Bruce are future HOF'ers and have one SBC and 2 SB appearances between them.

Baltimore's leading SB WR was Brandon Stokley.

The Ravens allowed an amazing 165 points in the 2000 regular season. That and the 2000 Giants were the worst team ever to represent the NFC.

When is this big WR insanity going to go away, because it's largely balogna. The first round of the NFL is a garbage bag stuffed full of failed big WR's. Most of them suck.

7 of the top 10 WRs in receiving yards are listed at 6'0" and over...

http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/RECYDS/2005/regular

Excluding Antonio Gates, 6 of the top 10 WRs in receiving TDs are listed at 6'0" or higher...

http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/RECTDS/2005/regular

Excluding Antonio Gates, 7 of the top 10 WRs in receptions are listed at 6'0" and over...

http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/REC/2005/regular

Many of the recently drafted big WRs have been stuck with bad QBs: Alex Smith, Michael Vick, Kerry Collins, Joey Harrington, and in 2005, a depleted Eagles QB corps.

If Chad Jackson ends up able to escape the jam as well as Santonio Holmes does, it will be because he can make the same athletic moves that Holmes can make. It will have very little to do with his bench press, or his pounds, or his height.

I agree. Then again you're assuming that Holmes will have little or no trouble adjusting to the NFL. Actually rookie WRs are more likely to have a tougher transition than most other positions.

Somebody in NE had better wake up because big WR's, which the Pats have shown a recent bent toward having, have been watching Deion Branch play football from their big WR couches. They've been Watching Troy Brown play football. What happens when Randy Moss and Troy Brown compare rings?

I don't see a recent bent. The Pats don't deliberatey target WRs because they are small or big. This explains much of the Pats rationale.

Jackson has obviously already taken steps to impress the coaching staff and earn the draft day call. Belichick and his assistants worked him out in Florida, leaving the star receiver parts of the New England offense to study. When Jackson visited Foxboro he was re-quizzed on his homework.

“They gave me the offense a little bit and I came back and broke down for them what they gave me,” Jackson said. “I ran it back to them on the board and film. They were the only team that did that for me. I thought that they were pretty interested in me. I had at least four or five visits with the Patriots and I felt pretty good on all the visits.”

Chad Jackson was a consensus 1st round pick by every major football media outlet. I still can't believe we got him the 2nd round.

Your flirtations with David Terrell, Donald Hayes, Andre Davis, etc. are disturbing.

You're way off. The first WR the Pats targeted last year was 5'10" Derrick Mason, who went to Baltimore for less money. After being spurned by Mason, the team picked up Terrell, who cost the Pats nothing. When Terrell turned out to be a bust, the Pats traded a 2006 5th rounder for Davis, perhaps out of desperation. BTW, Davis is a "skinny" WR (6'1" 195). Hayes had 52 catches in 2001 with Carolina. The Pats whiffed on Hayes but hey, even BB and Pioli are human.

Forget those losers. Right now, I have my doubts Chad Jackson will be any better than Jabar Gaffney.

You just touched upon my reason for Chad dropping out of round one. I assume that you didn't pull Jabar Gaffney's name out of a hat. Can you say "Anti-Florida bias"? Look at UF's recent WR track record...

Reidel Anthony
Ike Hilliard
Jabar Gaffney
Reche Caldwell

It reads like a Who's Who of busts. Though, in fairness to Hilliard, he played well when he was healthy, but he never lived up to his #7 overall pick status. In fact, there hasn't been a successful Florida WR in the NFL since Wes Chandler in 1978. Today, Florida WRs have the same reputation as RBs from Penn State.

Chad spent 2 years in the Spurrier/Zook system before playing in the conservative Urban Meyer offense in 2005, which brought his YPC and total rec yards down. Yet, he still led the Gators in receptions.

 

[madmike77]

The answer is simply because they liked him better. They weren't the only team that considered Holmes a better receiver. Bottom line is no one's going to know what the right choice was for a few years, especially since most rookie receivers don't tend to do much.

As for specific reasons why they took him, the word is he runs very good routes, works hard and despite his size loves to block (remember he played for an offense that was run-heavy like the Steelers O). I think the Steelers saw a bit of Hines Ward in Holmes.

Holmes is also a decent return guy, although with the Steelers also drafting Reid in the 3rd round Holmes' return touches may be limited.

 

[spacecrime]

The answer is simply because they liked him better.

Yeah, we know by the fact they picked him first that they liked him better. The question was: Why?

 

[madmike77]

The "why" is in the second part of my answer. If you want more, Jackson is generally considered a less complete receiver than Holmes at the moment, although he has larger upside potential. Supposedly there were also questions about his work ethic - ie. he doesn't block all that well.

He might have sounded too much like Burress to the Steelers.

 

[AzPatsFan]

.

The best receivers in the game over the last 5 of so years are Moss, Harrison and Owens. Moss is 6'4, Owens is 6'3" and Harrison is listed at 6 feet, but I'm doubtful.


Yeah,they are all big but their rout running is second to none. Same with Jerry Rice,I bet back in 94 he probably had a 4.6 40 but his rout running,hands,smarts and leaping ability made him the best there ever was.

Jerry Rice's speed out of Missippi Valey State was a 4.55, the same as Mike Hass who went in the sixth round due to "lack of speed". Scout's never learn that football players are not in their stop watches...

 

[Lloyd_Christmas]

J4R posted the original question. Good Post. Sarge commented that Johnny Z's post was a good post, which it was not. Z's post was foolishness. I can't see how Sarge thought Z did a good post. Try reading that post. You are wrong. Sarge did not comment on the original post where I quoted from. The Z response was not reasonable.

Although there was plenty of stuff in Z's post to criticize, I agree with sarge that it was a good post. His overall point was that far too many in the sport media and fandom are overly enamored with big WRs (same with scrambling QBs by the way).

Other than a few elite Big WRs who also happen to be fast, run good routes, and have great hands, most big WRs play a very limited role or just plain suck compaired to their smaller, faster, more agile smurf peers. Our own team has proven that smurf wrs can be very effective and that you don't NEED a big wr to be successful.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that a big WR or a TE to work the middle doesn't help. I only suggest that there is too much of a love fest over big WRs. That was also Z's overall point and a good one to my estimation.

 

[bucky]

Yeah, we know by the fact they picked him first that they liked him better. The question was: Why?

What? I thought they picked him first because Rick Gosselin liked him better.

 

[bucky]

Jerry Rice's speed out of Missippi Valey State was a 4.55, the same as Mike Hass who went in the sixth round due to "lack of speed". Scout's never learn that football players are not in their stop watches...

Jerry Rice was also quite possibly the hardest working WR of all time. That has something to do with his success as well.