Why Our Defense Needs More Help Than Many Think

[BelichickFan]

Regarding the point of the thread, sure we'd have given up more points had we played better offenses but when we played top offenses we played well generally. And we're already way improved from last year - we just need to hope to have league average injuries. If Harrison doesn't get hurt vs. Tenessee, we almost certainly win the SB.

Speaking of that, that's the other point I forgot in my previous post, half the real defense wasn't even on the field in the second half vs. Indy.

 

[zippo59]

Far be it from me to be a Colt's ballwasher, but one huge factor and kudos to him, was that Manning had an absolutely stellar second half of football.

He was making throws on the move and with great accuracy that I honestly didn't think he was capable of.

I think there were many times where when the pass coverage was very good and Manning was scrambling and buying time finding open receivers. Not folding up like a wet napkin as in the past.

So compound that with illness, fatigue, age.....I'm sure the Pat's for the first time in a long time, got demoralized.

Watching Manning hold Lomardi's trophy was a vomit inducing moment, but he deserved props for his performance during the AFC Champ. game.

I think Manning matured a lot in that he finally became patient enough and hit his check down receivers when nothing else was there. It used to be that if you took away his first few options he would get frustrated and would implode. He realized he didn't need a big play every time and started taking what the defense gave him.

 

[14thDragon]

I think the lack of athleticism at LB is WAY overstated. Do we need some younger players at LB? Absolutely. Is Bruschi still the same player he used to be. No, but he can still be a good contributor. People act like we have a bunch of bums, and that just isn't true. When have we ever had physical freaks at LB? The 3-4 defense values strength over speed when it comes to linebacker, especially ILB. Bruschi is on the decline, but I would consider Vrabel, Colvin, and Thomas all quite athletic.

It is not that they are bums, but you can no longer count on them to come up with the stop when you have to have it. They have not declined to JAG status, but as they lose a step here and another there the effectiveness goes down. As they get older, the cumlative damage gets worse and recovery time goes down. And effectiveness goes down, making depth a critcle factor. The scheme has always worked best when you can have guys come in a rotation and keep changing up what the offense is looking at.

Right now the Patriots have 4 starting quality LBs. Bruschi,Colvin,Thomas and Varable. Of those 3 are better suited for the outside and only 1 for the inside. After that you have Alexander, Izzo, Mays, Woods. A career special teams guys, a UDFA project that could work in roatation, and two UDFA who are really special teams guys until they prove other wise. Move to next year when Bruschi is likely to be gone and your situation further deterioates. Younger, faster and stronger lbs are needed to provide the critcle depth and give the veterans some breathing time.

The secondary is a simlar story. Hobbs ans Samuel are effective, Scott is alright, and Gay is fragile. Harrison has had injuries the past two years (these things start to add up), Wilson the same. Hawkins is decent but very beatable, Sanders is getting better. Beyond them, a whole lot of nothing. It is not unreasonable to expect that Harrison and Gay will be hurt again and that Wilson maybe is a flash in the pan. So, third corner and safety are needs.

 

[mgteich]

younger faster linebackers?

I prefer to have the excellent linebacker corps we have. Vrabel, Bruschi, Thomas and Colvin are excellent.

Are we saying that we need to replace Woods, Alexander and Mays? I'm OK with that. But the issue is not that Woods, Alexander and Mays aren't young enough or fast enough. The issue is that they are talented enough.

And yes, we will bring in a grizzled free agent in any case, in addition.

And, Izzo has a ST spot, not a linebacker roster spot.
------------------------------------------------------

BOTTOM LINE
------------
ALEXANDER or replacement
WOODS or replacement
MAYS or relacement

AND< who are the replacements?

 

[RayClay]

I wouldn't rely on perception because perception is not always true.

Well, nothing is completely true. For instance, BB thinks QB pressures are more important than sacks.

And a lot of people on the outside had the impression that TBC was the answer at OLB, when, apparently, he was just waiting to get exposed.

I saw an erosion of talent at LB with players getting older and less athletic.

Apparently there was something to my perception that wasn't borne out by statistics until the second half of the Colts game.

 

[TealSox]

It is moments like this that I appreciate Tedy Bruschi so much for what he has brought to this team. This conversation has been had and will get louder ever week till the season ends and the answers/solutions will only satisfy some and leave others with discontent. Some might forget what Roman Phifer brought to this team and how the Pats landed him and some others will take what Bruschi has done for granted. I was hard on Seau and Bruschi this year because they were clearly too slow to be playmakers and I just think that you have to have a playmaker at ILB and a leader (and it could be the same player).

Free agents have yet to solve the problem and I think that we are more inclined to draft ILBs than pick them up in free agency again. Biesel and Brown were horride and while it looked as if they weren't trying to figure out what to do, they just couldn't make the transition despite all the effort. I still think that the answer is out there in free agency moreso than the draft (where the solution may be less obvious). The quality produced at the college level as been poor in producing quality NFL MLBs. Who knows where the blame falls and why this is. Maybe the Pats just need to change the defense to match the quality of players available because i don't see another Bruschi or Seau coming around anytime soon (unless you like Patrick Willis).

 

[14thDragon]

younger faster linebackers?

I prefer to have the excellent linebacker corps we have. Vrabel, Bruschi, Thomas and Colvin are excellent.

Agreed on Thomas, somewhat on Colvin.

Vrable and Bruschi were elite, now are effective, and have only a year left in them at that capacity. (Rotating them will extend that out to a couple of years.)

Are we saying that we need to replace Woods, Alexander and Mays? I'm OK with that. But the issue is not that Woods, Alexander and Mays aren't young enough or fast enough. The issue is that they are talented enough.

That is the question, are they talented enough to step in when one of the starters goes down, I would say no to I don't know. Eventually the guys ahead of them will be gone and someone needs to answer the call, and I do not think these guys can.

And yes, we will bring in a grizzled free agent in any case, in addition.

I prefer the Patriots think more long term, someone that can learn the system and can start a year or two from now when Vrable, Bruschi or both retire.

BOTTOM LINE
------------
ALEXANDER or replacement
WOODS or replacement
MAYS or relacement

AND< who are the replacements?

Alexander - I would keep, he has developed enough to be trusted for a starter role.
Woods - Depends, I guess, if Vrable moves inside permantly, I would like a guy like Bradley or Woodly in this spot.
Mays - Willis, Beason, Harris or Siler
and
Another late rounder - Perhaps Woods or Mays, or maybe a guy like Bishop.

I am all for adding more, not neccisarily less.

 

[14thDragon]

10 charecters

 

[zippo59]

Mike Vrabel is 31, and will be 32 in August. Considering McGuinest and Phifer played for this team until 35, (and neither looked old) and Vrabel has been relatively healthy, I think he can play well for more than one year.

 

[Michigan Dave]

Well, nothing is completely true. For instance, BB thinks QB pressures are more important than sacks.

Bingo. As a former QB, I can't agree enough. QB hurries change the thought of the offense. If I'm dropping back and getting open looks, I'm feeling confident. I may get dropped 3 or 4 times, but it's a lot better than running for my life every other snap. You're dictating what the opposition does there, and forcing poor throws.

But hey, sacks look pretty in the statistic column and get you on ESPN.

 

[SunnyDenmark]

Just some general observations after reading all of the posts on this thread....

seems to be a big difference of opinion on whether 2006 Pats D was as good as the statistics said. The numbers say 'yes' but for many posters who watched all the games - the eyes didn't see the domination that was the 2003-2004 teams defense.

Well doesn't matter. The draft is coming this month so we MUST pick someone (4 comps + also pretty assured to draft somebody with at least one of our 1st rounders). So thats at least 5 new bodies, probably more. Not many needs on offense: pretty good depth and age is universally young. Most agree defense is the need and the age factor certainly screams for an infusion of youth (youth also usually = speed). Bioli has usually drafted for defense with the 2006 & 2002 draft the exceptions. The only real disagreement on the draft is which defensive position has the biggest need. Furthermore, how much will the Pats really draft for need vs. value.

One final mindless idea to end my ramblings.....several say our loss vs Indy was a bad collection of freak occurences not likely to repeat (travel, flu, injuries, bad calls (refs), tsunamis, alignment of planets, etc).

If one was a Charger fan - I wonder if they are not believing the same thing about their game vs. Pats : awesome but freak play by Troy Brown, bad penalties by Chargers losing their cool, hardly giving the ball to LT in 2nd half, going for it on 4th and 11 in the first half instead of kicking a field goal, etc, etc.

The bottom line for me is - every team has issues and needs help. Bill and Scott are some of the best in the business. So every oportunity they get to 'wheel and deal' (FA, draft, cuts, etc.) is just one more opportunity for the Pats to separate themselves from the rest of the other teams' shenanigans and tomfoolery (see Chargers handling of Schottenheimer, Lions Matt Millen, Al Davis, and on and on....). In Bill (and Scott) I trust....
GO PATS! :rocker:

 

[shakadave]

It was a once in a lfetime event that has somehow happenned each of the last 3 times we've played them, twice this past year.

There is plenty of room to use the draft and the remainder of FA to upgrade this team at LB and DB, especially up the middle at ILB and S.

Losing games because Rodney Harrison and Junior Seau are hurt is not bad luck. They have to be considered major injrury risks going into each season at this stage of their career. Maybe they stay healthy but counting on that is bad planning. Tedy Bruschi is also showing clear signs of slipping. Not having quality depth behind those 3 (and the TBCs of the world are not quality depth) would be a mistake.

I like a lot of what Michigan Dave said, too, but this post is kind of what I was thinking when I started this thread. I'm tired of always losing to the Colts! BTW, isn't it nice to talk about FOOTBALL?

 

[shakadave]

I don't buy that at all. There is absolutely no reason to tailor your team to beating 1 specific team.

Not to the exclusion of other things we need to be doing, but it has to be a factor.

It took a freak sequence of events for Indianapolis to beat us last year on their home turf. That doesn't mean there was a lot to be learned from that game- there absolutely was- but rather I'd prefer we fix the large issues (which are being addressed) and revamp the system to improve the unit because we are competing for a World Championship. I could care less what Indianapolis does/is doing. If we take care of our business, it's on them to beat us.

Yeah, but I still care what they and San Diego are doing.

Our front 7 is the best in the league.

Here's food for thought: maybe our front 7 is the best in the league, but it's not the best in the league at slowing down the Colts offense! I wonder --- and I don't know so I'd love to hear opinions --- is it the teams with the best BACK 7 or 8 that slow down Manning the most?

Our defensive backfield needs help, sure, but short from all-pros at every position, we're not in horrible shape.

No, but we do sort of horribly against the Colts, and make up for it against everyone else. I'm challenging us to rise to the next level in our secondary to restore the World Order to where the Colts can't beat us!

Asante is proving himself as one of the best in the league. Ellis Hobbs is coming on, and when Rodney and Geno are healthy,

Time out! We must stop counting on optimistic views of health in our secondary. Let's say if instead of when....

we have plenty of depth, because Sanders and Hawkins are capable. I think we'll address concerns in the draft, but I'm pretty pleased with our position right now. I sure as heck wouldn't trade rosters with Indianapolis.

. .. ... ....

 

[OhExaulted1]

I think Manning matured a lot in that he finally became patient enough and hit his check down receivers when nothing else was there. It used to be that if you took away his first few options he would get frustrated and would implode. He realized he didn't need a big play every time and started taking what the defense gave him.

Best post in this thread. At times I thought Manning was playing Brady-ball. He looked poised in the face of adversity instead of panicking. Instead of blowing out teams last year he had to come back in a number of games.

He's obviously spent considerable time watching Brady on film. He threw some deep balls in the first half, but instead of going for the home run when in a big hole in the 2nd half he got conservative.

I hate the Colts, but they are an excellent team. This is a great rivalry on par with any in proffesional sports. Is it Sept. yet?

 

[VJCPatriot]

I don't really buy your argument. I think our defense was excellent last year. The problem was that Seau got hurt near the end of the season and then Rodney Harrison got hurt on the last game of the season because a Tennessee player decided to play dirty. Stick those players in our defense for the playof run and I think you would have seen a far better second half vs the Colts. No way a HEALTHY Pats D gives up 30+ in a half.

That being said I think it is imperative to draft some backup measures to ensure that we have capable people in case of such big injuries this year. However it is nearly impossible to account for all possible injuries.

The Patriots could certainly build up more depth at positions like coverage safety and coverage linebacker - a position where we ran out of healthy bodies in the AFCCG. And don't tell me rookie LB Alexander is your idea of a GOOD choice to defend the middle of the field. The Patriots chose to play him because of necessity, not out of strength. I doubt we had enough healthy bodies to play a Dime defense as we should have been doing all second half, much less a respectable nickel D.

We need to stop referencing stats about how good our D was in 2006. We were very good, but not as great as it looks from our rankings in points and TDs allowed.

a) We played a weaker bunch of offenses than usual --- especially in the NFC. We also had a good enough running attack to keep the clock moving a lot (compared, say, to the year before) keeping our defense off the field sometimes.

b) We have reached a point like the Oilers reached against the Steelers when they gave up on Pastorini for a shot with Stabler. That is, we should focus on specific opponents we know we have to get past: the Colts come to mind. Even though our defense was very good in 2006, the Colts had what it took to overcome it on a regular basis. Rather than saying "our D was already great," or "our secondary is pretty good," we should say "We need a couple major changes to maximize the chances of ending our losing streak to the Colts."

c) Our defensive line is great, but a great defensive line still can't be expected to pressure the quarterback on every play, more like a third of the plays. We need great coverage LBs, and great DBs (Ty Law was our best ever anti-Manning) or we'll have a lot more Colts moments where the pass rush doesn't reach Payton, who throws for 30+ points against our Back Eight.

 

[Michigan Dave]

I like a lot of what Michigan Dave said, too, but this post is kind of what I was thinking when I started this thread. I'm tired of always losing to the Colts! BTW, isn't it nice to talk about FOOTBALL?

I agree. I am tired of losing to the Colts, too. However, it's suicide for a team to focus all attention on beating one opponent.

I want to improve our team based on weaknesses gathered from every loss on the schedule last year, and things we didn't do well in games we won. And improve based off of that. I don't care what Indianapolis or San Diego do. In 2007, in our mind, they should be catching up to us. We have that attitude, and we play 1 game at a time with it, we'll be OK.

 

[cstjohn17]

I agree. I am tired of losing to the Colts, too. However, it's suicide for a team to focus all attention on beating one opponent.

I want to improve our team based on weaknesses gathered from every loss on the schedule last year, and things we didn't do well in games we won. And improve based off of that. I don't care what Indianapolis or San Diego do. In 2007, in our mind, they should be catching up to us. We have that attitude, and we play 1 game at a time with it, we'll be OK.

IMO we are chasing the Colts, they have beat us three in a row and have been a better team overall for the past two seasons. I expect our defense to get 2 out of the 3 first day picks which should help in areas such as team speed and depth which caused us pain at the end of last year.

Looking at the 2006 team, I don't think it makes sense to simply gloss over the numbers. 14.6 PPG over 16 games is impressive, sure it all came crashing down in Indy but looking at 2003 & 2004 we had HOF players like Hank Poteat, Troy Brown, undrafted free agent Randall Gay and unproven Asante Samuel playing CB against the Colts but the team won so it was all chalked up to excellence in planning.

In the modern NFL no team will ever be completely dominant or without faults, which makes 3 out 4 that much more amazing. The difference between winning and losing is razor thin. Going forward the Pats have a very good QB, a very good coach, solid talent but so do the Colts and others. In the end it is not about being the "best" it is about playing the best in January.

The 07 team will be younger than most of our previous squads which should bode well for the future. We are our own worst critics, I am sure every team's backup, backup, backup safety gets killed as does their backup, backup LB. In many ways it is just as much attrition as it is talent.

Lets see what the team looks like May 1 and then September 1 before we get too worried.

 

[BionicPatriot]

Bottom line is you are making a half-arsed generalization. Bottom line is that Seau solidified the run defense and it ws the Colts RUNNING on the Pats in both the regular season and in the post-season that killed them just as much as the passes to the TE.

Um, no. It was Manning chopping the defense up in little minutes that did us in. I find it funny you think you know everything. So Harrison and Seau is why we lost to the Colts in the regular season? I didn't know having Harrison AND Seau on the field would've made the offense not turn the ball over 4 times. Nice spin, but your just flat out wrong.

Had Seau been available against the run, then that puts Manning in much longer situations and the TE and RB won't get open as much because they have to run different routes. And it allows the Pats to put different coverages on the field.

Um, ok coach. I'm sorry I'm arguing with someone who knows so much. So when the **** did Seau become a cover specialist? All the guy can do at this point is stop the run! He has no effect on coverage. But think what you will.

I suggest you go back and watch the games. Both the regular season AND the post-season. Rhodes and Addai ran all over the Patriots. This allowed the Colts to go into short yardage packages and make it easier for their TEs to get open.

No, we didn't lose because of the Colts running game. Wanna know the stat line for the Colts RBs in the AFC championship?
D. Rhodes AT.14 YDs.69 TD0
J. Addai AT.14 YDs.56 TD1


God, how insane! /sarcasm. They did little for such a great 1-2 punch. Wanna know Manning's stats?

P. Manning CP/AT27/47 YDs349 TD1

He passed ALL over us. It was because our LBs can't cover anyone.

Not true. The Pats have players that will play like Bruschi and Vrabel used to. Thomas is every bit as good as Bruschi was. Vrabel really hasn't lost a step. His best position has always been OLB.

Um, sure. Who are those plays? We have TWO, count em TWO LBs who are at good speed right now. A. Thomas and Vrabel. You really think Vrabel and Bruschi are that good anymore? Your just wearing Patriot glasses.

The Pats need to add someone who is stout against the run. Who can line-up next to Bruschi for the 1st 2 downs. Seau proved he can do this. Hartwell might be able to do it.

The Pats also need to add a MLB who is not old as dirt and can stay healthy. Seau proved he CANNOT do this.

Fact is that the Patriots need to stay HEALTHY, particularly in the secondary. That is why many of us are touring safeties and CBs. Because we recognize that. LB is an issue, but so is the depth at the CB and safety position.

You tell me one team that has so much depth that if it suffers injuries in the secondary it'll still be a good unit. None, absolutely none. We need depth, but it's not a dire need. Your insane if you think Harrison is great at anything anymore other then run defense. He was nothing great early on this season.

So, I hope next time you run around and say "FACT, FACT, FACT" You learn the truth. Thanks, and next time you wanna look like a fool again, feel free to do exactly what you just did.

OH, and while Sanders is ok behind Rodney and has played well, he's still got a long way to go. Hawkins and Scott, while they got the job done, can be improved upon.[/QUOTE]

 

[BionicPatriot]

Its not a BS excuse. Only people who have never played a sport in their life would call it that. And no, I don't believe you've played any sport except maybe peewee thumb wrestling 15 years ago.

There were a variety of factors that led to the Pats losing, not just one. So, how about you get a clue for a change and realize that there was no one specific reason the Pats lost. The reality is that there were a variety of factors, from the injuries to the flu to the exhaustion to the lack of depth at LB to the lack of depth in the defensive secondary to the lack of depth at RB.

In the 04 AFC championship game, Brady had a temperature over 100. He also tore the Steelers up that day.

Thoughts?

 

[SpiderFox53]

In the 04 AFC championship game, Brady had a temperature over 100. He also tore the Steelers up that day.

Thoughts?

One player on offense is not the same as half your defense, even if that one player is QB. In a perfect world, which that game against the Steelers was very close to being, the QB probably exerts the least amount of effort on the field of the 22 starters.