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Why Obama's stand on gay marriage is so brave and important

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patters, May 11, 2012.

  1. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This link does a fine job at summarizing the problem with the historically bigoted states. For those who pretend that the right isn't racist (just that black people are so stupid that they are being fooled by the Democrats), own up to the personal responsibility that your party, the Republican Party, is a party of bigotry. If you want, defend bullying, job discrimination, homophobia, racism, Islamophobia, but stop lying to yourselves about the reality that wherever your party is strong so is bigotry. Although there are a handful of anomalies, there's a clear correlation between homophobia and red states.

    Gay rights in the US, state by state | World news | guardian.co.uk
  2. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Funny Gay rights activist like to glom onto comparing themselves to the civil rights movement when polls that black people (overwhelming democrat) as a group are among the most opposed to gay rights.

    Are those black dems bigots?
  3. JPPT1974

    JPPT1974 Rookie

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    It says in an USA Today article that 51% agree with him. As you all know, he has been kind of brushing aside the question the past three years in office. But now, he has come out with that revelation.
  4. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    Why is that funny? or "glomming on"?

    It's actually pretty sad, when you think about it, I think.

    I'm not sure if you're correct that blacks are among the most opposed -- depends on what segments you want to look at -- but sure, many blacks are homophobes. I don't think that's any secret.
    Last edited: May 11, 2012
  5. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Trying to equate the 2 movements when the black people who were the focus of the civil rights movement reject the comparison.
  6. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Many black dems are apparently bigots, but my guess is that the obstacle has less to do with race than with religion. Religious folk are the obstacle across the board, and they have more influence in the Republican than in the Democratic Party.
  7. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    There was nothing courageous about Obama's move on GM. It was politically expedient and timely. What the hell is he supposed to do? Use his political capital stupidly? And I do mean "capital" as he showed at Clooney's house the next night. You think everyone in that shack didn't have a heads-up before the "announcement"?
  8. IcyPatriot

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    #87 Jersey

    Funny thing is it was all planned and they tried to make it look spur of the moment ... but goofball Biden screwed it up ... :rofl: Oh well ... regardless of the timing or intent it is the right thing IMO.
    Last edited: May 12, 2012
  9. PatsFanInVa

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    Yeah, that would be like anti-choice people trying to coopt the memory of the Holocaust to push their "aspirin between the knees"/the-state-says-bear-your rapist's-young agenda.

    Since the majority of Jews vote pro-choice, there's no possible comparison, by your lights, 13.

    By my lights, the problem with the comparison is not popularity among the group that suffered the previous indignity; the problem is there's no comparison from first principles.

    By contrast, treating people equally means blacks, gays, etc. Equality is equality. Folks you guys hate like Jackson and Sharpton have figured that out and as the saying goes, "evolved." I wonder what those polls look like today.

    PFnV
  10. DarrylS

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    If he loses the election over this, it would be OK as I knew he stood on the side of justice, equality and the constitution and did not pander to the religious right who want this country to be some type of theocracy...

    Factoid of the day, did you know that Thomas Jefferson, a unitarian, took a bible and cut and pasted all of the passages of the new testament and put them in sequential order. Interestlingly he left out the immaculate conception and the resurrection... next time someone argues what our founding fathers intended will have to remember that..
    Last edited by a moderator: May 13, 2012
  11. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Of course he used it in a timely and politically expedient way. Are you saying that he would have been more courageous if he made the announcement in a way that garnered less publicity and less support for the issue? What's courageous about that?
    Last edited: May 12, 2012
  12. PatsWSB47

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    Look it, there's something to that, sure. An analogy might be where Lincoln also played a little both sides of the middle on slavery until he thought he could pull it off. Thing is he wound up losing his life when the last straw for Booth was his advocating the right to vote for some blacks. That was brave Patters.

    The instant contrast between him and all other republicans regarding gay marriage is disingenuous by the Dems. Until a couple of days ago Obama and Biden both were insistent that marriage was between one man and one woman. Sounds awfully republican talky pointy doesn't it? How many republicans are equally afraid of not being timely with their base? How many are waiting for that politically expedient moment that won't be political suicide? More than some disingenuous Dems would like to admit. Instead now they can act like he's always been for gay marriage and pubies never have and never will. His announcement now is important I'll give you that, but brave? not so much.
  13. DarrylS

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    I view it as brave for reasons already mentioned, this could cause him the election..

    Consider the context, it could be a good political move.. contrast Obama's comments to last week when Romney was pressured to get rid of Grenell by Bryan Fischer( a religious whack job), then after Romney got rid of him he was cajoled by Fischer as being weak... this week Romney was accused of beating up a gay kid... later today Romney is speaking at the commencement of Liberty University..

    Politicians pander, unfortunately, during these never ending election cycles.. it will, in all probability, get worse and this is a microcosm of what is to come.
  14. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Patters, you and I have different standards for the use of the word "brave". Ellen DeGeneris and Adam Lambert are not "brave" to come out of the closet. I reserve it for kids fighting a deadly disease, people who rush into a burning building to save someone who can't get out, a kid in school who faces up to a bully knowing he could get his but kicked, Beowulf taking on Grendel, soldiers who charge up a beach cliff to take out a German gun nest, even a little girl trying out for an all-boy's baseball team....stuff like that. What Obama did poses no threat to his or his family's life or health. He will be a millionaire and set for life no matter what. What he risks is the possibility of upsetting enough people to cause him to lose an election and he will no longer be the President of the United States. You may think that would be bad for the country, but it will have no effect on his life. In fact, it might end up saving it in the long run. I have always had a concern that he would be killed if elected. He is the most hated president I can remember (except for maybe Nixon) and that was before he ever set foot in the Oval Office. I think Obama is brave for other reasons but not for saying that gays should be allowed to marry. A little scale would be appropriate.
  15. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If Obama looses the election the liberals will blame "Homophobia" when in reality Obama sucks as a President on everything from the Economy to "The Obama Wars" especially the economy.


    Gitmo...........:singing:
  16. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If Obama wanted to play it safe, he would have come out forcefully for civil unions. It is anyone's guess as to how much his support of marriage will help or hurt him. He took a courageous stand the day after a state he won in 2008 voted against gay marriage by a 3-2 margin. His stand makes it harder for other dems to oppose gay marriage, and chances are many of them will come on board. Polls show so far, and I'm sure Obama did his own polling, that his stand did not cost much, but there are more democrats and independents who are less likely to vote for him than there are republicans and independents who are more likely to vote for him as a result of his stand. What he did was brave in the context of politics, just as a worker who stands up against racism or sexism is brave in the context of the workplace.
  17. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    The validity of the comparison lies in its merits or lack thereof, not what some blacks 50 years later say.

    Still not sure how it's funny, though.
  18. PatsFanInVa

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    I loved when Keith Ellison was sworn in using a Qur'an. Know why it's not a big fat right-wing talking point? It was Jefferson's Qur'an.
  19. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The kind of bravery you're talking about is relative to the individual. Years ago, I met a woman who loved sky sports (like sky diving) and I told her that I was living in a foreign country (I lived in Norway at the time). She said, "I'd never have the nerve to live in a foreign country." I work with people unafraid of physical confrontation but do not have the courage to stand up to authority, even to their parents.

    By that measure, the only people who are brave are those who are forced outside of their comfort zone. If I had to break up a brawl, it would be hard for me, so it would brave of me. If I had to run into a burning building to rescue a friend, it would be very difficult for me, so it would be brave of me. If challenged my boss at the risk of being fired, that would be less difficult for me, so it wouldn't be brave.

    What Obama did was objectively brave from a political context because there are significant risks, especially given that NC just voted 3-2 against gay marriage; from an individual context obviously politics doesn't scare him.
    Last edited: May 12, 2012
  20. DarrylS

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    The "Judeo Christian Traditions" of our founding fathers..
  21. Harry Boy

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  22. Real World

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    "Brave" would have been to state his support when it wasn't politically expedient to do so. His "evolution" is nothing more than political gamemanship. Personally, I think this is how he's always felt. I obviously can't say that for sure though.

    So was Dick Cheney "brave" when he supported gay marraige in 2009?

    No matter how Patters wants to slice it, the most bigoted people are blacks. 70% of which voted in support of the ban on gay marraige in California. :p

    What I'm really curious about, is the internal polling that lead to all this. This is either A) another ploy to change the subject from the economy, to a social issue of some sort, or B) a rouse to enthuse the base. That either means there's a distinct enthusiam gap they need to correct, the economy is a big time losing issue for Obama, or they see a path to victory by bringing issues like this to the forefront of the campaign. Personally, I'd guess their numbers show a less than enthused base. Why else would you come forward with this "evolution"? While the general public might be 50/50 on the issue, or indifferent as it pertains to a presidential election, it would seem to me that in the swing states, this could potentially hurt more than it helps. States like Ohio, Virginia, NC, Colorado, Florida, etc. on the surface seem like states where this issue would be less favorable to his latest position. I'm guessing anyway.


    Next up, immigration.
  23. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You're projecting, RW, and you didn't bother to read what I wrote. I said obviously blacks are bigoted when it comes to gay rights, but unlike you I don't see bigotry as having to do with skin color. Blacks are twice as likely to be regular churchgoers and whites, and it seems homophobic bigotry is a religious phenomenon more than a secular one. But, it's worth noting that you seem to think it has to do with skin color. Perhaps if you get a dark tan, you'll become more homophobic. :)

    As far as Obama goes, your point is really nonsense, since he made his statement the day after NC voted 3-2 against gay marriage. Why do you think he should make the announcement at an even more politically inexpedient time? What purpose do you see that as serving, other than perhaps your own views (assuming you have a dark tan)?

    Of course, Cheney was brave for his stand on gay marriage, but it would have been braver if he had taken that stand when he had political power. Nonetheless, given his important position as a member of the far right, he deserves credit for taking that stand. It was a politically brave choice by him and probably cost him some credibility in some of his political circles.

    Last edited: May 12, 2012
  24. Real World

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    It's my opinion Patters. One that is based on facts, more than you like to admit to. ;)

    I love how you've even fallen to the point where you excuse (and actually celebrate) political gamesmanship, over actual leadership on an issue. Especially one that I would surmise is extremely important to you. My oh my, the depths to which the party driven will sometimes sink themselves to. :nono:
  25. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    Most homophobic or bigoted in other ways?

    If homophobic / bigoted towards gays, where did other segments vote on gay marriage -- hispanics, Mormons, evangelicals? what about simply Republicans -- were they under 70%?

    Any demographic data on the vote in NC for, say, uneducated / poor / rural white areas? Wouldn't surprise me if the vote in some places / among some demographics was more than 70% against gay marriage.
  26. Roland

    Roland Rookie

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    Obamy is worried one of his kids may be gay I think.
  27. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Yes, they did.....and that was in 2008 when, according to Pew, only 26 percent of black people favored gay marriage and 63 percent were opposed.

    The same Pew poll today shows that 39 percent of African-Americans favor gay marriage and 49 percent are opposed.

    That's a fairly dramatic increase in a relatively short period of time.

    People change. Ideas change.

    Many blacks shrug off Obama's new view on gays - Boston.com
  28. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    He's a phony liar the whole world knows it, he's using the Gay Community to get votes, it's good old Chicago Politicis.
  29. PatsWSB47

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    I agree and I made the point earlier that things are evolving. I think though that your stats also suggests that as the public acceptance of gay marriage index goes up, the bravery index for coming out in favor of it goes down.

    To be fair if NC had voted 3-2 in favor of gay marriage and Obama chose that moment to come out of the gay marriage acceptance closet then he'd be the ultimate wimp to me. Instead he decided to marginalize those results and come out anyway. The thing is to me is, if he was waiting for North Carolina to come around to it then he's picking the wrong state to base it on. He knew though that he could still get away with the endorsement because its probably a given that NC isn't considered a pro gay marriage state anyway.

    It's all positive for gay marriage anyway but I'm not looking at this as a big heroic moment. On the contrary, NC not withstanding it looks more like a political calculation than a sincere change of heart...or maybe he was just being insincere with his one man one woman stance. Either way I'm inclined to think it was unprincipled because of the political expediency. Patters says the timing is proof he's brave. I say he thinks the wind is blowing just right.

    Somebody had to be the first President to endorse it so i'll give him props for that. If not Obama then probably the next president. No stopping the inevitable. Chances are this will not even be a serious issue with the next election go around.
    Last edited: May 12, 2012
  30. IcyPatriot

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    #87 Jersey

    Nothing the man does is sincere IMO ... other than feeling for his family I truly believe this man is a robot.

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