Why no love for Bill 'o Brian?

[Ring 6]

Eh, Obrien has been good most of the year but yesterday was pretty ugly. 3 of our pts came off Arrington's pick at midfield and the last 7 were all TFB. That leaves 10 points between the first and last drives.

You mentioned BJGE, well BJGE and Ridley combined for 17 carries yesterday despite averaging 4.5 ypc. That's pretty inexcusable when Brady was running for his life and getting careless with the ball.

Brady wasmt careless with the ball, his arm was hit while he was throwing twice, causing the ball to go other than where it was intended or would have.

41 pass attempts (plus 3 sacks makes it 44 drop backs) to 27 runs (4 of them were QB dives), you need more balance than that especially when your run game is working and the pass is struggling.

As we are seeing this year, Brady's 4 picks from last year was a fluke on a team that relies so heavily on the pass... alot of those deflections that fell harmlessly to the ground are ending up in defenders hands this year because it's going to hurt you eventually. BOB has to commit to the run game sooner than later or we're in trouble playoff time and probably looking at another 1 and done.

I thought we ran too much yesterday and it slowed the offense down actually. DCs are saying they want us to run 60 times a game because its better than having the ball in Brady's hand. You seem to want to give them their wish?

 

[Ring 6]

Fortunately the Pats actually have the 'hosses' to implement a run first strategy this year when they want to. This offensive line's strength is run blocking. The rookie Solder has played up to his billing, and we're likely to get Vollmer back after the bye. Waters has also been rock solid as a free agent pickup. I mean wow, how nice is it to have an RG that you don't have to worry about?

BJGE and Ridley clearly are an upgrade over BJGE + Morris. And Woodhead is still our 3rd down back.

Its hard to praise an OC when your offense has its lowest point output of the season, and 3 of those 20 points were gift wrapped due to Romo's interception.

Its also hard not to praise an OC when you punt twice, convert 8/13 on 3rd down, hve over 370 yards of offense which clearly would have been over 450 is not for:
*A fumled Kick return
*A fumbled completed pass for a first down
*2 Ints which only happened because the QBs arm was hit while throwing

None of those are play calling and without those we would have easily scored at least 13 more points.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Brady wasmt careless with the ball, his arm was hit while he was throwing twice, causing the ball to go other than where it was intended or would have.


I thought we ran too much yesterday and it slowed the offense down actually. DCs are saying they want us to run 60 times a game because its better than having the ball in Brady's hand. You seem to want to give them their wish?

The answer isn't to run 60 times a game. The answer isn't to pass 60 times a game. The answer is balance. If teams are going to come after Brady and not respect the run we are giving them what they want. That's exactly how the Jets beat us last year. So by running less you're saying you want us to drop Brady back 50+ times a game, that's just not going to get it done in January in case you didn't notice by now.

 

[Ring 6]

The answer isn't to run 60 times a game. The answer isn't to pass 60 times a game. The answer is balance. If teams are going to come after Brady and not respect the run we are giving them what they want. That's exactly how the Jets beat us last year. So by running less you're saying you want us to drop Brady back 50+ times a game, that's just not going to get it done in January in case you didn't notice by now.

Pass/run ratios have nothing to do with what has happened in the last 2 Januarys.
We have the best passing offense in the NFL. Of course we want balance, and we have had that lately, but at times yesterday we ran too much, and were not running into defenses that were overloaded with DBs.
If we face a base D we should throw all day long. If we face a DB heavy D we should run more. Up until the last drive we had 32 passes and 26 rushes. That is very, very run heavy, and not what works best for our O, in case you didn't notice.

 

[drew4008]

Last drive, yes. Rest of the game? No. We had 13 points up until that... for an offense with this talent, that's unacceptable. Granted, the OL did have its worst game of the year by far.

Some of those run calls were abysmal. On 4 drives, we ran the ball on 2nd and long and got stuffed, resulting in 3rd and longs... most of which we couldn't convert on. I don't think there's a call I hate worse than 2nd and long run plays... they almost never work, and then you're telling the defense exactly what you're forced to do on the subsequent 3rd down. Very Paul Hacket-esque.. just brutal.

 

[ausbacker]

Brady wasmt careless with the ball, his arm was hit while he was throwing twice, causing the ball to go other than where it was intended or would have.

Brady made a poor throw on the 2nd interception. That was careless. The first was just bad luck.

I thought we ran too much yesterday and it slowed the offense down actually. DCs are saying they want us to run 60 times a game because its better than having the ball in Brady's hand. You seem to want to give them their wish?

Bulldust. Running the ball and running the ball well gives the Patriots are different dynamic to the offense. It's not what it sets up on a particular play but what it sets up for the rest of the game.

Then again, I'm not surprised you'd hold this position.

 

[Ring 6]

Last drive, yes. Rest of the game? No. We had 13 points up until that... for an offense with this talent, that's unacceptable. Granted, the OL did have its worst game of the year by far.

Some of those run calls were abysmal. On 4 drives, we ran the ball on 2nd and long and got stuffed, resulting in 3rd and longs... most of which we couldn't convert on. I don't think there's a call I hate worse than 2nd and long run plays... they almost never work, and then you're telling the defense exactly what you're forced to do on the subsequent 3rd down. Very Paul Hacket-esque.. just brutal.

If you say running on second and long should not be an option didn't you just turn 2nd and long into the problem you don't want to create on 3rd and long.
Getting 3 yards makes 3rd and 7 much more makable that 3rd and 10, and being willing to run on 2nd and long makes the pass more viable in those situations when you use it.

For the record, here were our 2nd and long plays:
2-9-DAL 46 (11:38) 22-S.Ridley right guard to DAL 30 for 16 yards (43-G.Sensabaugh).

2-11-DAL 31 (10:35) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 81-A.Hernandez to DAL 25 for 6 yards (90-J.Ratliff).

2-8-DAL 31 (14:02) (No Huddle) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 84-D.Branch to DAL 19 for 12 yards (21-M.Jenkins). Penalty on DAL-32-O.Scandrick, Defensive Holding, declined.

2-18-DAL 18 (12:56) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 84-D.Branch.

2-9-DAL 48 (9:36) (No Huddle) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 84-D.Branch [93-A.Spencer]. PENALTY on DAL-93-A.Spencer, Roughing the Passer, 15 yards, enforced at DAL 48 - No Play.

2-15-DAL 38 (9:23) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 81-A.Hernandez to DAL 22 for 16 yards (43-G.Sensabaugh).

2-10-NE 38 (12:41) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 32 for -6 yards (94-D.Ware).

2-10-NE 17 (5:42) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 83-W.Welker to NE 23 for 6 yards (50-S.Lee).

2-10-DAL 34 (1:30) (No Huddle) 39-D.Woodhead right tackle to DAL 29 for 5 yards (90-J.Ratliff; 93-A.Spencer).***converted 3rd and 5

2-8-NE 39 (11:11) 39-D.Woodhead up the middle to NE 38 for -1 yards (57-V.Butler).***converted 3rd and 9

2-10-DAL 33 (9:19) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left intended for 81-A.Hernandez INTERCEPTED by 50-S.Lee [57-V.Butler] at DAL 26. 50-S.Lee to DAL 32 for 6 yards (72-M.Light; 83-W.Welker).

This appears to TOTALLY CONTRADICT your post.

We had 11 2nd and longs.
We only ran on 3 of them.
We gained 16 on 2nd and 9 run.
We gained 5 on 2nd and 10, followed by a conversion on 3rd and 5
We lost 1 on 2nd and 8, followed by converting 3trd and 9.
In fact there wasn't a single instance where we ran on 2nd and long and it didn't end up working out.

On the other hand, we threw 8 times.
We had
1 sack (didnt convert 3rd)
1 Int
1 D penalty
4 competions for 6 (converted 3rd) 12,16,6 (converted 3rd)
1 incompletion (didnit convert 3rd)

So out of 11 2nd and long opportunties, we ran 3 times and ended up with a first down all 3.
We threw 8 and ended up with a 1st down 5 times.
We were 8 of 11 converting 2nd and long, and the only times we failed were passes that resulted in a sack an incomplete and an Int (caused by Bradys arm being hit)

The only rating you could give 2nd and long play calling is fantastic.

I don't know where your precpetion that we run a lot on 2nd and long and it works out poorly comes from. Maybe the Cowboys offense?

 

[Ring 6]

Brady made a poor throw on the 2nd interception. That was careless. The first was just bad luck.

Wrong. He was hit in the arm. The recveiver was open, but getting hit in the arm as he was throwing caused the ball to travel much less farther than it would have. Its pretty basic, just watch the play.

Bulldust. Running the ball and running the ball well gives the Patriots are different dynamic to the offense. It's not what it sets up on a particular play but what it sets up for the rest of the game.

Then again, I'm not surprised you'd hold this position.

Gratitous out of context insult aside, no one said don't run the ball. We ran it too much yesterday and it slowed down the offense. Before the last drive it was 32 passes to 26 runs. We have the best passing game in the NFL. We need to use it more. Something in between yesterday and the Miami game is what is called for, not taking the ball out of Bradys hands to run more.

 

[ausbacker]

Wrong. He was hit in the arm. The recveiver was open, but getting hit in the arm as he was throwing caused the ball to travel much less farther than it would have. Its pretty basic, just watch the play.

It was a poor decision and a poor throw. Accept that and move on.

Gratitous out of context insult aside, no one said don't run the ball. We ran it too much yesterday and it slowed down the offense. Before the last drive it was 32 passes to 26 runs. We have the best passing game in the NFL. We need to use it more. Something in between yesterday and the Miami game is what is called for, not taking the ball out of Bradys hands to run more.

Did I miss the Patriots move the ball at will on the high ranked Cowboys run Defense yesterday or were we not watching the same game? Ridley started off on fire then Green-Ellis in effect, did what he wanted on the Cowboys. I've been calling for a more balanced offense for some time, so you're not going to help me budge from that position for any mentality.

I have no issue with the ball in TB12's hands. He's in the discussion for GOAT. However, the threat of an effective running game for today and tomorrow CANNOT be understated.

We do not need to use the passing game more. Along with the run, we need to use them effectively.

The Offense with an effective running game is more dynamic than the Offense overusing the passing game.

 

[The-Hooded-One]

Sure wasn't a fan of running two straight draws with BJGE with first and goal at the 10 yard line.

 

[Ring 6]

It was a poor decision and a poor throw. Accept that and move on.

Why would I accept something that is 100% wrong.
WATCH THE PLAY.

Did I miss the Patriots move the ball at will on the high ranked Cowboys run Defense yesterday or were we not watching the same game?

They had 13 points in 59 minutes. Thats what you are looking for?

Ridley started off on fire

Ridley had a 16 yard run and ended 3 for 19.

then Green-Ellis in effect, did what he wanted on the Cowboys.

He wanted to avg 4.1 on his was to 58 yards?
I would have thought he wanted to have a run longer than 9 yards or wanted to average at least 5 yards a carry if he could do whatever he wanted.

I've been calling for a more balanced offense for some time, so you're not going to help me budge from that position for any mentality.

OK so no matter what happens, if we run more and score the fewest points we have in 13 games, you won't budge. Thats smart.
Do you realize that until the pass only last drive we had 13 points which would have been the fewest we have scored since Sept of 2009, and the lowest point total at home with Tom Brady at QB since Sept 2006.
I'm glad you have been calling for more balance and won't budge for any reason such as FACTS.

I have no issue with the ball in TB12's hands. He's in the discussion for GOAT. However, the threat of an effective running game for today and tomorrow CANNOT be understated.

That doesnt mean its impossible to run too much, as we did yesterday.

We do not need to use the passing game more. Along with the run, we need to use them effectively.

We need to use it more than we did yesterday.

The Offense with an effective running game is more dynamic than the Offense overusing the passing game.

And both are more effective than too much running.

 

[ausbacker]

Why would I accept something that is 100% wrong.
WATCH THE PLAY.

Because you are generally clueless, that's why. It was a poor decision and a poor throw.

They had 13 points in 59 minutes. Thats what you are looking for?

I'm looking for execution of plays during the game. The Patriots were able to move the ball effectively through the run and passing games on the Cowboys.

Ridley had a 16 yard run and ended 3 for 19.

So in other words, he was able to run effectively when given the ball, much like Green-Ellis, when given the ball? Pleased you agree.

101 yards at 4.0 a pop. I'll those numbers over a gaudy Cowboys run defense.

He wanted to avg 4.1 on his was to 58 yards?
I would have thought he wanted to have a run longer than 9 yards or wanted to average at least 5 yards a carry if he could do whatever he wanted.

Nonsensical point. Green-Ellis ran well, he ran tough and the offensive line blocked well.

OK so no matter what happens, if we run more and score the fewest points we have in 13 games, you won't budge. Thats smart.

Obviously not, but I'm not surprised you'd attempt to post something like this. If the game plan suggests an ability to throw, you throw. If the game plan suggests and ability to run you run. There's also something called in game adjustments. Take what you're given.. you know that mantra that the Patriots have built for a decade.

Do you realize that until the pass only last drive we had 13 points which would have been the fewest we have scored since Sept of 2009, and the lowest point total at home with Tom Brady at QB since Sept 2006.

I do, the Patriots turned the ball over 4 times, 3 times on offense in what looked to be point scoring drives. The fact that the Patriots were able to overcome a turnover differential of -2 and still grind out the win is a credit to the Patriots skill execution, on both sides of the ball.

I'm glad you have been calling for more balance and won't budge for any reason such as FACTS.

You haven't provided facts, only your misguided interpretation of statistics once again.

That doesnt mean its impossible to run too much, as we did yesterday.

There is always the possibility of running or passing too much.

We need to use it more than we did yesterday.

No, we don't. The Patriots use it effectively as part of a dynamic offense taking what the defense shows.

And both are more effective than too much running.

An over reliance on one facet of the game is an over reliance on one facet of the game. This is why I have the philosophy of balance and taking what you're being given.

 

[Ring 6]

Because you are generally clueless, that's why. It was a poor decision and a poor throw.

Childish as ever I see.
WATCH THE PLAY. It wasn't his decision to have his arm hit.
As usual you are wrong and too imature to admit it.

I'm looking for execution of plays during the game. The Patriots were able to move the ball effectively through the run and passing games on the Cowboys.

Not as effectively as they have with more passing.

So in other words, he was able to run effectively when given the ball, much like Green-Ellis, when given the ball? Pleased you agree.

No, in other words, he had a nice run

101 yards at 4.0 a pop. I'll those numbers over a gaudy Cowboys run defense.

But you said he did whatever he wanted to?
101 at 4.0 is not that impressive.

Nonsensical point. Green-Ellis ran well, he ran tough and the offensive line blocked well.

How is it nonsensical to reply to you saying that he could do whatever he wanted by stating that he didnt do all that well?

Obviously not, but I'm not surprised you'd attempt to post something like this. If the game plan suggests an ability to throw, you throw. If the game plan suggests and ability to run you run. There's also something called in game adjustments. Take what you're given.. you know that mantra that the Patriots have built for a decade.

This is totally irrelevant to the discussion.
You are saying they should run more because you take what they give you, and I am saying they should throw more because you take what they give you.
Your comment does nothing to support your opinion, other than to try to inappropriately attach 'the Patriot way' to it.
We have a mismatch in the passing game that is much greater than any advantage in the running game.

I do, the Patriots turned the ball over 4 times, 3 times on offense in what looked to be point scoring drives. {/quote]
Now we count 'looked to be scoring drives' to help your weak argument?

The fact that the Patriots were able to overcome a turnover differential of -2 and still grind out the win is a credit to the Patriots skill execution, on both sides of the ball.

Thank you defense.

You haven't provided facts, only your misguided interpretation of statistics once again.

Of course I have.
You just don't want to consider an offense failing to score points to be a fact and would rather sing the praises of 4 yards a carry and 'look to be scoring drives'.

There is always the possibility of running or passing too much.

Then you agree with me.

No, we don't. The Patriots use it effectively as part of a dynamic offense taking what the defense shows.

What we did yesterday does not accomplish that. We need to throw more to accomplish that, because that is what we do best. And I mean more than we threw yesterday. I had no issue with run/pass distribution in other games.

An over reliance on one facet of the game is an over reliance on one facet of the game. This is why I have the philosophy of balance and taking what you're being given.

Yesterday was an overreliance on the running game.
Whats funny is that we probably basically agree but you are too arrogant to have an honest conversation.
I'm just about done with you anyway because the childish insults are lame.

 

[ausbacker]

Childish as ever I see.
WATCH THE PLAY. It wasn't his decision to have his arm hit.
As usual you are wrong and too imature to admit it.

Brady made a poor throw. He is not infallible. It happens. Now grow up.

Not as effectively as they have with more passing.

Pointless.

No, in other words, he had a nice run

So he was effective as was Green-Ellis.

But you said he did whatever he wanted to?
101 at 4.0 is not that impressive.

That is impressive against a run D that was giving up 69.6 yards per game. Perhaps you should look up the definition of the word impressive.

How is it nonsensical to reply to you saying that he could do whatever he wanted by stating that he didnt do all that well?

In your opinion, which is generally accepted to be incorrect.

This is totally irrelevant to the discussion.
You are saying they should run more because you take what they give you, and I am saying they should throw more because you take what they give you.

The fact that you would post this illustrates that you simply don't get it.

Your comment does nothing to support your opinion, other than to try to inappropriately attach 'the Patriot way' to it.
We have a mismatch in the passing game that is much greater than any advantage in the running game.

Yesterday, the Patriots clearly established dominance in the run game. I'm fairly certain I outlined to you that I am happy for Brady to have the ball in his hands just as I am to take what was given, and yesterday that was the running game.

Now we count 'looked to be scoring drives' to help your weak argument?

How is supporting a factual argument as weak on the basis that the Patriots had a red zone fumble and an interception at the Dallas 26, taking at minimum 3-6 points off the board.

Thank you defense.

That was a much improved defensive performance yesterday. I am glad we agree.

Of course I have.
You just don't want to consider an offense failing to score points to be a fact and would rather sing the praises of 4 yards a carry and 'look to be scoring drives'.

I consider two turnovers inside the Dallas 30 as opportunities to score. You may not, I do.

Then you agree with me.

I have no qualms with a true statement that you can run or pass too much. Who would?

What we did yesterday does not accomplish that. We need to throw more to accomplish that, because that is what we do best. And I mean more than we threw yesterday. I had no issue with run/pass distribution in other games.

Yesterday was not an over reliance on the running game. The running game was effective. The passing game was reasonable and effective too.

Yesterday was an overreliance on the running game.
Whats funny is that we probably basically agree but you are too arrogant to have an honest conversation.
I'm just about done with you anyway because the childish insults are lame.

I never said I had an issue with the passing or running games yesterday did I? The Patriots scored 20 points in spite of 3 offensive turnovers and moved the ball on the Cowboys defense through the run and pass reasonably well. I thought our running game was effective and could have been used a little more, for what it offers our passing game.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I don't know where your precpetion that we run a lot on 2nd and long and it works out poorly comes from. Maybe the Cowboys offense?

How dare you use facts on this forum!

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Pass/run ratios have nothing to do with what has happened in the last 2 Januarys.
We have the best passing offense in the NFL. Of course we want balance, and we have had that lately, but at times yesterday we ran too much, and were not running into defenses that were overloaded with DBs.
If we face a base D we should throw all day long. If we face a DB heavy D we should run more. Up until the last drive we had 32 passes and 26 rushes. That is very, very run heavy, and not what works best for our O, in case you didn't notice.

The thing about AJ is that he's likely associated with the Patriots somehow. Look at his posting history, he's the biggest kook-aid drinker ever, never says a bad thing about the team and always defends it against multiple people. Maybe a PR person or something.

Also, I don't know how 32 passes and 26 rushes constitutes a "very, very run heavy" offense.

As for O'Brien, I don't care what happens in the regular season. Tom Brady and Belichick would make any OC look above average. It's similar for Peyton Manning, he would make any OC look above average if he played a whole season. Every playoff game O'Brien has coached has been an offensive disaster so far, so I'm not anointing O'Brien anything until he actually wins a playoff game.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Pass/run ratios have nothing to do with what has happened in the last 2 Januarys.
We have the best passing offense in the NFL. Of course we want balance, and we have had that lately, but at times yesterday we ran too much, and were not running into defenses that were overloaded with DBs.
If we face a base D we should throw all day long. If we face a DB heavy D we should run more. Up until the last drive we had 32 passes and 26 rushes. That is very, very run heavy, and not what works best for our O, in case you didn't notice.

Regardless of what D you are facing, when you have the lead or tied for as much of the game as we were, and BJGE/Ridley only combine for 17 carries when they're averaging 4.5 yards a pop, something is wrong. The runs to Woodhead in a smaller set offense were poor calls as well when you have the chance to punch your opponent in the mouth, so regardless of the ratio the approach was flawed. Dropping Brady back 50 times as you want to is fine if the pass protection is as good as it was in the Jacksonville games or SB38 but if you want to do that in games like yesterday you will eventually get Brady killed. And you are that much more likely to throw picks. And yes the 2nd pick was a poor play by Brady he threw it into quadruple coverage and he had a defender on his back. You don't make that throw, period. The fact you're even trying to argue that is worrisome.

 

[Seacoast Fan]

Eh, Obrien has been good most of the year but yesterday was pretty ugly. 3 of our pts came off Arrington's pick at midfield and the last 7 were all TFB. That leaves 10 points between the first and last drives.

You mentioned BJGE, well BJGE and Ridley combined for 17 carries yesterday despite averaging 4.5 ypc. That's pretty inexcusable when Brady was running for his life and getting careless with the ball. 41 pass attempts (plus 3 sacks makes it 44 drop backs) to 27 runs (4 of them were QB dives), you need more balance than that especially when your run game is working and the pass is struggling.
As we are seeing this year, Brady's 4 picks from last year was a fluke on a team that relies so heavily on the pass... alot of those deflections that fell harmlessly to the ground are ending up in defenders hands this year because it's going to hurt you eventually. BOB has to commit to the run game sooner than later or we're in trouble playoff time and probably looking at another 1 and done.

Agreed. Wasnt it just last week everyone was talking about how nice it was to have balance in the play caling. On Sunday, I thought there was way too many passes. There were several times BJGE would run for 7 or 8 yards on first down, and then promptly come out. Check out how many times they had a 2nd and ten, cause they thew the ball on first down, even though (up until the last drive) Dallas was getting pressure and Brady was a bit off.

 

[Deus Irae]

Agreed. Wasnt it just last week everyone was talking about how nice it was to have balance in the play caling. On Sunday, I thought there was way too many passes. There were several times BJGE would run for 7 or 8 yards on first down, and then promptly come out. Check out how many times they had a 2nd and ten, cause they thew the ball on first down, even though (up until the last drive) Dallas was getting pressure and Brady was a bit off.

Interesting. I thought the problem was too many 2TE sets and not enough 5 wide with 4WR to pressure that terrible Dallas secondary. I thought the Patriots did the Cowboys an incredible favor with the personnel matchups.

 

[Seacoast Fan]

Interesting. I thought the problem was too many 2TE sets and not enough 5 wide with 4WR to pressure that terrible Dallas secondary. I thought the Patriots did the Cowboys an incredible favor with the personnel matchups.

Well, if the Pats are going to throw, I would prefer they have 2 TEs in there, if the 4th and 5th wideouts are who...Ocho and slater or Price. Unless you are saying, split others wide, such as one or more TE or RB out there.