WHY is it that Ocho could not....

[BrickPat]

The Lloyd McDaniels connection is valid to a point. While TE and WR are obviously different positions it speaks volumes that rookies Gronk and Hernandez could grasp the same "foreign" playbook in year one while a "seasoned pro" like Ocho remained utterly clueless all season.

 

[Gumby]

Well, only going by what was said and drawn in the video, he was supposed to cut back sharply "downhill" or SW.

He "banana'd", which seems to be a lazy NW semi circle, eventually heading W then SW, not a "cutback" at all, not even a horizontal cut.

Of course that's from the vid, assuming he said and drew exactly what he meant.

seems like you are coming round to my point of view- LAZY EXECUTION.

My complaint was that you used the words "broke toward open space and the endzone" and now later in post responding to unoriginal " catch the ball in stride and run for the goal line".

but according to wiggin's drawing the 'open space' was NOT in the direction of the goal line but rather toward the mid-field area. And wiggins never said anything about Ocho looking or cheating to the EZ.

So you saying '[I am] only going by what was said and drawn in the video' is true of this last post; but not your first post nor the response to unoriginal. your first post put a small spin on wiggins' intent. (at least the way I heard what wiggins said).

all good. I think we agree close enough - was just a small quibble.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

It's his brain that couldn't get things together, his physical abilities were fine.. If he couldn't figure it out last year, he would never have been able to. You could tell he try really hard though and that is what sucks. My guess is he just isn't smart enough for this offense.

It was essentially his processing speed. As a NE WR you have to identify the defense, and know what route you're supposed to run when Brady calls it at the LOS. Ocho couldn't do it fast enough, case closed.

 

[Kontradiction]

Has it been said that Lloyd has played under McDaniels yet? Few reasons from what I can see...

1. Couldn't understand the different option routes based on getting a good read on what the defense was giving the offense, thus couldn't be trusted to be where Brady needed him to be, when Brady needed him to be there.

2. Didn't run precise routes in the instances when he did understand where Brady needed him to be and when he needed to be there.

But these have all been stated. Simply put, Johnson just wasn't a good fit here. We've seen it time and time again. We saw it in guys like Chad Jackson, Brandon Tate, etc. Guys who were supremely gifted athletically but couldn't diagnose a defense to be in the right spot at the right time. We also saw guys who were athletically gifted and "got it" (Moss) and guys who maybe lost a step but their knowledge of the system made it so that they were still extremely productive (Branch). That's why it would be a shame to see Welker walk. He's still in the prime of his career and is extremely valuable to the team and it's quarterback. Wide receivers with his traits and understanding of the offense don't grow on trees.

 

[WhiZa]

Has it been said that Lloyd has played under McDaniels yet? Few reasons from what I can see...

1. Couldn't understand the different option routes based on getting a good read on what the defense was giving the offense, thus couldn't be trusted to be where Brady needed him to be, when Brady needed him to be there.

2. Didn't run precise routes in the instances when he did understand where Brady needed him to be and when he needed to be there.

But these have all been stated. Simply put, Johnson just wasn't a good fit here. We've seen it time and time again. We saw it in guys like Chad Jackson, Brandon Tate, etc. Guys who were supremely gifted athletically but couldn't diagnose a defense to be in the right spot at the right time. We also saw guys who were athletically gifted and "got it" (Moss) and guys who maybe lost a step but their knowledge of the system made it so that they were still extremely productive (Branch). That's why it would be a shame to see Welker walk. He's still in the prime of his career and is extremely valuable to the team and it's quarterback. Wide receivers with his traits and understanding of the offense don't grow on trees.

I understand the whole McDaniels thing, but what about Welker and Moss who came in here cold turkey and had record setting years?

To me it comes down to priorities. He got complacent in Cinncinati and focused more on his off field ventures rather than bettering himself on the football field. At his age he just couldn't get by with raw athletic ability any more. When he came to the Pats he was just didn't have the motivation or the ability to learn the playbook. Studying is a skill and if you stop using it then you can't just pick it up years later.

 

[Kontradiction]

I understand the whole McDaniels thing, but what about Welker and Moss who came in here cold turkey and had record setting years?

To me it comes down to priorities. He got complacent in Cinncinati and focused more on his off field ventures rather than bettering himself on the football field. At his age he just couldn't get by with raw athletic ability any more. When he came to the Pats he was just didn't have the motivation or the ability to learn the playbook. Studying is a skill and if you stop using it then you can't just pick it up years later.

Lloyd had a pretty good year in his first season under McDaniels, too, as I recall. It just comes down to "getting it" when it comes to this offense. Johnson didn't get it, Lloyd does. On top of that, he's spent years in it now and is seasoned. As far as the studying part, as someone who got a college degree, hated his career field and went back, I disagree that you can't just pick it up again years later after not using it.

 

[Snake Eyes]

figure out our playbook and even GET out on the Field last year.....and Brandon Lloyd comes here and makes an IMMEDIATE impact????? I just can't figure this one out. I mean I know Ocho isn't the brightest bulb on the christmas tree, but you would have thought he would have been able to get into the game at SOME POINT last season and run at the least the old "down and out." Lloyd for his part looked brilliant. Ran nice crisp routes....ran hard on every play and was beating the Tenn CB's like a drum.....

Some people can quickly interpret and process incoming information and quickly make a good decision based on that information, others can't. TFB is no physical speciman but his mental abilities are fantastic, many QBs who were vastly more physically talented failed because they didnt have diagnostic abilities even a fraction of his, it's no different with receivers. Ocho simply doesnt have the diagnostic ability needed to function in the NE system.

 

[borg]

The guy had trouble lining up in the correct position at the LOS....for heaven's sake. He either didn't take his job seriously enough to know the play book....or he had mental limitations. Maybe he couldn't find the needed time to learn the system because he was to busy setting up rendez-vous' with his Twitter dates.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Worse than Duane Starks?

Duane Starks didn't get the money Chad got

 

[TheBeers]

The guy had trouble lining up in the correct position at the LOS....for heaven's sake. He either didn't take his job seriously enough to know the play book....or he had mental limitations. Maybe he couldn't find the needed time to learn the system because he was to busy setting up rendez-vous' with his Twitter dates.

This.. Even in his short stint in Miami he couldn't line up in the right spot. His team mates joked about how clueless he was on Hard Knocks.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Duane Starks didn't get the money Chad got

still surprised how much money he got and how poorly he played when he got that $$

 

[goheels22002]

Oucho may have never recovered from this:

Chad Ochocinco Hit Against Tampa Bay - YouTube

or this:

Hard hit on Ochocinco (Griffin) - YouTube

or this:

Greatest Hit Ever!!! - YouTube

He took an awful lot of big hits.

 

[RayClay]

seems like you are coming round to my point of view- LAZY EXECUTION.

My complaint was that you used the words "broke toward open space and the endzone" and now later in post responding to unoriginal " catch the ball in stride and run for the goal line".

but according to wiggin's drawing the 'open space' was NOT in the direction of the goal line but rather toward the mid-field area. And wiggins never said anything about Ocho looking or cheating to the EZ.

So you saying '[I am] only going by what was said and drawn in the video' is true of this last post; but not your first post nor the response to unoriginal. your first post put a small spin on wiggins' intent. (at least the way I heard what wiggins said).

all good. I think we agree close enough - was just a small quibble.

He went left. Cut back? I'd have to see the actual film.

If he cut back like he was supposed to his momentum would have been stopped and he would have needed to turn and start for what open field there was. Just according to the diagram, I didn't see an attempt to make that cut, but to turn left.

You're right that the circle he drew wouldn't have been north, but he would be running in stride, which was my main point. A safety to beat in stride or having to restart.

Also, shouldn't he try harder to make the play work, that being screening off the CB? I'm sure people say it's just "imprecise", but the idea of how the play is designed should mean you make damn sure to be between the ball and the defender. Maybe it's semantics.

Maybe on film it looks like a cut that was lazy, don't have the film.

 

[LiveShot]

Lloyd is smart, hard working and dedicated to winning. Ocho is all about Ocho.

 

[unoriginal]

I'm no expert but, my impression was he wanted to catch the ball in stride and run for the goal line. Rather than dumbness or imprecise route running, it was more arrogance, lead me to the goal line.

As i say, no expert, but a veteran wide receiver doesn't know the difference between cutting back to the QB and running the route they illustrated? Seems he has the agility to, if that was his intention.

Of course, we're not looking at the play, but a line drawing.

Okay, I see what you are saying. Yes, Ocho isn't so dumb he doesn't know a good sharp cut from a rounded cut. Yes, there is a certain amount of arrogence to not paying attention to fundamentals. But that is what Wiggins criticism of Ocho's route boils down to.

It's like when a QB fumbles a snap, or a receiver takes his eye off the ball, or a long snapper snaps high. Fundamental things broke down because the player got sloppy with technique, not because the QB was thinking about running a keeper in for a touchdown instead ofhanding it off.

Typically when a receiver rounds a cut like Ocho did, it's because he was paying attention to something else (beating a corner to a spot, for example) than to his speed, feet and body position getting into his break. Not cause he's going "I'm such hot ****, I'm gonna score!"

 

[IcyPatriot]

figure out our playbook and even GET out on the Field last year.....and Brandon Lloyd comes here and makes an IMMEDIATE impact????? I just can't figure this one out. I mean I know Ocho isn't the brightest bulb on the christmas tree, but you would have thought he would have been able to get into the game at SOME POINT last season and run at the least the old "down and out." Lloyd for his part looked brilliant. Ran nice crisp routes....ran hard on every play and was beating the Tenn CB's like a drum.....

It's now apparent he was spending too much time flirting online and hooking up with admirers.

 

[captain stone]

But these have all been stated. Simply put, Johnson just wasn't a good fit here. We've seen it time and time again. We saw it in guys like Chad Jackson, Brandon Tate, etc. Guys who were supremely gifted athletically but couldn't diagnose a defense to be in the right spot at the right time. We also saw guys who were athletically gifted and "got it" (Moss) and guys who maybe lost a step but their knowledge of the system made it so that they were still extremely productive (Branch). That's why it would be a shame to see Welker walk. He's still in the prime of his career and is extremely valuable to the team and it's quarterback. Wide receivers with his traits and understanding of the offense don't grow on trees.

And that's why I really, really hope that Bill re-signs Gaffney before someone else does.

 

[RayClay]

Okay, I see what you are saying. Yes, Ocho isn't so dumb he doesn't know a good sharp cut from a rounded cut. Yes, there is a certain amount of arrogence to not paying attention to fundamentals. But that is what Wiggins criticism of Ocho's route boils down to.

It's like when a QB fumbles a snap, or a receiver takes his eye off the ball, or a long snapper snaps high. Fundamental things broke down because the player got sloppy with technique, not because the QB was thinking about running a keeper in for a touchdown instead ofhanding it off.

Typically when a receiver rounds a cut like Ocho did, it's because he was paying attention to something else (beating a corner to a spot, for example) than to his speed, feet and body position getting into his break. Not cause he's going "I'm such hot ****, I'm gonna score!"

Not cause he's going "I'm such hot ****, I'm gonna score!"

Yeah, I overreached. I'm sure he wouldn't have been around as long as he was, if true..:bricks:

 

[Patriot Missile]

This is an age old situation that you can take from your own job. At my job it usually takes 3-5 years to get up to speed to be able to handle just about any situation. Some are quicker, some are naturals. Its almost a general rule if your lost and don't know what you are doing constantly screwing up that your never going to get it.

At a hyper induced level of months the expectation is that when you are brought in and paid millions that you are expected to perform and give results within a given time. Chad wasn't doing that and in this business you aren't given 3-5 years. Chad simply could not process the playbooks or couldn't deal with pressure to perform on the grand scale.

He failed and to be honest we cut the wrong wr the day before the super bowl. I actually think the other guy Underwood lost out to the veteran sympathy card. Looking back that is.