Why is everyone so impressed with Richard Marshall?

[drpatriot]

Let me start off by saying that I don't believe that there is a major need at DB this season, especially because we have somewhere around 14 DBs on the roster at this point. With this in mind, I have a small bone to pick. It seems that majority of people on this board who have us taking a DB in a draft have us selecting Richard Marshall, usually around the 2nd round. My question for everyone is: why is there so much love for Marshall?

The reason that Marshall was originally put on someone's draft board is because he played Fresno State for Pat Hill, who coached under BB. We drafted two players from Fresno State last year, so it seemed plausible that we would draft Marshall this year. Though this logic is shaky, I can understand it. However, recently Marshall has been rising for no apparant reason. Why is this? Marshall only ran a 4.47 40 at his Pro Day, which is nothing spectacular. And according to http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=33750 (Pony's defensive prospect rankings, which were an excellent piece of work btw), Marshall, who played in a non-BCS conference, had only average stats in college, even compared to players in BCS conferences.

I just don't see the reasoning behind the love for Richard Marshall. If someone can explain it, I would really appreciate it.

 

[spacecrime]

Richard Marshall, usually around the 2nd round. My question for everyone is: why is there so much love for Marshall?

Marshall won't be around when we pick in second round.

Why is this? Marshall only ran a 4.47 40 at his Pro Day, which is nothing spectacular.

Well, yeah, when your main criteria for setting up a draft board are 40 times, he isn't that hot, is he? Some players do not have good "measurables" but play very well, better than the workout warriors. Perhaps Marshall is one of these. Maybe Fasano is also.

 

[drpatriot]

Well, yeah, when your main criteria for setting up a draft board are 40 times, he isn't that hot, is he? Some players do not have good "measurables" but play very well, better than the workout warriors. Perhaps Marshall is one of these.

I concede that there isn't necessarily a relationship between a low 40 time and success in the NFL. I also agree that workout warriors are overrated and that good workout stats should correlate with, not supersede, good college stats. However, I also don't believe that "immeasurables" really applies for the cornerback position because interceptions and pass deflections are what cornerbacks should be measured by. If a pass comes toward them, they should either deflect it or intercept it, period.

However, my main concern is still that he only managed 3 interceptions per year in a non-BCS conference. This doesn't show good field instincts or good hands. How do bad hands and bad instincts translate to success in the NFL?

 

[PATSNUTme]

IBWT and S too.

 

[BelichickFan]

Marshall won't be around when we pick in second round.

He might be. He very well might be. Heck, a draft guy I really respect had him available for us in the 3rd round.

 

[spacecrime]

However, my main concern is still that he only managed 3 interceptions per year in a non-BCS conference. This doesn't show good field instincts or good hands. How do bad hands and bad instincts translate to success in the NFL?

Again, you are using stats solely to prove the worth of a player. Worse, you are using the lack of a particular stat (few interceptions) to "prove a player has both bad instincts and poor hands.

That is even sillier than using 40 times, in my opinion.

Many DTs have, and will continue to have, more sacks than Seymour. Does this mean Seymour has poor technique and no drive off the line? Of course not.

There are many variables to consider here, mostly how a player is used, and how he plays.

Delthea ONeil got lots of INTs by gambling a lot. Few remember all the times a WR he was covering got a TD. They just look at stat sheets. That is why I am not impressed with Ty Law's 10 INT's this year. Law is a great CB. He was not a better CB last year because he got more INTs.

Stats are fun, but you have to look at them in the context of the player involved, and the system involved. Troy Brown got 101 receptions in 2001. That's more than Branch got last year. So Branch runs bad routes and has bad hands? Maybe we only had two options in 2001, Brown and Patten. Last year we had a slew of WR's and three TE's who could catch. So each individual receiver's stats go down. When Brady throws TD passes to 11 or 12 players in a season, each player is going to catch less than if only 3 or 4 receivers catch TD passes.

Marshall may not be any good, I don't know. I always buy the draft guides (have ESPN, Sporting News and Street & Smith now, Kiper's on the way). I pay much less attention to 40 times, passes caught or defended, etc than I do the narrative describing how they play, and what their GAME strengths and weakness are.

For future Pats WR's, i look first for crisp route running, for TE's. must catch AND block, for CB's, must play the run effectively, be able to press, and recover well.

Stats are highly over-rated unless you take them in context. Jon Huston's career kicking stats aren't very good, but he really only kicked his freshman and senior years. He sucked his freshman year, and was great his senior year. So forget the "career" stats and focus on the senior stats.

Context is everything. When in doubt, ignore the stats and see how the palyer plays.

 

[spacecrime]

He might be. He very well might be. Heck, a draft guy I really respect had him available for us in the 3rd round.

I overspoke. I should have said, "I sincerely doubt he won't be around in the second round."

Obviously I cannot say what will happen in the draft.

But I think if we want Marshall, we will have to trade up with the second round pick, or could trade down with the first.

Personally, I would take any of Marshall, hill, or Cromartie. Trade down and wait until only one is left, then trade up to the next spot and take whoever is left.

 

[ice]

I like Olb (lawson) at 21 and do like Marshal in the early second, but not sure of what it would take to move that far up. Also would it be worth two picks to move up for marshal?

thoughts

 

[BelichickFan]

No it's not worth trading up for Marshall. He may make it to our second pick anyway and if he doesn't there will be someone of equal quality.

Remember - very deep draft.

 

[drpatriot]

Context is everything. When in doubt, ignore the stats and see how the player plays.

Obviously I give more appreciation to stats than you do, although I probably misspoke (miswrote?) when I said that this "shows" that he has bad hands and bad field vision. I should have said "suggests" that he has bad hands and bad field vision because there ARE factors other than measured stats, such as how many passes were thrown at targets he was covering, how many possible interceptions he dropped, how many touchdowns he allowed to receivers he was defending, and the context of his 68 tackles per season (run game/pass game).

The reason, of course, that I have used these stats is because they are the only firsthand basis that I have for evaluating Marshall as I have never seen him play. They may not tell the whole story, but they at least tell some of it. If someone who has seen Marshall play has any information that suggests that he is, in fact, much better than his stats imply could post here with some sort of analysis, that would be fantastic.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Obviously I give more appreciation to stats than you do, although I probably misspoke (miswrote?) when I said that this "shows" that he has bad hands and bad field vision. I should have said "suggests" that he has bad hands and bad field vision because there ARE factors other than measured stats, such as how many passes were thrown at targets he was covering, how many possible interceptions he dropped, how many touchdowns he allowed to receivers he was defending, and the context of his 68 tackles per season (run game/pass game).

The reason, of course, that I have used these stats is because they are the only firsthand basis that I have for evaluating Marshall as I have never seen him play. They may not tell the whole story, but they at least tell some of it. If someone who has seen Marshall play has any information that suggests that he is, in fact, much better than his stats imply could post here with some sort of analysis, that would be fantastic.

Not complete stats, but try career interceptions for a little different perspective...
http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/playerDetail.jsp?yr=2005&org=96&player=24

Then there is this from Fresno State's archives:
http://gobulldogs.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/2004-2005/teamcume.html#TEAM.DEF
http://gobulldogs.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/teamcume.html#TEAM.DEF

 

[PioliJunior]

if i could, i would drive to BB's house and demand him to get Marshall and Lawson.......


sure we have a lot of DB's but none of them are good enough to replace Ty Law, and this is where Richard Marshall comes in. not only did he basically shut down the best WR in NCAA in dwayne Jarrett. at 6'6, this tough 5'11 CB shut HIM DOWN!! he is a threat at returning, and he is crazy run stopper, A CB MARSHALL LED FRESNO STATE WITH TACKLES! WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO YOU GUYS? anyway, if u still hatin im sure u wont be after u see this video....

http://www.draftshowcase.com/RichardMarshall.wmv


SIMPLY UNBELIEVEABLE, if u guys are hatin after this, yall really dont know New England Football

i know BB and Pioli have talked with marshall and pat hill, and i feel he is most likely coming here. we have about 15 prospects we can talk to, now if we dont need a db like some of u guys are sayin, then why is one of 15, happen to be a very good prospect in marshall, kiper has him goin in the first to jax, but maybe thats the hair gel thats trappin his brain, cuz i ddoubt 6 cbs go in the first round

please dont hate, marshall will be a fine CB on any team, so we're lucky if he's knockin heads in a silver helmet, and when i say knockin heads, i really aint playin...

 

[big mike]

That's a nice open field tackle he makes on Reggie Bush at the end of that video.

 

[dryheat44]

...if i could, i would drive to BB's house

... anyway, if u still hatin im sure u wont be after u see this video

...if u guys are hatin after this, yall really dont know New England Football

...but maybe thats the hair gel thats trappin his brain, cuz i ddoubt 6 cbs go in the first round

...please dont hate, marshall will be a fine CB on any team,

...and when i say knockin heads, i really aint playin...

I'm sorry, I simply can't take anybody seriously who posts thusly on a message board. When you start out "If I could, I would drive to BB's house", do you mean you're not old enough to drive?

I'm not trying to be a grammar cop, but you might be the greatest football mind in the country and still not be taken seriously.

I do however admire the effort that went into your signature bar. Nice job.

 

[PioliJunior]

yea, im 15 years old, dont hate, please because i get sloppy sometimes, you still need to read what i have to say, this is my very favorite prospect, and i would like it if people looked at the highlight tape, read what i have to say, and stop slamming me because i write sloppy, just read above and just because im young, does not mean i am short on draft inteligence

 

[A.C Vegas]

After watching hte video and relising that it is his best plays most of the INTs me made were throw to him any of the ones he had to break on he missed. He looks like a great returner and tackler but is that enough i'd like to see a DB break on the ball and pick it maybe that's just me though

 

[patriotsrule]

From Patriots.com:

Richard Marshall, Fresno State – We’ve talked about Marshall quite a bit on Patriots.com but after watching film on him, I came away even more impressed. I think Marshall is the most complete corner in this draft. He’s a tough, physical cornerback who actually led Fresno State in tackles last year with 78. Watching him on film, this guy made a ton of tackles. Whenever there was a running play, Marshall either made the tackle or was in the vicinity ready to make one.

The other thing I like about Marshall is he plays big receivers well. He has a knack for going up and knocking the ball away from taller receivers and that’s something you just can’t teach. Marshall made a lot of big plays for the Bulldogs – taking three interceptions back for touchdowns and also serving as a kick returner.

Don’t worry about the level of competition either. Fresno State may not play in a big conference but they traditionally have one of college football’s toughest schedules. Besides, Marshall’s best game last year came against USC’s Dwayne Jarrett – a future high first- round draft pick. I think Marshall is the second best cover corner behind Hill but his ability to play the run makes him the best overall cornerback in this draft. He’s definitely the kind of player Belichick likes and playing for Pat Hill at Fresno State certainly improves the odds of Marshall becoming a Patriot on draft day.

A lot of people laughed at us when we came back from the Combine and said Marshall was a possibility for the Patriots at 21. While he may not go to New England with the 21st selection, Marshall has pretty much nailed down a spot in Round 1 of the draft.

 

[patpatriot]

Maeshall is the man

Marshall is most likely our Number 1 option. The question is; how far can we drop down and still have a shot at him?

 

[Joe_n99]

Eh..

The video didn't really sway me too much in either direction... except that seeing him showboat after a pick when he could have been picking up yards kinda left a bad taste in my mouth.

Joe

 

[big mike]

yea, im 15 years old, dont hate, please because i get sloppy sometimes, you still need to read what i have to say, this is my very favorite prospect, and i would like it if people looked at the highlight tape, read what i have to say, and stop slamming me because i write sloppy, just read above and just because im young, does not mean i am short on draft inteligence

A couple tips - it's not so much your grammar that's the issue (ok, it partly is), but the repeated use of slang phrases like "don't hate", writing "u" instead of "you", not capitalizing the beginning of sentences (which surely you know you're supposed to do - in my experience it's often just that it's become popular among young kids to not capitalize, punctuate, etc., as if it's somehow an act of rebellion. It's not. It just makes a person seem immature), etc..

I'm not trying to be critical, just trying to give some helpful advice (and I agree completely with dryheat on this) - if you want to be taken seriously by *adults*, don't communicate in the same way you would with one of your 15 year old friends. That doesn't just mean writing in actual sentences (beginning them with capital letters) and such, but also not throwing in phrases like "don't be hatin'" in every other sentence.