Why does Nink get used as a DE (instead of Anderson in the Nickel?

[Patspsycho]

2) "Occupy a lineman" on a pass play? Again, that makes absolutely no sense. I'm sure you've come across the phrase "occupy the gap" in your time on these boards. Again, you're incorrectly regurgitating it.

Isn't it a fact that in our two-gap system, the offensive linemen are tied up so that the backers can make a play through the gaps? Sometimes they do, sometimes they drop back in coverage, right?

3) Occupying the gap (not a lineman!) is not an excuse to avoid rushing the passer -- nor is it "icing on the cake." If you seriously think there that little emphasis on rushing the passer; then you are just totally clueless. This isn't even up for debate. As before, you are making some semblance of sense when you talk about the need to "set the edge" as a DE.....and then totally abandoning logic when you continue to explain. Never in a million years does that somehow mean there isn't a need for a DE to rush the QB. That's just patently absurd.

First, I don't think we "occupy the gap" because the defensive philosophy has always been two-gap, which means responsibility for more than one gap. So primarily, the defensive lineman occupy the offensive lineman so as to either push him back or disengage (if needed) to fill either the gap on his left or right, if the play appears to be directed to either of those gaps, right? If he occupies a gap right off the bat, he can't cover the other gap.

Also, perhaps you would explain to me that if it was Ninko's sole goal to get to the passer, why he rushes his man straight up instead of pulling one of the countless tricks that a one-gapper would use, such as a swim, spin or rip? I'm not trying to be clever here. Just a question- if you know better than me, feel free to correct me.

Also, I don't mean that it is Ninko's job to never touch the QB. If he manages to get there, great. What I was trying to say was that I didn't think that was his sole task, because then he'd be one-gapping, correct?

EDIT: Putting all the pieces together; you are actually attempting to argue that only elite QBs can beat a defense that plays a prevent in regular situations, and would rather have both DEs "occupy a lineman" rather than actually pressuring the QB. LOL.

No. I was only trying to point out that playing a prevent type of defense may seem frustrating at times, but it does win out in the long run, statistically-wise because very few games are relatively mistake-free. Not sure how you translated that into having DE's only occupy linemen when we've obviously seen Carter and Anderson beat their man quite a few times.

I may have messed up on the terminology and if so, I apologize. I never pretend to be anything other than an educated amateur fan and so stand to be corrected at any time. But that isn't going to stop me from learning more about the game through discussion, and making my fair share of mistakes along the way.

 

[Ring 6]

Ninko's job as the hybrid DE in the nickel package (on pass plays) is to occupy the lineman. If he manages to get loose and get to the QB, that's icing on the cake, but his primary job is to tie up the blocker, to contain the pocket, seal the edge or prevent the kick out block.

Yes it's that same old prevent D that a lot of posters love to hate, but statistically speaking, over the long run, that strategy will win out more often than not. And especially so, since I can count on one hand, the number of QB's in this league who have the mental toughness, patience, and accuracy to defeat this type of system.

You can tell that by what he does with his hands when occupying the lineman; he frequently squares up to his man, and doesn't use moves that one-gapping players would use (swim, rip, spin, etc) to get by his man and get to the QB.

I have never seen Ninkovich play DE in nickel and try to occupy a blocker. I have only seen him use everything he has to rush the passer, although its clear that he is asked to keep his pass rush lanes.

 

[Ring 6]

Isn't it a fact that in our two-gap system, the offensive linemen are tied up so that the backers can make a play through the gaps? Sometimes they do, sometimes they drop back in coverage, right?

2 gap is run D, not pass rush. By the way, as you listed below quite clearly each front 7 player 2 gaps, the DL are not tying up players for the LBs each one is playing both sides of his man so every gap has 2 players assigned to it.

First, I don't think we "occupy the gap" because the defensive philosophy has always been two-gap, which means responsibility for more than one gap. So primarily, the defensive lineman occupy the offensive lineman so as to either push him back or disengage (if needed) to fill either the gap on his left or right, if the play appears to be directed to either of those gaps, right? If he occupies a gap right off the bat, he can't cover the other gap.

Again though this doesnt happen on 3rd down nickel.

Also, perhaps you would explain to me that if it was Ninko's sole goal to get to the passer, why he rushes his man straight up instead of pulling one of the countless tricks that a one-gapper would use, such as a swim, spin or rip? I'm not trying to be clever here. Just a question- if you know better than me, feel free to correct me.

He does use these pass rush techniques, every pass rusher does, but our defense does value rush lane discipline and does value draw responsibility so you won't see him spinning around like Freeney. He uses what works for him.

Also, I don't mean that it is Ninko's job to never touch the QB. If he manages to get there, great. What I was trying to say was that I didn't think that was his sole task, because then he'd be one-gapping, correct?

No. I was only trying to point out that playing a prevent type of defense may seem frustrating at times, but it does win out in the long run, statistically-wise because very few games are relatively mistake-free. Not sure how you translated that into having DE's only occupy linemen when we've obviously seen Carter and Anderson beat their man quite a few times.

If there is one thing that is blatantly evident in the history of the NFL is that winning teams are much more often generally conservative in philosophy.

I may have messed up on the terminology and if so, I apologize. I never pretend to be anything other than an educated amateur fan and so stand to be corrected at any time. But that isn't going to stop me from learning more about the game through discussion, and making my fair share of mistakes along the way.

The only point I would object to is that 2 gap wouldn't come into play on a pass, and especially in a sub package obvious passing down.

 

[Ring 6]

I get what you're saying.

But I don't think Anderson is nearly as bad as people think against the run. I've watched him on virtually every play since week 8 or so, and he has often dominated his guy against the run.

Come on. Thats just not being honest. First of all, he rarely plays on running plays, and secondly he either shoots a gap that is away from the play (which equals blocked) or gets blown off the line when he is blocked by an OL. He simply cannot hold the point of attack to save his life. But thats not his job here.

I

 

[Patspsycho]

The only point I would object to is that 2 gap wouldn't come into play on a pass, and especially in a sub package obvious passing down.

Yes, you're right, especially in a 3rd and long. That one is on me for not thinking clearly.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes, you're right, especially in a 3rd and long. That one is on me for not thinking clearly.

It is overlooked though, what the 2gap does to the pass rushers in the base.
Even though as soon as they read pass, they go into pass rush mode, their first step is always into the blocker, while the 1gap DLs first move is in avoidance of the OL, so he has the chance to get a step.

 

[satz]

EDIT: Also, how often do we actually see Nink drop into coverage when he's in the role of the DE in the Nickel? It's really not very often at all.

He is the guy who is responsible for TE jam and RB getting not a free release being the guy who plays on the right with most right handed QB. His first job is not give a TE/RB free release. If TE/RB are not a factor then he rushes.

with the recent injury he was playing behind the LOS in nickel packages.