Why does everyone assume Browner starts over Dennard?

[Deus Irae]

In other words, while I, and many others would agree with you and your concern, the lack of addressing the position that much tends to lead me to believe that Belichick isn't quite as worried about it as we are....

Belichick not seeing problems that are easily seen has been a failing of his with this team for a lot of years now. Is it possible that Harmon's the real deal? Sure, just like it was possible that A. Wilson was the answer, and Gregory was the answer, and T. Wilson was the real deal, and Chung was the real deal.

The problem is that most of us saw that at least most of them weren't the answer and were probably not the real deal, but Bill missed it. Much like the several years with the WR and CB positions, it's been a full on pooch screw.

I think it's more than fair that we take a "prove it" approach rather than accepting the old "But, BB!" chestnut.

 

[supafly]

Belichick not seeing problems that are easily seen has been a failing of his with this team for a lot of years now. Is it possible that Harmon's the real deal? Sure, just like it was possible that A. Wilson was the answer, and Gregory was the answer, and T. Wilson was the real deal, and Chung was the real deal.

The problem is that most of us saw that at least most of them weren't the answer and were probably not the real deal, but Bill missed it. Much like the several years with the WR and CB positions, it's been a full on pooch screw.

I think it's more than fair that we take a "prove it" approach rather than accepting the old "But, BB!" chestnut.

In that sense, I fully agree with you 100%, and am not meaning my stance to necessarily come off as "pro-BB," or that everything he touches turns to gold.

This all started with the questioning of why mgteich has continued to pencil in Logan Ryan not just as a safety rather than a cornerback, but that he views him as a starter to boot. We all believe different things, so that is something that I'm not nearly as convinced about at this particularly time.

Like I said in the Svitek thread, if I didn't know any better I'd assume that my wife has started to drug me with anti-depressants, because I'm feeling rather positive of our prospects at this point in the summer. Sure, we'll always have some weaknesses, but I think it'll be better than we've seen in awhile.

 

[Deus Irae]

In that sense, I fully agree with you 100%, and am not meaning my stance to necessarily come off as "pro-BB," or that everything he touches turns to gold.

This all started with the questioning of why mgteich has continued to pencil in Logan Ryan not just as a safety rather than a cornerback, but that he views him as a starter to boot. We all believe different things, so that is something that I'm not nearly as convinced about at this particularly time.

Like I said in the Svitek thread, if I didn't know any better I'd assume that my wife has started to drug my with anti-depressants, because I'm feeling rather positive of our prospects at this point in the summer. Sure, we'll always have some weaknesses, but I think it'll be better than we've seen in awhile.

I look at the defense and I see way too many questions. But, if those questions are answered in a positive way, I see a defense that can do something we haven't seen since 2007 (and maybe even before that), which is be consistently good enough to actually win games against top teams, even with a lesser offense. Patriots defenses since then have had good points rankings, but we all (well, most of us) knew that they not as good as the rankings when it came to actual personnel and play, and didn't count the coaching advantage. This could finally be the year where the coaching edge isn't essential, and talent is enough.

Or it could all blow up and place everything on Brady's aging shoulders, once again. This is an either way lineup, IMO.

 

[Joker]

absolutely, Deus. So many question marks.

 

[supafly]

I understand the decision to focus on the weaker positions such as TE and S right now as concerns, and I share them as well, but I am also quite hopeful and excited as a fan to have seen so many positives developing in terms of additional talent + returning injured players just as well.

Even with all of our weaknesses and shoddy positions due to one reason or another, the team still went to 3 consecutive AFCCG appearances, had great records, and proved to be a very tough out. Had it not been for major key injuries in the past 2 conference championship games, (and even SB46) in terms of the Talib/Gronkowski injuries, I believe we'd have gone farther.

The front office went out this offseason and addressed CB, DL, WR (along with the health and second year leap as well), and even OL. QB could also be added to the list too. Those are all major areas of the team, and I do believe that one/two more players will go a long way prior to training camp.

Personally, I am not seeing as many question marks--but that's just me.

 

[Nunchucks]

The much improved CB play will make the 2nd safety position a bit of a luxury. The Patriots only really need 1 true safety. The other guy can play in the box or do whatever. Revis has given the Patriots a lot of flexibility in what they can do in the secondary.

 

[mgteich]

So, your five safeties are McCourty, Harmon, Wilson, Thomas and Ebner. with Wilson as the #3? That's probably the worst depth at safety in the NFL, of at least among playoff teams.

Chung may have been a very poor starter last year. However, it seem a real stretch to believe that Wilson AND Thomas AND Ebner will all beat him out for a roster position.

I'm far from convinced that a guy like Pat Chung is even going to make the 53 man roster, Joker.

That said, I also see no problem with having Harmon as our starter opposite of McCourty. We all have concerns, which is reasonable, due to the fact that he looked mediocre, and was a rookie; but we see these kinds of moves made all the time where the rookie takes over. Only time will tell how well it works out or not.

I think that there's a good chance that Chung is nothing more than camp fodder who will be competing with Wilson, Thomas, Ebner, etc for the ST role of depth safety. My only point is that I think some overreaction is being made for various reasons, even if I fully understand and respect why that is occurring. As a whole, I feel much, much better about our secondary than in quite some time. I also expect an additional vet safety to be brought in sometime in the next month or so.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Chung may have been a very poor starter last year. However, it seem a real stretch to believe that Wilson AND Thomas AND Ebner will all beat him out for a roster position.

If he is out there on Sundays..just wait until we see the yellow flags raining down.

 

[Deus Irae]

The much improved CB play will make the 2nd safety position a bit of a luxury. The Patriots only really need 1 true safety. The other guy can play in the box or do whatever. Revis has given the Patriots a lot of flexibility in what they can do in the secondary.

Here's the thing, from my perspective. I look at the Revis signing as an opportunity to get back to the days when Ty Law was in the defensive secondary taking on his man and the other 3 DBs were good enough to be legit players. I don't want it to be just a situation where having Revis means other positions can suck.

Now, maybe Harmon will improve so significantly as to reach that position of competence. He absolutely, positively was not there last year, though, and he's option #1 right now, according to reports. If he can't do it, Tavon "Not a reach!" Wilson and Patrick "Can't cover a corpse" Chung are next in line. That's not a good thing.

 

[supafly]

So, your five safeties are McCourty, Harmon, Wilson, Thomas and Ebner. with Wilson as the #3? That's probably the worst depth at safety in the NFL, of at least among playoff teams.

Chung may have been a very poor starter last year. However, it seem a real stretch to believe that Wilson AND Thomas AND Ebner will all beat him out for a roster position.

I think our main difference of opinion seems to be that you are banking on being able to look into a crystal ball during the beginning of June, 3 months prior to the season. This is exactly why I see these exercises as nothing more than passing of time, with nothing else to talk about. I wouldn't expect Belichick to be all that worried about what his June 2014 roster depth to look like, unless it were full of holes top to bottom. I can't think of too many years where we all felt 100% confident at ALL positions, especially when we haven't even had minicamp yet.

I expect things to look differently come the beginning of the fall, and I expect a guy like Patrick Chung to currently offer about a 50/50 proposition on making the team--maybe 60/40. Considering him a "lock" seems terribly foolish and short sighted in my opinion. You seem to feel differently, however. That said, it's possible that they feel as though he can provide something while utilizing his strengths with our improved CBs.

We've heard recent rumblings from Mike Adams and his agent that N.England has reached out to them. We also saw Terrell Thomas brought in for a look a few weeks ago. We probably can assume that another player or two will be added to the secondary, which has already been improved upon tremendously to this point. If an emergency situation arises, I would expect Belichick to address that through any number of options, possibly including playing one of Arrington/Ryan at the position full time. We also have no idea what we have in Jemea Thomas yet.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Browner excels against exactly the type of receivers that Dennard struggles against. Browner is a better player, but there will definitely be a matchup-specific element to their assignments as well.

 

[supafly]

Now, maybe Harmon will improve so significantly as to reach that position of competence. He absolutely, positively was not there last year, though, and he's option #1 right now, according to reports. If he can't do it, Tavon "Not a reach!" Wilson and Patrick "Can't cover a corpse" Chung are next in line. That's not a good thing.

No, it's not a good thing, and I think we all share the concerns on some level. Perhaps I am just banking on the thought of adding someone else to the mix, with the recent looks and reach outs to both Adams and T.Thomas. Although it's nothing to get overly excited about, we've yet to see if J.Thomas can add anything as well.

As far as Chung goes, I guess he's probably 60/40 or so, but with Chung, T.Wilson, AND Ebner--I just wonder how many of them will be the "special teams/backup safety." Some seem to feel that we'll be keeping 2 or 3, while I'm wondering if we only keep 1 or 2.

I can safely assume that Chung's chances would go down rather quickly should we add another viable option though, which is why I do not consider him anything of a lock at this point in the summer.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Here's the thing, from my perspective. I look at the Revis signing as an opportunity to get back to the days when Ty Law was in the defensive secondary taking on his man and the other 3 DBs were good enough to be legit players. I don't want it to be just a situation where having Revis means other positions can suck.

Now, maybe Harmon will improve so significantly as to reach that position of competence. He absolutely, positively was not there last year, though, and he's option #1 right now, according to reports. If he can't do it, Tavon "Not a reach!" Wilson and Patrick "Can't cover a corpse" Chung are next in line. That's not a good thing.

Ryan at safety is also a possibility.

On any day that Chung starts at safety, he's possibly the worst starter in the league. I hope/think that we can outright rule him out as an option.

 

[supafly]

Ryan at safety is also a possibility.

On any day that Chung starts at safety, he's possibly the worst starter in the league. I hope/think that we can outright rule him out as an option.

Ryan is certainly an option, but I think that is pretty much up in the air without much to go on aside from some media speculation at this point. He did play some sporadic safety snaps last season at times, so it's quite possible that could be driven up another 5-10 percent as well, which is how I tend to see it at this point in time.

The only reason I am apprehensive about a full time switch is due to the fact that we have some question marks at CB for the future with Revis, Arrington, and Dennard/Browner (durability and legal concerns). This is coming at a period where we just saw Ryan have a somewhat solid 1st year with 5 INTs for a rookie, so I'm wondering if they are going to allow him to compete and see more of what he has. I question how smart it'd be for Belichick to take a promising first year CB at a position of such importance and move him to safety full-time, just due to the fact that we're a player short at the moment in regards to safety. It just doesn't make a ton of sense to me, unless he's switching to a permanent scheme of having safeties who have CB size/skills/speed.

I think the possibility of Ryan lining up anywhere from CB2 to nickle to dime to starting safety to 3rd/4th safety is one of the more intriguing things to keep an eye on for the next couple of months. Some of that may end up falling into place with injuries, etc.

 

[PatsBoy12]

How many times has BB himself said there are no starters on the team? Everyone is expected to contribute. In fact, I'm willing to bet the numbers are not that far off when we look at plays played by both players at the end of the season (Browner will get the nod here of course), unless one of them sustains significant or nagging injury, which Dennard has in the past.

Funny how a few years ago we were talking about a lack of depth in the secondary and how BB has to put together a hodgepodge of guys. Now, we're "complaining" about having too much quality depth? LOL We're getting into regular-season form already?

 

[Deus Irae]

How many times has BB himself said there are no starters on the team? Everyone is expected to contribute. In fact, I'm willing to bet the numbers are not that far off when we look at plays played by both players at the end of the season (Browner will get the nod here of course), unless one of them sustains significant or nagging injury, which Dennard has in the past.

Funny how a few years ago we were talking about a lack of depth in the secondary and how BB has to put together a hodgepodge of guys. Now, we're "complaining" about having too much quality depth? LOL We're getting into regular-season form already?

I haven't seen anyone even remotely close to complaining that there's too much quality depth in the secondary.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Browner excels against exactly the type of receivers that Dennard struggles against. Browner is a better player, but there will definitely be a matchup-specific element to their assignments as well.

Browner with the bigger guys...as we have seen Dennard struggle against

 

[JMC00]

Just want to let OP know, Browner has basically been the #2 guy at OTAs while Dennard hasn't participated or been seen.

 

[bruinator]

I promise you that Dennard starts over Browner during the first 4 games.

 

[supafly]

I promise you that Dennard starts over Browner during the first 4 games.

Actually, it may not be Dennard--at least not in all of the games anyway.

We all hope that he'll shake some of the injury concerns that he's had and really step up into his own this year, but I'd by lying if I said that I didn't have any apprehension.