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Why Do They Hate Us?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Turk, Jun 25, 2006.

  1. Turk

    Turk Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/22/AR2006062200972.html



    If Henry Luce was correct that the last century was the American century, will the 21st be the anti-American one? According to Julia E. Sweig, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, we are off to a bad start: "Since 2000, polls by over a half dozen organizations -- from Pew to Zogby, German Marshall Fund to the Guardian , Eurobarometer to Latinobar?metro -- have tracked the declining views about America, Americans, and U.S. foreign policy in every region of the world." Even a pro-American writer like Mario Vargas Llosa argued in June 2004 that images from Abu Ghraib prison and the Gaza Strip "have done more damage to the United States and Israel than all the bombs and the suicide attacks of the Islamic extremists in the last few months."...
     
  2. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    They Hate us:

    Their jealous of us.

    Why do they all want to live here.

    Why don't they stop immigrating here.

    Why do they climb fences, swim rivers, come by inner tubes, and home made rafts to live here.

    WHY DO THEY RISK DEATH AND PRISON TO LIVE IN AMERICA?
     
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  3. Turk

    Turk Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    I already know the answer, but I can't help but ask:
    Do you even read the articles posted here, before posting your "thoughts" on them?
     
  4. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Personally I think it all started when the allies helped create Israel...in effect stealing land...it has spiraled downwards from there.

    I think there was a time where Israel served us well but that time has pretty much past. They share some technology with us and are huge donators to politicians but other than that we lose more than we gain.

    The palestinians deserve their own country...plain and simple. I know there are terrorists there but how else to fight a giant who has weapons all the way to nuclear when you only have homemade rockets and guns.

    We have imposed our will on way too many countries. Even before Bush we have been the bully of the world. Helping Isreal while we impose our will on Muslim/Arab land would not sit too well with me either if I lived there.

    However, we wanted a global economy and we got one. We had advantages and we sold them away due to greed. Our politicians represent their huge donors and big business more than the people. This applies to democrats and republicans. When the Jewish lobby (validation???) supposedly is responsible for 60% of a parties donations...that's a huge problem.

    Just some of the reasons we are hated. I forgot Hollywood, and the huge lack of morality that has spread to our youth mostly via the internet. It's rather hypocritical that we left British rule to be independant and yet we today are what the british were back then.
     
  5. mikey

    mikey In the Starting Line-Up

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    Why?

    $$$$$

    .
     
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  6. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand In the Starting Line-Up

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    #37 Jersey

    I can't believe I am going to say this but, gulp, I agree with you. :bricks:
     
  7. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I posted my "thoughts" on the TITLE OF THE THREAD, that being, "WHY DO THEY HATE US"
    :bricks:
     
  8. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey


    Not anti-Israel at all NEM. It's just that we should apply the same tone with them as we do with others...and we do not.

    They have a very strong military, nuclear weapons, an amazing navy and air force. They could easily beat any country in their vicinity who wanted to go to war with them.

    So why do we have to suck up to them all the time? This shows an anti-Arab bias and it's 90% of the reason they have no problem killing our soldiers.

    My family is 1/2 Jewish NEM...so you don't need to preach to me about it. There are a good number of Jewish who view Israeli's as terrorists also...it's all about perception..not right and wrong because it is impossible to define right and wrong in the Middle East.

    Because it is impossible to define right and wrong and because perception is 99% of the problem I would like to see our country show an even handedness with the entire region.

    If we were even handed some years ago I highly doubt we would be in Iraq right now.

    I highly doubt 9/11 would have ever happened.

    We would need less military in that region
    and that would be very huge by itself.


    Sorry that you don't like my opinion but I see things as they are and try not to let my opinion cloud my judgement. I see the Palestinians as being more terrorist minded than the Israeli's. But LOGIC TELLS ME THE PALESTINIANS GOT SCREWED...HAD THEIR LAND STOLEN...AND WE HAVE NEVER DONE SQUAT ABOUT THE PERSECUTION OF THESE PEOPLE.

    So Americans die left and right because we say one thing for one and do the other as we wish. If I were born Arab/Muslim I would hate us also...logic tells me we have not played fair. My opinion is not as harsh but it's hard to ignore reality when it stares you straight in the face everyday.


    Here is a very well written research paper causing a huge uproar in the scholar community. It's opinion but the facts behind the opinion are good enough to make some stop and think...which is good. NOT MY OPINION...but I post this stuff for discussion purposes.
    http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011/$File/rwp_06_011_walt.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2006
  9. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    To Be Honest I at a certain level I don't care why they hate us. I am not sure you will get the real answer from a poll since the question circumscribe to answers.
     
  10. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    They have every reason to hate us. Let's look at all of the awful things we have done:

    Liberated Western Europe in WWII.
    The Marshall Plan rebuilt europe after WWII.
    We installed democracy in Japan adn help them rebuild their country.
    We stood in the way of the Soviets from taking over Western Europe.
    Our policies, with Reagan leading the way, lead to the collapse of the Soviet Union and many millions of Eastern Eurpoean are now free.
    We liberated Kuwati muslims and kept the Saudi oil fields out of the hands of Saddam.
    We helped starving Somoli muslims
    We stepped in Bosnia and helped Bosnian Muslims while th UN and the Europeans did mostly nothing.
    We stepped in and help ethnic Albanian Muslims in Kosovo when the UN and Europeans did mostly nothing.
    We liberated Afganistan and freed millions of Afgan muslims from the Taliban
    We liberated Iraq and freed millions of Iraqi muslims from the brutal dictator.
    We come in with the most aid when there is a natural diaster. We have helped out millions of Indonesian, Turkish and Pakistani muslims.

    Yup, they sure do have a lot to hate us for.

    Just as soon as "they" get into another mess that they screw up or can handle, they will be looking for the "hated one" to come in a clean up their mess for them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2006
  11. Turk

    Turk Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    We do not have to agree with everything put on paper by everyone, but the article is interesting and based upon a widely accepted fact, and I posted it so that it would open our eyes to an alternate point of view, but hey, why bother reading the article and comment on the contents when it is so much easier to get on the defensive and comment on on the title?
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2006
  12. Turk

    Turk Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    I agree with you,FBN.
    For whatever reason, being critical of Israel and anti-semitism are wrongly viewed as one and the same, by many; I suspect because it serves their purpose to put Israel on such high moral (untouchable) ground.
    While I fully support the right of Israel to exist, I am just as much in support of the Palestinians' right to their homeland, too.
    While I sympathize with the suffering of Jews, I sympathize with that of the Palestinians, too.
    Why would any one group's suffering be more important than any other?
    It is mind boggling to me that of all the peoples in the world, it is the Israeilis inflicting this type of oppression upon another people, when it is they that will never let anyone in the world forget, how wrong the very same thing is.
    The Jewish lobby's size and influence in this country is beyond comparison to any other, to the degree that one cannot even call it a lobby any more; it is part of our way of life, which sometimes is a hindrance, hence the current state of affairs with the Muslim world.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2006
  13. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    I did read the article. My post was intended to "open the eyes" of what is real and what is perception.

    That whole article could be summerized in one word: jealousy.

    I don't want to have our country change because of jealousy.

    But you can bet the next time there is a mess in the world, we will be called to take care of it. When are we ever going to open our eyes.
     
  14. Turk

    Turk Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Even though that was not my take on it, you are certainly entitled to your opinion and my comment was not directed at you, if it sounded that way I am sorry.
    Here is who it was directed at:

    Harry Boy- I posted my "thoughts" on the TITLE OF THE THREAD, that being, "WHY DO THEY HATE US"
     
  15. Mainefan

    Mainefan Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    I'm sure it's against the rules to double post, but I think I put this on the wrong thread...

    I absolutely agree that it is fair game to discuss Israeli policy and US policy toward Israel without being in the least anti-Semitic. I've criticized both myself and I'm Jewish and many Jews have done the same...

    That said, it's worth putting yourself in Israel's shoes for a bit. Israel is paranoid and with good reason. First, many of its citizens have first hand seen the genocidal aspects of anti-Semitism. Second, Israel is a very tiny country. In the early years, if the Arabs could ever have gotten their act together, they could have overrun the entire country in a matter of hours.

    Now, as for the US position. What is the right attitude toward Israel? Toward the Palestinians? Does any American doubt that we'd like to see peace in the region, and two separate states, living in peace, if not harmony? I think it's pretty obvious and it should be obvious to the Arab nations as well.

    Do we favor Israel? Yes. But we do not favor an Israeli victory in the Middle East, only Israeli prosperity and survival. The Arab and Islamic nations neighboring Israel have populations of tens of millions and they sit on incalculable wealth.

    Israel has a population of 6.2 million, including more than a million Arabs. It has no oil wells, in fact, no natural wealth except for the talents of its citizens. It is also the Middle East's only Democracy. But given the hostility of its neighbors, it could not survive without our military help.

    So we give the necessary military aid and Israel sometimes uses it in ways we don't approve of. But Israel is not the 51st state. It is a sovereign country, governed not by us but by its own people, and they act in the interests of their country as they see those interests.

    Their interests do not always coincide with ours. But then, can't that be said of all of our allies? We agree on a great deal, and disagree as well. However, even single individuals can contain conflicted opinions within their own skulls--so it should be no surprise that nations, even friends, don't always agree.

    We could, I suppose, tell Israel no more arms if you don't sit down and sign what we think is a good peace treaty with the Palestinians. After all, Israel is not in a position to defy us. We are its only significant source of arms. But to what extent does that give us the right to dictate its foreign policy?

    The bottom line is, we are heavily invested in Israel in just about every way you can name: militarily, politically, economically, historically, psychologically, and even emotionally. It is not just our single ally in the region, it is our protégé, almost our offspring.

    And so the consequences of allowing it to be defeated and overrun would bee far-reaching, and not just in the Middle East. That event would have a profound effect on how we (and the rest of the world) view us as a nation. In my opinion, it would be an indelible stain on our integrity and our moral stature. We would have trouble claiming to be the world's beacon of freedom, and convincing anyone that our word mattered.

    The current generation of Americans did not volunteer to be part of this situation. We inherited it, as we have inherited so much else--our values, our form of government, our image of ourselves as a country. Our support of Israel has become, for better or worse, an integral part of who we are as a nation. In my opinion, supporting Israel is an admirable act, despite the troubles that come with it.

    Is our support for Israel the most far-reaching bone of contention between us and the Muslim states? I don't think so. It's true that thousands of Palestinians were forced to (or chose to) leave Israel when it was founded, and they have a legitimate complaint, a complaint which, by the way, the rest of the Muslim world has not addressed.

    But how far back in history should we go to address the complaints of people who got a bad deal? After all, Israel was the Jewish homeland for thousands of years before they were forced to leave it. Which claim to this pathetic little strip of land is more valid? Before we answer that question, we'd better give some thought to the claims of the Native Americans and the African slaves.

    But as I said, I don't think Israel is the precipitating factor in our current conflict with the Muslim world. I think that Western culture is the real battleground. It's bad enough, from the standpoint of the traditional Muslim, that Western countries thrive despite the fact that they don't worship Allah and indeed have written into law a thousand doctrines that conflict with Muslim law, even mock it.

    What is really unbearable is that Western culture is highly contagious. It spreads easily, overwhelming whatever other cultures it contacts--including traditional Muslim culture, and it does so on the doorsteps of these cultures. It crosses the oceans with alacrity. It flies through the skies on the wings of our technology and our business dominance.

    Fundamentalist Muslims aren't blind or stupid. They have seen the danger to their own values, their own way of life, their own religious beliefs, and they have accurately assessed it. They have concluded that if not fought with everything they have, it will destroy them. Utterly and forever. Indeed, the process is already far advanced. I would guess most know it is a losing battle.

    So what we are facing is a wounded animal on the verge of extinction, fighting for its life as though it has nothing to lose, which is an accurate assessment. It wants us--not just the US, but the West--out of Muslim territory and it wants us to take our culture with us. (And it hates Israel, because, in addition to everything else, Israel is an outpost of that culture.)

    It is a horrendous reality, from the Muslim point of view, that the rest of the world is filled with prospering unbelievers. But it is absolutely intolerable that these unbelievers come to the Muslim world, to enchant and mislead the people so that they abandon their traditional beliefs.

    And the solution? The real solution is time. All you have to do is skim through history to see that in 20 or 30 years, everything in the Middle East will have changed--evolved--into something entirely different. It's happened a hundred times in that very place.

    But for now, we're doing just about the only thing we can, which is to make sure Israel is never seriously threatened and to bend our efforts toward a peace everyone can live with. The best way to deal with people who think they have nothing to lose is to give them something to lose and make sure they don't want to lose it.

    We're seeing that right now in Palestine, even with the sworn enemy of Israel, Hamas. Yes, it wants to liquidate Israel--but not as much as it wants to have a country of its own, to govern it successfully and to provide for its people. In that sense, it was very useful that Hamas won the Palestinian election, because the victory saddled it with the responsibility for a nation, a responsibility it must exercise with reasonable wisdom or lose office.
     
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  16. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    I think you may be correct with that..would have been good IF a Palestinian state had been created at the same time Israel was..odd that the line on thinking is back toward that. ..there's a lot there besides..including Vietnam and the US backing of many regimes of terror..like the Shah. It has been in decline for awhile and no one here really cares how America is looked at.
     
  17. PatsFanInVa

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    Odd my big white furry behind.

    First Partition, 1922: Partitions the Palestine mandate into a Judenrein (Jew-free) nation of Transjordan on the East Bank, and the smaller Palestine mandate from the West bank to the Mediterranean, where Jews are permitted to settle. Transjordan is created in order to allay Arab fears regarding Jewish settlement.

    Royal Partition Plan, 1937: Accepted reluctantly by Ben Gurion. Rejected by Arab side, which insisted that no Jewish state could be recognized. Therefore no Arab state could be created, which was side-by-side with a Jewish state.

    UN Partition, 1948: After Palestinian leadership spends WWII allied with Nazi Germany, and the Mufti flees the country to evade war crime trial, Palestine (naturally) is offered statehood. Again, the Israelis recognize the two-state solution. Israel is invaded by armies from five separate Arab nations. Palestinians largely obey the advice of invading Arab armies to stay clear of the fighting (which is being done for them.)

    The point here is that a Palestinian state was created and handed to this "nationality" time after time. It is never enough. They must have the whole land. And while Palestinians build objection on top of objection, Israel has built a modern state.

    Should Palestine be a state? Yes. Will they be? If they accept it, and accept the neighboring Jewish state, yes. Has this been out of their control in the past? No. In the immortal words of Mick Jagger,

    "You can't always get what you want.... but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need."

    As to whether all our troubles result from a relationship with our only stable ally in the region, the only democracy in the region, and the nation in the region that has fought the most battles in the "war on terror..."

    I would say, no. It's just possible that our enemies are not the Israelis but the terrorists.

    PFnV
     
  18. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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  19. IcyPatriot

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    #24 Jersey

    Why do they hate us ....

    Well ... perhaps the USA being at the forefront of attacks on Arabs is a good place to start. some of us here can justify it ... but then why doesn't that justification apply to North Korea, to China who kills it's dissidents - Chad, Somalia, Sudan, Guinea, Pakistan ... I could go on.

    How many citizens did Gadaffi kill?

    Some say a few thousand ... Gadaffi says a few hundred.

    I could list more than a few countries who have killed more ... we did not attack.

    I cannot believe Obama was this stupid ... seriously ... no smarter than Bush.

    This country needs to stand up and protest this action ... we got more protests fighting for the unions ... very shameful and they have a right to hate us ... they really do.

    Chalabi duped Bush ... the Arab League duped Obama ... we can do better than this and we should in 2012.

    BTW: You newer people ... one of the best members ever here ... Turk .... great - great poster.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2011
  20. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    The United States of America should not have any troops on Arab soil. Yet there we are, all over that dreadful region....Why?

    Good post IcyPat!
     

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