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Why Do Some Christian Churches not Consider a Catholic a Christian?

Discussion in 'Religion and Lighthearted Discussion' started by IcyPatriot, Jul 23, 2014.

  1. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Hear this the other day from a friend who has a kid getting married. the girlfriend is some variety of Christian and the guy is a Catholic and her church will not marry them ... says the guy is not a Christian. I'm like does she belong to some cult church?

    I always thought Catholics were the 1st Christians. I'm no religious expert and I had a few obnoxious born again Christian friends in my day. I Googled this and read a variety of answers ... not many of them seem solid. I'm thinking this girl has to be a born-again because they generally think they are the best Christians ... well at least from my experiences that's how I felt. You need to be a sinner to be a better Christian was my take on their faith.
     
  2. RI Patriots fan

    RI Patriots fan In the Starting Line-Up

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    Some evangelicals do see Catholics as not "saved". They believe that one is "saved" by accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior and that when someone is saved they are always saved.....they can never lose their salvation regardless of what they might do.

    Catholics believe that they are saved by grace.....a free gift given by God. First, we are "justified" by sanctifying grace which repairs the divide of original sin between God and man. This sanctifying grace is normally given through the sacrament of baptism. Unlike evangelicals though, Catholics believe that they can lose their salvation through "mortal" sin. Catholics also believe that one must be "sanctified" (made holy) to attain the beatific vision (heaven). Those souls which are justified (without mortal sin) but with venial(lessor) sins on their soul and/or concupiscence (disordered desires) will be purified in Purgatory. Evangelicals reject this entirely.

    As Catholics we believe that we cooperate with the actual grace that is given us to become sanctified. Evangelicals see this as Catholics attaining salvation by "works" and degrading the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.

    This is why some evangelicals don't see Catholics as chrisitans.
     
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  3. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Way better answer than any I saw ... thanks.
     
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  4. RI Patriots fan

    RI Patriots fan In the Starting Line-Up

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    You're welcome.
     
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  5. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #75 Jersey

    The idea that Catholicism is "the original church" is a contentious issue that would require it's own thread (if not a separate forum), but that is separate from the idea that Catholics aren't Christian. I think the fundamental issue is misunderstanding some of the Catholic beliefs (transubstantiation) and concern about the veneration of Mary, praying to Mary and the Saints, calling priests "Father", purgatory, a few others. The idea that this means they are thereby "not Christian" is not shared by all Protestants.

    This is a two-way street, though. My own wife was not going to be allowed to act as a Godmother to her nephew because she no longer attended a Catholic church. Out of all of her siblings my wife is the only one who actually attends church on Sunday, but the church that the others were not attending was the "right" one. She actually started going back to the church she was raised in (with the intention of going back permanently) but after awhile it just wasn't working for her and she came back to the dark side.

    Non-Catholics are also not allowed to take Communion.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  6. Boogs

    Boogs 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    My question would be this: Why does the pastor say the guy is not a Christian? Just because your parents took you to church (Catholic or Protestant) as a kid, does not mean you are a Christian. I believe that requires us to repent of our sins, have a personal relationship with Jesus, acknowledging that his sacrifice on the cross paid the price for our sins. You may not be hearing the whole story. Who knows, the guy may have some other issues that came up in counseling and the pastor wants no part in marrying this couple. Maybe you know or can find the answer to that?
     
  7. RI Patriots fan

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    Ignatius of Antioch

    "Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

    The Martyrdom of Polycarp

    "And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]).

    The Muratorian Canon

    "Besides these [letters of Paul] there is one to Philemon, and one to Titus, and two to Timothy, in affection and love, but nevertheless regarded as holy in the Catholic Church, in the ordering of churchly discipline. There is also one [letter] to the Laodiceans and another to the Alexandrians, forged under the name of Paul, in regard to the heresy of Marcion, and there are several others which cannot be received by the Church, for it is not suitable that gall be mixed with honey. The epistle of Jude, indeed, and the two ascribed to John are received by the Catholic Church (Muratorian fragment [A.D. 177]).

    Tertullian

    "Where was [the heretic] Marcion, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago—in the reign of Antonius for the most part—and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherius, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 30 [A.D. 200]).

    Cyprian of Carthage

    "They alone have remained outside [the Church] who, were they within, would have to be ejected.
    . . . There [in John 6:68–69] speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ. The people joined to the priest, and the flock clinging to their shepherd in the Church. You ought to know, then, that the bishop is in the Church and the Church in the bishops; and if someone is not with the bishop, he is not in the Church. They vainly flatter themselves who creep up, not having peace with the priest of God, believing that they are secretly in communion with certain individuals. For the Church, which is one and catholic, is not split or divided, but is indeed united and joined by the cement of priests who adhere to one another" (Letters 66[67]:8 [A.D. 253]).



    http://www.catholic.com/tracts/what-catholic-means
     
  8. The Brandon Five

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    #75 Jersey

    Catholic vs. catholic. I am sorry that you don't recognize that this is a matter that is debated, but it is.
     
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  9. RI Patriots fan

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    I understand that it is debated just really poorly by one side. Clearly, the term was used to describe the church in the early centuries especially in regards to heretical movements. There was never a christian church that was catholic and then a Roman Catholic church. I have challenged evangelicals time after time to show me this "church that was catholic" that was distinct from the Catholic church and outside of some outlier examples (spread out over hundreds of years) of some individual Catholics who disagreed with the church on some teachings (yet agreed with the church on everything else) I have yet to find any trace of it.



    "The term "Catholic" is in the Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian creeds, and many Protestants, claiming the term for themselves, give it a meaning that is unsupported historically, ignoring the term’s use at the time the creeds were written.
    Early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly, a Protestant, writes
    : "As regards ‘Catholic,’ its original meaning was 'universal' or 'general.' . . . in the latter half of the second century at latest, we find it conveying the suggestion that the Catholic is the true Church as distinct from heretical congregations (cf., e.g., Muratorian Canon). . . . What these early Fathers were envisaging was almost always the empirical, visible society; they had little or no inkling of the distinction which was later to become important between a visible and an invisible Church" (Early Christian Doctrines, 190–1).
    Thus people who recite the creeds mentally inserting another meaning for "Catholic" are reinterpreting them according to a modern preference, much as a liberal biblical scholar does with Scripture texts offensive to contemporary sensibilities."


    http://www.catholic.com/tracts/what-catholic-means
     
  10. The Brandon Five

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    #75 Jersey

    Sorry, but I don't consider you to be a qualified lexicographer. I do have a friend who is one at Merriam-Webster, here's what they say:

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/catholic
     
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  11. RI Patriots fan

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    I'm not denying that "catholic" means universal. I'm saying that the early church used that word (meaning universal) to name their church.....to differentiate it from other heretical movements. All the sacraments that we see today in the RCC were practiced by the "Catholics" in those early centuries.

    The use of the word "Catholic" clearly demonstrate church fathers using it to identify the church. Show me one example of a church father saying that "catholic" shouldn't be used to name the church.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014

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