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Why do people still think Pats will draft a Day 1 LB?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by tombonneau, Feb 25, 2007.

  1. tombonneau

    tombonneau Rookie

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    I don't get it. Year after year, people say LB is a position NE needs to get younger in. Year after year, mock drafts have NE drafting a LB in R1 or R2 (or both!). Year after year, fans salivate over drafting LB [insert name here] in the first round.

    Year after year, NE doesn't draft any LBs. (Save for late round scrubs.)

    It simply is not the team's philosophy when it comes to LBs. You know what BB would rather do than draft a LB early? Sign a 44-year-old out of retirement to play ILB.

    BB's concept of the LB is to rotate in vets every couple of years. Sprinkle in the occassional 3-4th year guy in FA (Vrable, Colvin, [cringe] Beisel) and that's that.

    So please, no one panic or freak out when we draft some LB in the 6th round from Tulip Petal St. and sign a couple of ho-hum vet LBs in FA. It is what it is and likely won't change.
  2. Keegs

    Keegs Rookie

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    weren't we pretty much guaranteed to draft Bobby Carpenter if he was available last year?

    I remember all that talk about Vrabel working out with him.

    Or was that all b.s. too?
  3. R_T26

    R_T26 Banned

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    In Patriot Reign it even states the Pats would of been willing to trade up for Vilma, so yes they would draft an LB in the first round. it just has to be the right guy. Last offseason people said the Pats would'nt draft an RB in the 1 st round, and yet they did.
  4. pheenix11

    pheenix11 Rookie

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    I'm hoping for another day 1 TE. Screw WR's, who needs them. We can run the first 4 TE set. :)
  5. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This is undoubtedly the year.

    Not only are the LBs getting older, but there simply aren't as many there. McGinest, Phifer, Johnson, etc. need physical replacements.
  6. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    I agree BB definitely likes veterans at the position. and I am one that doesnt think the LB situation is as bad as people make it out to be. We have Three talented smart veterans all we need to do is round out the position for rotational and depth purposes. with that said these guys arent getting younger and I think people want an LB in the draft because youth represents future and our three guys represent the present.
  7. broadwayjoe

    broadwayjoe Rookie

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    Thats exactly right the Pats tried the veteran and lower round picks on running backs before also and last year they finally used a first round pick on LoMo so its getting close to time to use a first rounder on a Linebacker especially since we have two #1 picks and I feel a good linebacker will be there this time just like Manny Lawson was last year but Maroney was to good to pass up at that point in the draft.
  8. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I thought last year was undoubtedly the year when there was actually a strong year for LB. We passed on Manny Lawson, for instance.

    Could we take a day one LB ? Yes. But I'll believe it when I see it.
  9. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Good question.

    Call it hopelessness, call it crazy or a pipe dream but I have been on the CB and LB bandwagon for the past 4 years... to very little ad veil, sigh...

    This must be the year! maybe not, how about a TE and a Guard?

    The article from Kevin Rousseau "Friends don't let friends watch the draft" is an all time classic, sums up my thoughts perfectly.

    Our lack of speed and depth was exposed against Indy, so I know this is wacky but I do expect a Day 1 and a Day 2 LB to be drafted with the rotation looking something like this:
    ROLB - Colvin, Woods
    RILB - Veteran FA, Mays
    LILB - Bruschi, Alexander, Draft Pick
    LOLB - Vrabel, Draft Pick

    Plus maybe one more spot for a special teamer like Izzo... but we shall see.




  10. tombonneau

    tombonneau Rookie

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    Does anyone have a link to FA LBs?
  11. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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  12. PatsSteve1

    PatsSteve1 Rookie

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    I don't really care how the Patriots upgrade the LB position, whether thru FA or the draft or both. The Patriots have some positions it's not likely they'll tray to upgrade, but I'd like to see them upgrade every position. That's how you get better. Upgrade as many positions as possible.
  13. GHOSTOFSAMGASH

    GHOSTOFSAMGASH Rookie

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    Why would they not draft a first day LB?, because they havent before its apparent to us and prob even more apparent to the coaching staff that depleted and old LB corps is the reason the Patriots did not reach and win the SB. so dont be surprised if they draft at least one, even if a big name FA is signed.:rocker:
  14. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    NE has drafted LBs in the first round, the most recent being Katsenmoyer. WMG was drafted #5 overall.

    Bull. All you know is that NE hasn't drafted a LB in the first round since Katzenmoyer.

    Just because BB hasn't drafted a LB in the first round with the Pats doesn't mean he won't. What knd of thinking is that? Up unitl last year BB hadn't drafted a RB in hte first round for NE. And before Mankins he had never drafted a OT or OG in the first round. And before he drafted Graham he had never draftd a TE in the first round.

    BB has had a total of six drafts with the Patriots. He hasn't had enough drafts picks to draft one of every position. So it it total horsecrap to say he has never drafted a LB, S, CB, WR or QB in the first round, and therefore he never will because it is his philosophy. Didn't mankins teach you anything?

    All you know is that he hasn't drafted one YET. Just like in 2006 BB had never drafted a RB in the first round for the Pats. Or before Mankins he had never drafted an OG in the first round for the Pats,or in 2002 he had never drafted a TE in the first draft for the Pats. Until he drafted Seymour, he had never drafted a DT in the first round.
  15. Jimke

    Jimke Rookie

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    The Pats have not paid much attention to drafting linebackers

    since Bill Belichick has been head coach, but our linebackers have never

    played so poorly that the team gave up 32 points in one half of a

    football game. This better be the year we draft linebackers or have

    a hell of a free agency and pick up a couple.
  16. tombonneau

    tombonneau Rookie

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    First off, thought it was clear I was talking about BB/SP regime; what Grier/Carroll did was the Dark Ages and is irrelevant.

    And forget 1st round -- I'm talking first day.

    Its not like this is a unique situation; every year for the past 3-4 years, the Pats "need" to get younger at LB and have never invested a remotely high draft pick.

    Its not like we only have 1-2 drafts to use as historical evidence. We have something like 7. Is it possible they will draft a LB in Day 1? Of course it is.

    But I'd say it is unlikely.

    About the only way the "well BB hadn't drafted an X before Player Y" game even almost works is the drafting of an interior lineman (Mankins) in the first. BB had gone on (or off?) record saying that the position simply did not merit that high of an investment, then went counterpoint with Mankins.

    I think that BB requires a high level of intelligence/experience for his LBs and would prefer to use veteran players. His drafting and FA history support this stance.
  17. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well, a few things. The first is that each year Belichick seems to debunk another myth about the Pats drafting style.

    In 2004, It was the Pats wouldn't draft another TE early because they already had Graham. Also, in 2004 was the myth that BB wouldn't draft juniors because, until that point, BB had drafted all of 1 (Patrick Pass). In 2004, he drafted Wilfork, Hill, and PK Sam.

    In 2005, the myth BB debunked was that the Pats wouldn't draft an O-lineman in round 1, let alone a interior lineman. Because "Guards are a dime a dozen". We all know that the Pats drafted Mankins with the intent of him replacing Andruzzi.

    In 2006, The myth was that the Pats wouldn't draft a RB in the 1st round because BB had never done so since his days with Cleveland when they drafted "Touchdown" Tommie Vardell. We all know what happened. BB drafted Maroney.

    So, that is why there is still talk about LBs on day 1. The OTHER reason that there is talk about LBs on day 1 is because in 2004 the Pats still had Bruschi and Ted Johnson on the interior with Vrabel as a back-up. In 2005, the Pats didn't have Bruschi or Johnson and were left with Chad Brown and Monty Beisiel. In 2006, the Pats had Bruschi and Seau, but then Seau went down and the Pats had no one to cover a TE or RB out of the backfield.

    At some point, the Pats need to develop their own talent here. Now is as good of time as any. There are several blue-collar prospects and a couple of blue-chip ones who could, very well, excel in the Pats system. The Pats can easily sign a vet free agent as a stop-gap measure while the rookie comes along. But, lets face it. Bruschi has lost more than a step. Seau did well until he got hurt, but he's 38. Vrabel isn't very good in coverage and, was adequate at ILB.
  18. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    BB has been on several teams that have drafted LBs in the 1st round. Back with the Giants, they drafted Carl Banks in the 1st round. Back during his last year in Cleveland, the Browns chose Carl Powell in the 1st round. Granted, Powell ended up becoming a DT, but he was originally drafted as a OLB/DE.
  19. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    The Patriots don't have a strict draft philosophy of "we will never do this or that." That's ridiculous. While it's true they perhaps see less value in drafting LB's high, there is ample evidence that they have thought about doing so before - including LAST year with Manny Lawson. Where have you been? You might want to read "Patriot Reign," as well, since a guy who was IN THE WAR ROOM told the story about them having Jonathan Vilma (and DJ Williams) high up on their board.

    Try again.
  20. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    "Why do people still think Pats will draft a Day 1 LB?"


    Fair question. Some reasons, off the top of my head:

    - Because it's the biggest hole on the team. LB is the only position missing a starter altogether, and Eric Alexander and Pierre Woods are the primary backups.

    - Because the Patriots do draft to plug holes. (See Mankins, Logan et al).

    - Because even if they pick up a solid FA or 2, at least 3 of their 4 starters will be over 30 entering the season.

    - Because the LB talent in this draft is pretty good but not deep, so if you want anybody with the rare physical/mental makeup of a 3-4 LB you'd better act fast.

    - Because we're talking about a team that "reached" for a guard in the 1st and a placekicker in the 4th, so forget about rules.

    - Because one thing we do know is that BB places a premium on "rare body types" like NT, DE, TE, LT...and OLB.

    - Because the Patriots have 4 day-1 picks.
  21. GHOSTOFSAMGASH

    GHOSTOFSAMGASH Rookie

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    It is a shame the combine is probably going to make Zak Deossie go from a day 2 pick possibly up to round 2 or 3, BB had gone to watch him play personally and probably thought that he would be able to steal him with a 5th or 6th round pick but ever since the shrine game has stock has just continued to go up :mad:
  22. tombonneau

    tombonneau Rookie

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    I agree with all those reasons and hope that the Pats grab a LB in the 1st or 2nd. But it probably won't happen.

    I wish I could convince myself into thinking that bc the team ID'd Vilma (a top 10 -12 pick) as an elite LB and targeted him that this means they will take a LB early. But this more likely proves the rule -- that it would take an elite and unique specimen like Vilma for the Pats to take a LB in the 1st.
  23. JDP111

    JDP111 Rookie

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    I think the Pats will be best served making a strong run at AT, I think that getting Thomas minimizes the risk at a position of need in our defense. Keep the draft picks to upgrade the DB's. Add another corner, perhaps McCauley, and if Griffin was there at 24, I'd love to see the Pats take him. He seems to be a ballhawk and has the athleticism/strength to both support the run, and to defend the pass. However, if Willis fell to the Pats, I think it would be very tough for the Patriots not to take him; although I think Willis is off the board at that point, probably to Miami.
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2007
  24. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Our favorite spring crap shoot, how will the Pats see and address the holes we see as fans. Vilma is an excellent talent, but since he's a Jester I enjoy watching him disappear when one of the OLs get their hands on him. As much as I like the consensus "studs" like Willis and Posluzney, I'm just not convinced backers who look like they're maxed out near 240 lbs are the solution to the Pats needs no matter how talented.
  25. captain stone

    captain stone Rookie

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    How do you sort by position on this dam thing? I have no idea how this works.

    Edit: Nevermind. I think I have a handle on it now, although how do you turn off Quick Cell? I accidently erased 2 cells in the D column, and when I tried to type "LB" in them, the letters became bold and 1 size too big (14 instead of 12).
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2007
  26. Gon_Trevil

    Gon_Trevil Rookie

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    Not flaming or anything, but what's your basis for saying Willis looks maxed out at 240?

    While I'm on that note, does anyone know of a good place or a good way to find out how players progress in terms of strength and weight from the day they're at the combine to the day they have 3-5 years in the league? I remember Bellichick mentioning that one of the biggest hurdles to overcome for rookies is their lack of physical strength as compared to some of the older guys in their primes (I believe he was talking about how Ryan O'Callahan was an exception to that rule).
  27. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Looking at Willis' build when they showed him at the weigh-in, and when he was at the Senior Bowl, I just don't see a lot of room to pack on more muscle. I'm looking at Sartz on screen as I type this, he's tall and skinny, there's room for a Woicik to build him up more. Obviously, it's a subjective assessment supplemented by my advanced degree in couch tater. ;)
  28. PromisedLand

    PromisedLand Virtual Internet Person

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    Straight from the coach's mouth

    BB is on the record as saying he doesn't like to use inexperienced players at positions that involve a lot of on-field decision making. He is also on record as explaining that the closer to the center of the field you line up, the more on-field decision making is required - especially behind the front lines. Thus, the QB position on offense and the middle linebackers and safeties on defense do the most on-field decision making. This is his own explanation for why he doesn't generally use high draft picks on these positions.

    If you look at the starting linebackers in the BB era, we have:

    Tedy Bruschi - low round pick, played DE in college, had 6-7 years experience before he became a starter

    Mike Vrabel - mid-range free agent pickup, experience in 3-4

    Rosy Colvin - high-price free agent pickup, pass rushing specialist who had demonstrated high success in the NFL.

    Willie McGinest - very high draft pick (#4 overall) inherited from previous regimes, played down lineman before transitioning to linebacker, several years experience before BB got him.

    Ted Johnson - high draft pick, inherited from previous regimes, several years experience before BB got him.

    Roman Phifer - very experienced veteran free agent pickup who played for BB for the Jets.

    Bryan Cox - see Phifer

    Jr. Seau - future hall-of-famer, 16 or 17 years experience before coming to Patriots, playing in 3-4 under BB disciple Nick Saban.

    TBC - backup who became a starter only after an injury to Seau, and only in his 5th year in the league.

    Chad Brown, Monty Beisel - experienced free-agent pickups, neither worked out but that doesn't change BB's philosophy.

    (Did I miss anyone?)

    Anyway, by now you should be seeing a pattern here. That's not to say the BB won't use a high draft pick on a linebacker, but it would have to be a guy who BB feels is exceptional in many ways, including his ability to fit into our system.
  29. tombonneau

    tombonneau Rookie

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    Re: Straight from the coach's mouth

    Thanks for explaining in detail the exact point I was trying to make. (Only better.) ;)
  30. PromisedLand

    PromisedLand Virtual Internet Person

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    Re: Straight from the coach's mouth

    No problem, buddy. :)

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