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Why Didn't America Listen to FDR?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatriotsReign, Jun 6, 2012.

  1. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    The following is a quote from a letter written by FDR on August 16, 1937.

    "All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management.

    The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations.

    Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees.

    A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable."


    Franklin D. Roosevelt: Letter on the Resolution of Federation of Federal Employees Against Strikes in Federal Service

    He was clearly against collective-bargaining for public union employees for very well-stated reasons.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2012
  2. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Aren't public employees entitled to decent wages? Most public employees don't make fortunes, and where some do something needs to be done. But, most public employees are ordinary members of the middle class, not living in luxury, but living with reasonable degree of comfort.
     
  3. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    Same reason they didn't listen to Ike:

    ...In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
    We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together.

    Eisenhower warns us of the military industrial complex. - YouTube

    Used to be that we just didn't always do what we were told- even if it was for our own good. Now, we pretty much do what we were told.

    The government employees are unionized because the courts said they could.
     
  4. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    And if they don't get the wages they want, they can quit and get another job just like most people.

    The conflict of public unions negotiating with politicians is not in the PUBLIC'S best interests and the public's best interest is the responsibility of all politicians...not the needs of public employees.

    Do you have any direct counter-points to FDR's concerns?
     
  5. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    We're not discussing the military-industrial complex in this thread...just the conflict of public union collective bargaining and politicians.

    Nice try though....

    As a tax-paying voter, I don't want my politicians negotiating contracts with public unions and then attempting to gain their support. What are your thoughts on that statement?
     
  6. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    Government employess are more important than other employees? Carpenters, nurses, teachers, ...they are all allowed to unionize and city clerks, water department engineers, and police should be forbidden to unionize? Why? Either you don't think anyone should unionize or you think government workers are much more critical to society. But that would work against the philosophy of the right that states that government workers are a waste and should be privatized. If you value someone so highly that they should never be allowed to strike, then you better pay them accordingly. That's the big connundrum, right?
     
  7. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    I thought the question was "Why didn't we listen to FDR?" Yes. That was the question.

    My thoughts on your statement are that you are entitled to them, but you use a big brush to paint this subject. What goes on in Rhode Island, Mississippi, and Massachusetts are three different sets of dynamics. RI is apparently struggling with a culture of corruption that runs very deep. Mississippi deals on a daily basis, with a culture of ignorance and stupidity that handcuffs them on many levels. Massachusetts deals with a culture of commonwealth mentality that operates with a decidedly socialist bent. High taxes, many public services, amazing medical system (which I know is the envy of the rest of the country), great schools and kickazz professional sports teams. So I mostly reject your statement because it is too broad and vague. No offense. Just need more definition.
     
  8. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    Wistah...I'm debating from the following perspective:

    -Public sector pensions are out of control (how did they get such incredible pensions?)
    -No one deserves a pension after working just 20 years (military, maybe)
    -States are going bankrupt due to the costs of public sector pensions and life-time health insurance.
    -Pensions are based upon the 3 highest earning years and INCLUDES over-time!
    -We have retired police officers getting over $100k/year pensions!

    Why can't public sector employees be like everyone else in the private sector? In other words, if you don't like what you're paid, do something else.

    We have bus-drivers and toll collectors collecting pensions and abusing sick-leave.

    What private sector unions negotiate with politicians to get their demands? The answer is...no private-sector union negotiates with politicians.

    What do politicians have to gain by pleasing public-sector unions? Do I really have to tell you?
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2012
  9. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    Do you think that dynamic is any different than the one that controls how politicians behave toward the interest of corporations? I gauranty you that if you compared the flow charts and models (if they exist, and I'm sure they must somewhere), they would be identicle in structure with different labels on the inputs. The differnces would be that the politician/corporate values would be vastly larger.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2012
  10. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    I agree with you on that too. But that doesn't mean that both are ok....actually, both are wrong in my op.
     
  11. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Pro Bowl Player

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    they are totally different. the block diagram may appear to be the same, but what is in the block is comepletely different.

    something that can never happen in the private version is having a union in the midst of a negotiation, profess support for one candidate and then the otehr one wins. situations like this are not in the best interest of the common good, and the election of one official versus another should not have the intantaneous ability to impact the manner in which said union has the ability to provide its service.

    the private sector is hugely different in that it acknowledges the concept of long-term viability and common sense in the process of running its businesses.

    The public sector is a mere money grab at the hand of an endless relatively guaranteed revenue stream.

    It is human nature to handle money that is not yours like money that is not yours, and that's what the government does.....
     
  12. patsfan13

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    When people get a choice they don't want unions plain and simple. Since Walker changed the rules and people weren't coerced into being in the Unions the AFSCME has lost ~60% of their members in a year.

    Only 7% of private sector employees are in Unions. The reason the left is upset is that it will hurt the funding they get from union dues being confiscated from workers and funneled to the dem party.
     
  13. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    FDR was absolutely right.

    The argument that we can't trust the government to provide good wages, or a safe working environment for it's employees, and thus need public employee unions, is arguably one of more least intelligent I've ever heard.

    People shouldn't confuse the argument against public employee unions, with the existence of unions in the private sector. They are entirely different with respect to what the debate is. i.e. public vs private enterprise & money.
     
  14. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Public employees are entited to decent wages and I support that. And their wages are as good if not better than most private sector employees. But their benefits far exceed the private sector.

    I'm an elected official of the ward in the town that I live. We just voted on our budget and it went up 10.66% (without my support). Why?

    Because the town employees union would not give an inch on benefits. They get great health insurance and only contribute less than 5%. Disabilty incurance, fully paid. Pensions that they can retire after 25 years at a very nice sum. And many more perks like getting paid for unused sick days!:eek:

    So the elderly person on SS, the young family struggling, the people who have not seen a raise in 3 years will all have to pay for those benefits, that they themselves do not get.

    The wages and benefits of the public employees, local,state, and federal are way out of hand. I want them do do well and make a very good wage but their wages and benefits are crushing budgets.

    This is not the 1970's anymore. Today public employees are the better paid workers in the country. Problem is, they only get paid through taxes that are driving the standard of living of others down.
     
  15. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Where wages and compensation are out of whack they need to brought in line, but frankly the demise of labor unions has appeared to lead to a downward quality of life cycle around the nation, while the wealthy continue to do fabulously well. There are two ways to correct the problem: (1) Cut the wages and compensation for public employees and (2) increase the wages and compensation for everyone else. The latter used to be the model at hand, and that's why we have things like the 40 hour work week, overtime, vacations, minimum wage, etc. The compensation gap, I think, is due to Wall Street, not teacher's unions. But, again, where compensation is truly out of whack, even I support changes.
     
  16. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Unions were needed back in the day. My father was a strong union person.

    But about 25 years ago they had reached their peak and since then have had to do things to justify their exsistance. They have changed from representing their rank and file and now are self serving and power hungry at the top. And part of that self-serving power grab is to use memebers dues, without their permission, for political purposes.

    Teachers are now and have been for the last 20 years, well paid, compared to private sector people of the educational background. Because of unions, the really good teachers get paid the same as a really bad teacher, who should be fired but can't be, with the same edcucation and experience.

    I'm not downing teacher because my wife is one and several of my relatives are teachers. They will say the same thing. So my information is first hand and not talking points.

    We really need to cut back the benefits of public employees for one reason, we just can't afford to do it anymore.
     

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